Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.

Didn't he just say that he doesn't think that there is a way to determine that at this time?

I think maybe Tom is looking for things like Gazans protesting, marching the streets with anti-Hamas signs, etc. maybe

I'm looking for anything remotely like Gazans opposing vicious Islamic terrorists, like the ones they support in their own place.

Where/how would you look exactly? Also, with Hamas in control of the area, are you suggesting Hamas would have a free and open press?

Palestinians have a huge diaspora. There's way more Palestinians living outside Palestine than in it.

There's no shortage of anti-Mullah Iranian organisations and media around the world. Every Islamic country seems to have at least one major expat refugee organisation opposing the regime

The only Palestinian anti Hamas organisations I have seen are funded by Israel. And never seem genuine or active. Not particularly convincing imho.

While the anti Israeli Palestinian organisations are well funded and huge. Well funded by expat Palestinians.

I have seen no evidence that Palestinians genuinely want peace. Based on what I have seem, at best, they seem to be as level headed and realistic neo Nazis who want to exterminate all the Jews

I have a close friend who moved back to Lebanon and now runs a farm. Hezbollah has absolutely wrecked Lebanon and its economy. But who does my friend blame, the Jews. Arabs seem to be all like this. Just a super unhelpful tribal mindset.

 

[steve_bank]

St6arting with the administration of George Washington was the question of what to do with those pesky Indians standing in the way of economic growth and progress.

In the long term the situation was slaughter, starve, and relocate to reservations lacking resources to survive. Genocide.

The idea that an American president today advocates the relocation of p Palestinians in the name of economic gain with no American outcry is another nail in the coffin of America .

In the news Trump suggested Saudi Arabia give land for a Palestinian state, which of course is buttery ridiculous.

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

so, after Trump and Netanyahu bulldoze Gaza, who will own it? uSA or Israel?

Maybe the Trumps and Kushners only need a cut of the resort profits and maybe a couple of Trump Towers but not full ownership.

 

[Arctish]

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

I do.

And not just because I don't believe in Jehovah, or any other 'divine' being who gives out titles and deeds.

 

[DrZoidberg]

St6arting with the administration of George Washington was the question of what to do with those pesky Indians standing in the way of economic growth and progress.

In the long term the situation was slaughter, starve, and relocate to reservations lacking resources to survive. Genocide.

The idea that an American president today advocates the relocation of p Palestinians in the name of economic gain with no American outcry is another nail in the coffin of America .

In the news Trump suggested Saudi Arabia give land for a Palestinian state, which of course is buttery ridiculous.

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

I'm not going to claim that Trump is a genius. But what he's doing is thinking outside the box. He's offering alternative solutions to the problem. When the two sides are locked into position, it can be good to shake it up a bit. I think this is what Trump is doing. He's aproaching international politics as if he's a business man.

If a powerful outsider comes with a rediculous idea, then perhaps the Israelis and Palestinians might get the extra push they need to find a workeable solution.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Netanyahu says Gaza ceasefire will end if Hamas does not return hostages by Saturday - live updates

The Israeli prime minister says the military will "return to intense fighting until Hamas is finally defeated" if the hostages are not freed.

www.bbc.com

Here's Trump saying something intelligent for once. Releasing all hostages should be a prerequisite to enter into any peace talks IMHO

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

I do.

And not just because I don't believe in Jehovah, or any other 'divine' being who gives out titles and deeds.

I have a problem with it, too. But I think like most things it lies on a spectrum. I have a problem with the idea of a hierarchy supported by religion. This goes all the way from the idea that "believers are better people than non-believers" to "we are god's chosen people" to "if they don't leave the land god gave us then they deserve to die" to "kill the non-believers."

 

[ZiprHead]

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership.

How do you know this? Any resistance to HAMAS can get you killed.

 

[ZiprHead]

Hamas don't need majority support from Palestinians. They don't have to face elections; If they have the support of a tiny minority and hold all the weapons, then that's enough to keep them in power. Even if four out of five of "their people" hate their guts.

FTFY

 

[TomC]

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership.

How do you know this? Any resistance to HAMAS can get you killed.

Exactly. All these decades of Islamic terrorists running everything have left the Palestinians in general, and Gazans in particular, believing that violence against Zionists is a good thing.
Even at the cost of living in a welter of chaos and poverty.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The leader of Jordan, having read this thread, is heading to DC to have "WTF?!?!" conversation with President Trump.

During the conversation, it is expected that King Abdullah II will ask President Trump:

• WTF man?!
• Are you insane?!
• Can I please speak to who is actually in charge?

