Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

It is not a simple fact.

Sure it is.

Israel: We'll keep your water and power on if you release the kidnapping victims.
Gaza: No

Pretty easy, if you aren't desperately looking for a way to blame Israel. That does make it complicated.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

It is not a simple fact.

Sure it is.

Israel: We'll keep your water and power on if you release the kidnapping victims.
Gaza: No

Pretty easy, if you aren't desperately looking for a way to blame Israel. That does make it complicated.
Tom

Clipping out part of a response to take it out of context is disingenuous. It dies make it easy to construct straw men. There is no need to resort to such intellectual dishonesty to evade answering a question.


Thankfully, the gov’t of Israel rejects your sociopathic proposal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looks like Bibi has full backing of the apricot to proceed with genocide as planned.

What "genocide"?

People chant it often enough, they end up believing it. Same as the right does with immigration and religious issues.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So why do liberals support oppressive theocratic nations whose unmistakable intent is genocide?

Who is that?

Are they under your bed?

That's so disingenuous on your part.

I am confident you're able to parse things from context, but whatever, I'll go through it.

First off, I am a liberal and an atheist. I'm not some child who yells "BROWN PEOPLE OPPRESSED" just because they're not white. Unlike too many left of center, I don't have a gag reflex agenda. I am utterly puzzled by those who refuse to hold the Arab states responsible for the acts they commit, particularly when they represent the exact opposite of what the left is supposed to stand for.

Not seeing many liberals waving flags of Yemen or the United Arab Emirates.

The Arab nations are a source of the problem and solution in the Middle East. What some people are unwilling to accept is that these nations don't want our condescending guidance, especially with all the baggage the West has in the Middle East. Iraq alone, the US supported a mass murderer who used chemical weapons against the Iranians. Then when the Neocons who supported him thought things were problematic after he invaded Kuwait, we fought against him, which then led him to try a plot to kill President HW Bush. Ten or so years later, the Neocons saw an opportunity to finally get back at him.

This is all happening the backyards of the Arab nations. This stuff is out of sight, out of mind for Americans. Our problem in the Middle East is we have meddled too much in the Middle East. This doesn't make the oil magnates or the extremism that is born in many of these nations angels or people to look up to. But it provides a narrative as to why they pretty much don't give a fuck what we think (as long as we are using enough oil to keep oil prices high enough).

And now Trump is talking about permanently displacing the Gazans so he can make money?! The Arabs don't like us because we've done nothing for them to like them over, and we've done quite a bit for them to despise.

Frankly, the left needs some serious introspection, not snarky unhelpful bullshit. Maybe next time you can pick out a spelling error to dismiss what someone says in a Reddit-like attempt to grab upvotes.

Dude, if we aren't allowed to be snarky, what is the entire point of posting anonymously online?

What you're missing is in thinking that places like Yemen are issues that can be resolved. No, Yemen is a battlefield between Sunni and Shia. You can't resolve a battlefield, you resolve the war that caused the battle. And neither side has the slightest interest in doing so.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So why do liberals support oppressive theocratic nations whose unmistakable intent is genocide?

Who is that?

Are they under your bed?

That's so disingenuous on your part.

I am confident you're able to parse things from context, but whatever, I'll go through it.

First off, I am a liberal and an atheist. I'm not some child who yells "BROWN PEOPLE OPPRESSED" just because they're not white. Unlike too many left of center, I don't have a gag reflex agenda. I am utterly puzzled by those who refuse to hold the Arab states responsible for the acts they commit, particularly when they represent the exact opposite of what the left is supposed to stand for.

Not seeing many liberals waving flags of Yemen or the United Arab Emirates.

The Arab nations are a source of the problem and solution in the Middle East. What some people are unwilling to accept is that these nations don't want our condescending guidance, especially with all the baggage the West has in the Middle East. Iraq alone, the US supported a mass murderer who used chemical weapons against the Iranians. Then when the Neocons who supported him thought things were problematic after he invaded Kuwait, we fought against him, which then led him to try a plot to kill President HW Bush. Ten or so years later, the Neocons saw an opportunity to finally get back at him.

