Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Jimmy Higgins]

When Israel makes mistakes they admit it and come clean.

I don't recall Israel saying they accidentally shot up an ambulance and then tried to literally cover it up, until after someone else mentioned it.

Shooting up an ambulance with medics in it is awful, but at least can be understood on some level in a an area of hostility. Trying to hide the dead is unforgivable.

 

[Arctish]

The Associated Press has a more detailed account.

Ambulances started heading to Tel al-Sultan at around 3:50 a.m. on March 23, responding to reports of wounded, Jilani said. The first ambulance returned safely with at least one casualty, he said. But, he said, subsequent ambulances came under fire.

His hands trembling, Abed told the AP on Saturday that as his ambulance entered the area, its siren lights were on. “All of a sudden, I am telling you, there was direct shooting at us,” so intense that the vehicle ground to a stop, he said.

A 10-year veteran of the Red Crescent, Abed said he was sitting in the back seat and ducked to the floor. He said he could hear nothing from his two colleagues in the front seat — the only others in the vehicle. They appear to have been killed instantly.
Israeli troops, some with night goggles, dragged Abed out of the ambulance and onto the ground, he said. They made him strip to his underwear, beat him all over his body with their rifle butts, then tied his hands behind his back, he said.

They interrogated him, asking him about his paramedic training and how many people were in the ambulance with him, he said. One soldier pressed the muzzle of his automatic rifle into his neck. Another pressed his knife blade into Abed’s palm, almost cutting it, until a third soldier pulled them away and warned Abed, “They’re crazy.”

Abed said he witnessed them opening fire on the next vehicles to arrive. Soldiers forced him onto his stomach and pressed a gun into his back, he said, and amid the shooting in the darkness, so he could only see two Civil Defense vehicles.

Also, The Guardian reports that

Some of the bodies of 15 Palestinian paramedics and rescue workers, killed by Israeli forces and buried in a mass grave nine days ago in Gaza, were found with their hands or legs tied and had gunshot wounds to the head and chest, according to two witnesses.

Dr Ahmed al-Farra, a senior doctor at the Nasser medical complex in Khan Younis, witnessed the arrival of some of the remains.

“I was able to see three bodies when they were transferred to the Nasser hospital. They had bullets in their chest and head. They were executed. They had their hands tied,’’ Farra said. “They tied them so they were unable to move and then they killed them.”

He provided photographs he said he had taken of one of the dead on arrival at the hospital. The pictures show a hand at the end of a long-sleeved black shirt with a black cord knotted around the wrist.

Another person, an eyewitness who took part in the recovery of remains from Rafah on Sunday, also said they saw evidence of one of the dead having been shot after being detained.

“I saw the bodies with my own eyes when we found them in the mass grave,” the witness, who did not want his name used for his own safety, told the Guardian in a telephone interview. “They had signs of multiple shots in the chest. One of them had legs tied. One was shot in the head. They were executed.”

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The international community effectively does support Hamas. Any actual wrongs by Hamas are tolerated or blamed on Israel, but Israel is automatically assumed guilty of things that are often staged.

I guess we area not to expect anything better from Israel than we get from Hamas.

you're asking us to take as a given something which is not true

Is that projection?
Where is your source saying that "70% of the Gazans killed by Israel since 10/23 are NOT women or children"?
Or were you asking us to take something that is not true, as a given?

In one eye and out the other. I have posted two damning links: amputations on males are way above amputations on females. And kids who lost their father are way above kids who lost their mother. Neither is remotely consistent with 70% women and children.

You know better Loren.
Neither one contradicts or obviates the UN report. Do I have to explain why?
And you STILL have provided only ONE source: Poster Loren Pechtel of IIDB. I may have missed the two links you provided that contradict the UN. If so, mea culpa, and I ask that you re-post them so that their credibility can be compared to that of the United Nations Report.

There is no UN report. That's the Hamas report with a UN label slapped on it.

The point of the two links was showing that the casualty distribution was far from what Hamas claims.

And now we have more problems:

It is now far past time to stop paying attention to the lies of Hamas

The latest revelations ram home the reality: the IDF are killing fewer civilians than other armies do

www.telegraph.co.uk

3,400 of the "dead" vanish. But the total somehow remains the same??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Their choices are fight, thus causing major Palestinian casualties (but not genocide no matter how often Hamas leads you into chanting it) or to die. There is no middle ground no matter how much the leftist faith says there is.

Never mind "leftist faith", recent history says that these are not the only options.