Trump has said Egypt and Jordan should take in more Palestinians, describing the Gaza Strip as unlivable after 16 months of war. He announced last week that the United States would “take over” the territory and turn it into the “Riviera” of the Middle East. But Jordan, whose leader King Abdullah II will meet the president in Washington on Tuesday, has long made its position clear: The displacement of Palestinians to the Hashemite kingdom is a red line.

One problem with Trump is he is a fucking idiot who thinks being asshole is a sustainable strategy. It didn't work in business, but he still does it. This leaves King Abdullah II to not know, what in the hell is going on inside Trump's mind. Permanent displacement of the Palestinians to Egypt and Jordan is problematic for so many reason, however, the highest on the leader's list will be security from the displaced, security from terrorists targeting him to allowing the displacement, and security in his role as leader of the country due to him allowing the displacement. Money isn't too far back as 4th, 5th, and 7th.

He can't abide by this at any level. It endangers him to even consider an agreement! This is obvious to a person who has no formal history training in the area. And most likely anyone in the state department. Trying to force the King into accepting it, what possible good comes from it. The absolute best case is Trump Gaza gets to the razing part before enough contractors are killed and Jordan has ISIS running it. Cutting aid to Jordan would ignore the whole reason we are providing them aid in the first place! It would be ridiculous to consider such a maneuver anything but "fucking reckless" especially as it concerns Israeli security!

 

[steve_bank]

St6arting with the administration of George Washington was the question of what to do with those pesky Indians standing in the way of economic growth and progress.

In the long term the situation was slaughter, starve, and relocate to reservations lacking resources to survive. Genocide.

The idea that an American president today advocates the relocation of p Palestinians in the name of economic gain with no American outcry is another nail in the coffin of America .

In the news Trump suggested Saudi Arabia give land for a Palestinian state, which of course is buttery ridiculous.

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

I'm not going to claim that Trump is a genius. But what he's doing is thinking outside the box. He's offering alternative solutions to the problem. When the two sides are locked into position, it can be good to shake it up a bit. I think this is what Trump is doing. He's aproaching international politics as if he's a business man.

If a powerful outsider comes with a rediculous idea, then perhaps the Israelis and Palestinians might get the extra push they need to find a workeable solution.

I would not have taken you for a war monger.

On the forum we take Christians and Muslims to task for the harm they do and has been done in the name of interpretation of scripture.

I see no reason to give Jews a pass. Right now they get away with it hiding behind antisemitism.

You are not paying attention to the history of the region. The idea is ridiculous because the Arabs and Palestinians will never agree to displacement. Once gone it will be colonized by Israel.

The thing is Palestinians and Jews have a genetic connection. What we call Palestinians have lived there as long as Jews. That is the nature of the conflict, seizure of land by Israel long occupied by non Jews.

 

[ZiprHead]

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership.

How do you know this? Any resistance to HAMAS can get you killed.

Exactly. All these decades of Islamic terrorists running everything have left the Palestinians in general, and Gazans in particular, believing that violence against Zionists is a good thing.
Even at the cost of living in a welter of chaos and poverty.
Tom

Again, How do you know this? Any resistance to HAMAS can get you killed.

 

[laughing dog]

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership.

How do you know this? Any resistance to HAMAS can get you killed.

Exactly. All these decades of Islamic terrorists running everything have left the Palestinians in general, and Gazans in particular, believing that violence against Zionists is a good thing.
Even at the cost of living in a welter of chaos and poverty.
Tom

Got any actual evidence to support your observations?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

This is antisemitic clap trap. And I think anyone who accepts this without first being skeptical and looking it up is in fact antisemitic. In the West we're so willing to believe any lies about Jews.

Israel is a multicultural secular state where all religions, ethnicities and genders are welcome and are protected. Not only by law, but also in practice.

They do have the Jewish right of return. But that policy is the result of antisemitism around the world. Which is a real and ongoing problem. Its so Jews will have somewhere to flee to. If the need arises.

Yes, I know there are Jews have said that Jews have a right to all Palestine. Because Jews are human and have a variety of opinions. But that has never been Israeli government policy. Its not an imperialistic country. It's a country forced to fight for its survival from the moment it was founded.

Anyway... sorry for calling you an antisemite. But I think its necessary to call it out. Now more than ever. Antisemitism goes deep in the West, and so many of us are antisemites without realising it. I'm just a bit better informed because I used to be married to an Israeli Jew.

It's like we're all primed to look for scapegoats

 

[ZiprHead]

The term "Semitic people" is an outdated term that refers to people who speak Semitic languages, such as Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. The term is based on the biblical figure Shem, the son of Noah.

Explanation

• The term "Semitic people" is no longer used outside of linguistics.
  
  
• The term "Semite" was used in the 19th century to group people who spoke Semitic languages.
  
  
• The term "Semite" is considered obsolete and offensive because it was used to justify racism and antisemitism.
  