This is all happening the backyards of the Arab nations. This stuff is out of sight, out of mind for Americans. Our problem in the Middle East is we have meddled too much in the Middle East. This doesn't make the oil magnates or the extremism that is born in many of these nations angels or people to look up to. But it provides a narrative as to why they pretty much don't give a fuck what we think (as long as we are using enough oil to keep oil prices high enough).

And now Trump is talking about permanently displacing the Gazans so he can make money?! The Arabs don't like us because we've done nothing for them to like them over, and we've done quite a bit for them to despise.

Frankly, the left needs some serious introspection, not snarky unhelpful bullshit. Maybe next time you can pick out a spelling error to dismiss what someone says in a Reddit-like attempt to grab upvotes.

Dude, if we aren't allowed to be snarky, what is the entire point of posting anonymously online?

What you're missing is in thinking that places like Yemen are issues that can be resolved. No, Yemen is a battlefield between Sunni and Shia. You can't resolve a battlefield, you resolve the war that caused the battle. And neither side has the slightest interest in doing so.

So I was somehow missing that when I stated "The Arab nations are a source of the problem and solution in the Middle East."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestinians aren't being killed because Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians. They're being killed because Hamas, knowing they have no hope of exterminating the Jews like they wished they could, went ahead and attacked Israel, full well knowing what the consequences would be.

Strange. You are saying the Israelies have no choice in the matter, they are automatons simply running the program provided to them by Hamas.

In a sense this is true.

Their choices are fight, thus causing major Palestinian casualties (but not genocide no matter how often Hamas leads you into chanting it) or to die. There is no middle ground no matter how much the leftist faith says there is.

Where you are going wrong is in thinking the actions are driven by sane reason--no, Hamas is driven by Iran. So long as that is so they will be unwilling to make peace and the only answer is to keep smacking them down. Horrible, but so long as the cancer festers there is no other answer.

 

[Elixir]

What "genocide"?

Over 46,000 Palestinians have been reported killed in Gaza as of January 2025, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry. Women and children make up more than half of the fatalities.

THAT genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

ETA: if Trump launched a nuclear strike against China and they retaliated in kind, thereby killing tens of millions of Americans, shouldn't Trump be held responsible for starting that bullshit?

Of course he should because those tens of millions wouldn't have been killed without his idiotic choices.

Yes. And you think that hypothetical is relevant to defending the proposed ethnic cleansing of Gaza because.......?

See, you keep using that term despite the fact that it's not happening….

I didn’t use the term genocide.

This time.

]
The hypothetical works because we would hold Trump responsible for his decisions. Meanwhile, folks like yourself have decided that it's apparently fine for Hamas to attack Israel and that there will be no consequences for that. It is indeed a puzzling position to hold.

Doubly so, because I don’t hold it.

How does it make sense to ethnically cleanse of Gaza (Trump’s wet dream) to hold millions of Gazans accountable for something Hamas did ?

Think we agree with The Felon?!?! We support Israel's right to defend itself but I don't think any of us support what The Felon wants.

 

[laughing dog]

Looks like Bibi has full backing of the apricot to proceed with genocide as planned.

What "genocide"?

People chant it often enough, they end up believing it. Same as the right does with immigration and religious issues.

And defenders of Israel with their "kill or die" view.

 

[TomC]

What "genocide"?

Over 46,000 Palestinians have been reported killed in Gaza as of January 2025, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry. Women and children make up more than half of the fatalities.

THAT genocide.

Oh, you mean the disaster inflicted upon the Gazans by other Gazans.
Still not a genocide when you are talking about a population over 2 million.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Looks like Bibi has full backing of the apricot to proceed with genocide as planned.

What "genocide"?

People chant it often enough, they end up believing it. Same as the right does with immigration and religious issues.

And defenders of Israel with their "kill or die" view.

That's more of a Muslim thing. Zionists are stuck with "fight or die" as a result of violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wrote specifically about Hamas and the support it receives from Iran.