Damn that leftist history, coming here disagreeing with our simplistic demands for violence.

Perhaps we need to kill history too, to stop it from contradicting the propaganda line we need to take in order to justify killing thousands of people (which is technically not genocide, and therefore perfectly OK).

Denying that you're operating on faith doesn't change the fact you are.

You have not presented any reasonable other options.

And you're the one that isn't looking at history--you keep demanding an appeasement approach from Israel.

If "fight" or "die" were the only options in any conflict, the entire world would be at war, or dead.

It's not.

Therefore other options exist.

If you don't understand history, can you at least try to understand some basic logic?

You're showing that there are conflicts in which there are options other than fight or die. That says nothing about any given conflict.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am of course fucking heartbroken at the blatant violation of ceasefire, the hundreds dead, the resumption of war. But in fascist times, empathy makes you an asshole, and I'm tired of fighting.

As always, it's reported as if Israel was the one who did it out of the blue. This is most definitely not out of the blue.

"Out of the blue" is a bizarre way to describe a unilateral violation of a negotiated ceasefire. No, you don't get to violate a supposed truce just because negotiations aren't going your way.

Certain terms were part of the cease fire. Specifically, about return of hostages. Hamas broke those, yet you seem to think that Israel should be expected to continue the ceasefire when what it's based on is broken??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The international community effectively does support Hamas. Any actual wrongs by Hamas are tolerated or blamed on Israel, but Israel is automatically assumed guilty of things that are often staged.

I guess we area not to expect anything better from Israel than we get from Hamas.

you're asking us to take as a given something which is not true

Is that projection?
Where is your source saying that "70% of the Gazans killed by Israel since 10/23 are NOT women or children"?
Or were you asking us to take something that is not true, as a given?

In one eye and out the other. I have posted two damning links: amputations on males are way above amputations on females. And kids who lost their father are way above kids who lost their mother. Neither is remotely consistent with 70% women and children.

. Amputations are generally performed on living beings, so it is not clear how it demonstrates anything about who is killed. In fact, if anything, by itself, the fact amputations on males greatly exceeding those on females tends to confirm the observation that more females are killed than males. The stuff about children who lose one parent or the other is not terribly indicative of anything without more contextual information.

So you really need to show your work if you wish others to find your claims convincing.

What are you smoking??

What is your evidence that deaths trend opposite amputations? Are you saying they let women die when they save men with amputations?

And the stuff about which parent they lost is very damning. Why in the world would that not follow the pattern of parent-age deaths?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.

Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom

It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic. But the displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank to make way for even more settlers should end immediately. Obviously it's fueling the conflict and needs to stop.

Will you be first in like for going to Auschwitz? If you think the Jews should go why not you?

You appear to be saying that if displaced Palestinians return slowly and in stages, and no more Palestinians are displaced to make way for settlers, it's the same thing as Jews being sent to Auschwitz. That argument is so ridiculous I'm kinda surprised I have to address it even after more than 20 years of reading similar claims you've made.

Yes, it is. The government would fall in the next election, Hamas would be elected and carry out their genocide.

Jews don't die when justice prevails. In fact, the opposite happens. Peaceful co-existence might be detrimental to a certain faction's plans to dominate a religious ethno-state but it is beneficial to the people who experience it. As someone who lives in a place where peaceful co-existence is the norm, not the exception, you might have noticed that.

You have some very naive views of what would happen. Peaceful coexistence has never happened, the only question is just how much violence was directed at the Jews. And now that they rebelled and threw off their oppressors they don't dare go back. Think of domestic violence, it's a perfect model for what's happening.

And anyway, your posting history indicates you don't give a fuck when it's Jews moving into settlements in the West Bank where they will be vastly outnumbered by non-Jews, so why the pearl clutching when it's a few thousand non-Jewish refugees returning to their former homes in Israel? Could it be that your argument is nothing but racist fearmongering in defense of preserving the results of ethnic cleansing? It certainly looks that way.

It's not a few thousand, it would be several million.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No people just give a damn about human rights, apparently you don't.

Do you mean those of us who support multiethnic democracy?
Or violent Muslim terrorists?

Because it's pretty obvious to me which side you fall on. Rather like a bunch of other people on this forum.
Tom

The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum support multiethnic democracy.

It's just that some here think they can have one in Israel while carefully controlling the mix of religious communities and ethnicities so that Jews will always occupy the most favorable social position, while others realize that as long as non-Jewish Palestinians are discriminated against, it isn't really the multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity it's claimed to be.