  
• The term "Semite" was used by European "race scientists" to distinguish Jews from Aryans.
  
  
• • The term "antisemitism" was coined by Moritz Steinschneider in response to the use of the term "Semite".
    
  • Semitic languages include Hebrew, Arabic, Phoenician, Aramic, and Maltese.
    
  • Semitic languages are spoken in parts of western Asia and Africa.
    
  • Semitic languages are important in religious culture, such as Biblical Hebrew in Judaism and Geʿez in Ethiopian Christianity.

So when you diss on the Gazans, you too are being antisemitic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

St6arting with the administration of George Washington was the question of what to do with those pesky Indians standing in the way of economic growth and progress.

In the long term the situation was slaughter, starve, and relocate to reservations lacking resources to survive. Genocide.

The idea that an American president today advocates the relocation of p Palestinians in the name of economic gain with no American outcry is another nail in the coffin of America .

In the news Trump suggested Saudi Arabia give land for a Palestinian state, which of course is buttery ridiculous.

Israeli Zionism claims all of Palestine as Jewish by god given right. Anyone have a problem with that?

I'm not going to claim that Trump is a genius. But what he's doing is thinking outside the box.

Thinking? Putting Jordan and Egypt into a corner, threatening the aid that has kept them sidelined against Israel for 40+ years is thinking? Saying they are going to commit an act of ethnic cleansing to make money is thinking? A plan that won't make it past the "razing" with drones and snipers and bombs killing contractors.

He's offering alternative solutions to the problem. When the two sides are locked into position, it can be good to shake it up a bit. I think this is what Trump is doing. He's aproaching international politics as if he's a business man.

Trump is a poor business man. He only exists because of a public trade offer on what he knew were failing casinos and being able to sell out of them. He is currently trying to do that with Gaza. Sell out the Palestinians... and have Jordan and Egypt pay for it. That isn't thinking outside the box, that is being really stupid.

If a powerful outsider comes with a rediculous idea, then perhaps the Israelis and Palestinians might get the extra push they need to find a workeable solution.

Hamas doesn't want people. Netanyahu doesn't want peace. They don't care what Trump wants.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Netanyahu says Gaza ceasefire will end if Hamas does not return hostages by Saturday - live updates

The Israeli prime minister says the military will "return to intense fighting until Hamas is finally defeated" if the hostages are not freed.

www.bbc.com

Here's Trump saying something intelligent for once. Releasing all hostages should be a prerequisite to enter into any peace talks IMHO

And again, we manage to use the perfect to ruin the pragmatic. Nothing short of all of the hostages should be the deal. But it was never going to be the deal. It is sickening that Hamas is water dripping hostages at 3 a week. But that is 3 a week that have been freed from hell. How much longer should those have waited, so that everyone could be released, perhaps never?

 

[TomC]

Netanyahu says Gaza ceasefire will end if Hamas does not return hostages by Saturday - live updates

The Israeli prime minister says the military will "return to intense fighting until Hamas is finally defeated" if the hostages are not freed.

www.bbc.com

Here's Trump saying something intelligent for once. Releasing all hostages should be a prerequisite to enter into any peace talks IMHO

And again, we manage to use the perfect to ruin the pragmatic. Nothing short of all of the hostages should be the deal. But it was never going to be the deal. It is sickening that Hamas is water dripping hostages at 3 a week. But that is 3 a week that have been freed from hell. How much longer should those have waited, so that everyone could be released, perhaps never?

Personally, I think that Israel should give the Gazans Who Matter (AKA Hamas and their supporters) two days to deliver all the kidnap victims. If GWM choose not to do that, shut off the water and power again until the hostages are freed. If two days later the hostages are not all freed, shut the borders to any incoming aid.

Or will the international community make the perfect the enemy of the good by screaming "collective punishment" while hand waving the source of the problem?
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

Netanyahu says Gaza ceasefire will end if Hamas does not return hostages by Saturday - live updates

The Israeli prime minister says the military will "return to intense fighting until Hamas is finally defeated" if the hostages are not freed.

www.bbc.com

Here's Trump saying something intelligent for once. Releasing all hostages should be a prerequisite to enter into any peace talks IMHO

And again, we manage to use the perfect to ruin the pragmatic. Nothing short of all of the hostages should be the deal. But it was never going to be the deal. It is sickening that Hamas is water dripping hostages at 3 a week. But that is 3 a week that have been freed from hell. How much longer should those have waited, so that everyone could be released, perhaps never?

You're forgetting that Hamas are holding them captive. They can just stop doing that. You make it sound like Hamas is some sort of force of nature.

Israels primary goal must surely be to protect Israeli lives long term. By negotiating they are encouraging Hamas to attack again. Its clear that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives. Which doesn't give Israel much to play with