Of course. You have to. The only way any of this works is to look at this incident in a vacuum. That this hatred for Israel and the US grew organically. And if 25 years from now hundreds of tourists at resorts along the beautiful beaches of Gaza get their throats cut by Arab workers we'll again look at the incident in a vacuum.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

The situation did not grow organically, from day 1 the Muslims have been providing the sparks and fanning the fire. The "trigger" was the very creation of Israel--they were attacked before they had done anything but declare their existence. It wasn't that anybody was hurt, it was the existence of a Jewish land in areas they considered long conquered was a horrendous offense to Islam.

 

[laughing dog]

ETA: if Trump launched a nuclear strike against China and they retaliated in kind, thereby killing tens of millions of Americans, shouldn't Trump be held responsible for starting that bullshit?

Of course he should because those tens of millions wouldn't have been killed without his idiotic choices.

Yes. And you think that hypothetical is relevant to defending the proposed ethnic cleansing of Gaza because.......?

See, you keep using that term despite the fact that it's not happening….

I didn’t use the term genocide.

This time.

Please stop promoting falsehoods. Slander is most unbecoming of a moderator.

]
The hypothetical works because we would hold Trump responsible for his decisions. Meanwhile, folks like yourself have decided that it's apparently fine for Hamas to attack Israel and that there will be no consequences for that. It is indeed a puzzling position to hold.

Doubly so, because I don’t hold it.

How does it make sense to ethnically cleanse of Gaza (Trump’s wet dream) to hold millions of Gazans accountable for something Hamas did ?

Think we agree with The Felon?!?! We support Israel's right to defend itself but I don't think any of us support what The Felon wants.

It is what Netanahyu wants as well. Like it or not, by supporting Netanahyu ( a felon in waiting), you very mildly enable that very outcome.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Gazan casualties are entirely the result of the policies and choices made by the Gaza leadership under the duress of decades of oppression and displacement forced upon them by Israeli policies.

That is the part that keeps getting handwaved away.

No. The choices started when Israel announced it's existence, before there was any possibility of oppression. The duress is self-created.

 

[Elixir]

Oh, you mean the disaster inflicted upon the Gazans by other Gazans.

Gazans didn’t kill those civilians, Tom.
Israeli militants did.

“He made me do it!” stopped being a valid excuse when you were in grade school.

 

[TomC]

What "genocide"?

Over 46,000 Palestinians have been reported killed in Gaza as of January 2025, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry. Women and children make up more than half of the fatalities.

THAT genocide.

Leave out the militants and human shields and you probably have a number smaller than the number of kidnapping victims from Israel.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Oh, you mean the disaster inflicted upon the Gazans by other Gazans.

Gazans didn’t kill those civilians, Tom.
Israeli militants did.

“He made me do it!” stopped being a valid excuse when you were in grade school.

Yes, Gazans (and their international supporters) most certainly did.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, you mean the disaster inflicted upon the Gazans by other Gazans.

Gazans didn’t kill those civilians, Tom.
Israeli militants did.

“He made me do it!” stopped being a valid excuse when you were in grade school.

Yes, Gazans (and their international supporters) most certainly did.
Tom

Even the estimates from Israel show that the noncombatant dead are over 10,000.

 

[TomC]

Oh, you mean the disaster inflicted upon the Gazans by other Gazans.

Gazans didn’t kill those civilians, Tom.
Israeli militants did.

“He made me do it!” stopped being a valid excuse when you were in grade school.

Yes, Gazans (and their international supporters) most certainly did.
Tom

Even the estimates from Israel show that the noncombatant dead are over 10,000.

I don't doubt that.
Remarkably restrained considering it's a response to a huge barrage of missiles, murders, and kidnappings.
Launched by Gazans.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Leave out the militants and human shields and you probably have a number smaller than the number of kidnapping victims from Israel.
Tom

Sick. After killing that many people, mostly women and children, that is not just a flimsy unsupported conjecture, it’s a transparent attempt to justify genocide.