You can't build a just and fair society on a foundation of bias and bigotry. Israel can either be the Jewish State that exists for the benefit of Jews alone, or it can be a multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity to all. Or it can be a partner in peace with a Palestinian State (or more than one), as a way to have its cake and eat it, too.

And you can sooth your conscience and say you didn't intend genocide. Your "morality" is based on actions, not outcomes. We are looking at outcomes and consider your disregard for them to be evil.

What action are you looking at? And what outcome? Be specific.

If it's something historical, cite the historians or link to articles. If it's a current event, link to your news sources.

You want to be fair to the Palestinians. You're completely unwilling to consider that the outcome would be genocide. That's not your action. Thus you're moral.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your primary source isn't. The UN has no ability to measure the deaths and thus can't be a primary source.

If you have a better one, cough it up. They have access to as much data as anyone.

The problem is that there's no real sources. It's almost entirely the violent, self serving, liars that run Gaza making claims.
Tom

The Gazan health ministry is a real source. Distrusting it does not make it less real. I can understanding distrusting any source from that area. Do you happen to have an evidence-driven reason for distrusting the Gazan health ministry's estimates that you would like to share?

The Gaza Health Ministry is Hamas.

And I've already presented the fact that 4,000 of those "confirmed" deaths are either bogus (there is a check digit in their ID numbers) or are of people who died previously. And now they have gone and silently deleted a bunch of the "dead." Yet they didn't change the total.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's a major new development. Gazans have started protesting against Hamas. Still small protests. But perhaps finally the Palestinian support for Hamas is waning. Let's hope

Hundreds join largest anti-Hamas protest since Gaza war began

Masked Hamas militants dispersed protesters who gathered in northern Gaza to rally against the group.

www.bbc.com

Let’s hope this continues. I also assume and hope that the corrupt Netanyahu government has stopped supporting Hamas! (Tonge in cheek there). The war is going to go on until the hostages are released and Hamas is de-armed and dis-banded.

So, it is never going to end.

Why are you so pessimistic about the possibility of Palestinians choosing peace and prosperity over chaos and poverty?
Tom

Because they are poor, hungry, and scared that if Israel doesn't kill them, Hamas or any of the other mobs will... and no one gives a fuck about them.

Your armchair refrain of peace and prosperity comes at the knife's edge and likely to no avail.

Hungry?

فرضتها "حرب الإبادة".. تساؤلات شرعيَّة عن أحكام زكاة المال في غزَّة | فلسطين أون لاين

فرضت حرب الإبادة الإسرائيلية على غزة تساؤلات شرعية حول سلسلة من الأحكام والقضايا المتعلقة بالشهداء والأرامل والأيتام والديون وصولًا لزكاة الأموال للميسورين من أصحاب المال أو المودعة أموالهم في البنوك

felesteen.news

Given how badly it messed up last time I tried to make a translated Arabic link (It appears to be due to mixing left-to-right and right-to left) I'll let you guys do it. Google translate:

Sheikh Ashour pointed out that it is not permissible for the zakat payer to purchase food parcels for the poor from his zakat money, lest the poor person be forced to sell the food parcels for a low price or throw them out into the streets due to their large number, as we saw previously.

In other words, giving poor people food does not fulfill their religious obligation because they very well discard it as useless because they have so much.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's a major new development. Gazans have started protesting against Hamas. Still small protests. But perhaps finally the Palestinian support for Hamas is waning. Let's hope

Hundreds join largest anti-Hamas protest since Gaza war began

Masked Hamas militants dispersed protesters who gathered in northern Gaza to rally against the group.

www.bbc.com

Let’s hope this continues. I also assume and hope that the corrupt Netanyahu government has stopped supporting Hamas! (Tonge in cheek there). The war is going to go on until the hostages are released and Hamas is de-armed and dis-banded.

So, it is never going to end.

Why are you so pessimistic about the possibility of Palestinians choosing peace and prosperity over chaos and poverty?
Tom

The Palestinians have chosen peace and prosperity over chaos and poverty on multiple occasions, at first with their own counter-proposals over the future of Palestine when the British were withdrawing, then most obviously when the Oslo Accords were signed, and again when the PA formally and officially sought a diplomatic solution to the conflict via the UN and the international community. Their choosing the path that leads to peace isn't enough to secure a peaceful outcome, though. The Israelis have to choose to walk that path as well. Right now, the Israelis are on the path of territorial expansion through displacing the non-Jews and enshrining religious bigotry in their Basic Laws. We all know where that path leads.

Maybe you could read up on those greenhouses in Gaza, how they came to be built, how they came to be under Palestinian control, the hopes people had when they invested in growing crops for export, the jobs and economic growth they provided, and how/why it all came to naught. And then maybe you might wonder why the story that gets circulated is anti-Psemitic horseshit about Palestinians destroying their chances at prosperity because they're just so gosh darned angry all the time.

Nope. They never chose peace. They chose sham agreements that they then promptly broke.

And why they came to naught was that Hamas doesn't like prosperity. Hamas shells the checkpoint so Israel pulls it's people under cover and thus closes the checkpoint. There goes the produce. Hamas knew what would happen when they shelled the checkpoint.

 

[Elixir]

And I've already presented the fact that 4,000 of those "confirmed" deaths are either bogus (there is a check digit in their ID numbers) or are of people who died previously. And now they have gone and silently deleted a bunch of the "dead." Yet they didn't change the total.

Intrigue and mystique! I can't wait for the Big Reveal, when they show who did what and how they did it, and the real number of dead Gazan civilianss is revealed to be three dozen including two women and a toddler... or it could be that the ol' Ministry is multiplying everything by ten, and only SEVENTEEN HUNDRED Gazan children have been killed rather than the 17,000 the ministry estimates.
Oh well, carry on. I hear we have some things to do in Yemen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is "UN says..." different from "UN repeats the claims of violent Islamic terrorists."?
Tom

If the claims are true, then it is no different. Duh.

Otherwise, it is different when the UN is repeating what its on the ground observers who are not violent Islamic terrorists are reporting.

And the UN has independent observers? You can ask that with a straight face??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is "UN says..." different from "UN repeats the claims of violent Islamic terrorists."?
Tom

How is ^ this ^ different from "La la la la, I can't hear you"?

The point is that it was a supposedly credible source that actually just repeats the propaganda.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And I've already presented the fact that 4,000 of those "confirmed" deaths are either bogus (there is a check digit in their ID numbers) or are of people who died previously. And now they have gone and silently deleted a bunch of the "dead." Yet they didn't change the total.

Intrigue and mystique! I can't wait for the Big Reveal, when they show who did what and how they did it, and the real number of dead Gazan civilianss is revealed to be three dozen including two women and a toddler... or it could be that the ol' Ministry is multiplying everything by ten, and only SEVENTEEN HUNDRED Gazan children have been killed rather than the 17,000 the ministry estimates.
Oh well, carry on. I hear we have some things to do in Yemen.

Civilians die in war. Looks like about 1:1 vs combatants once you apply the obvious corrections to the Hamas data. Much, much better than the 10:1 that would be expected.

 

[Elixir]

Civilians die in war. Looks like about 1:1 vs combatants once you apply the obvious corrections to the Hamas data. Much, much better than the 10:1 that would be expected.

Less “obvious” to me than the accuracy of the Ministry’s estimate. I seriously doubt that their estimate is off by twofold, let alone tenfold. Your expectations are belied by witnesses.

 

[Arctish]

Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.

Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom

It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic. But the displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank to make way for even more settlers should end immediately. Obviously it's fueling the conflict and needs to stop.

Will you be first in like for going to Auschwitz? If you think the Jews should go why not you?

You appear to be saying that if displaced Palestinians return slowly and in stages, and no more Palestinians are displaced to make way for settlers, it's the same thing as Jews being sent to Auschwitz. That argument is so ridiculous I'm kinda surprised I have to address it even after more than 20 years of reading similar claims you've made.

Yes, it is. The government would fall in the next election, Hamas would be elected and carry out their genocide.

So, if the Palestinian refugees returned in a slow trickle of individuals, in controlled stages no less, the government of Israel would immediately fall and genocide against Jews would get underway.

How many self-hating Jews do you suppose there are in Israel? They must be almost exactly as numerous as Jews who want to survive. So, 3.5 million or more?

I would call your post delusional if I didn't know that your schtick is bullshit. But in the interests of giving you a chance to back up your assertion, tell us why you think a few thousand refugees returning to their former communities means genocide against an overwhelming majority that has control of the government, armed forces, and economy.

Jews don't die when justice prevails. In fact, the opposite happens. Peaceful co-existence might be detrimental to a certain faction's plans to dominate a religious ethno-state but it is beneficial to the people who experience it. As someone who lives in a place where peaceful co-existence is the norm, not the exception, you might have noticed that.

You have some very naive views of what would happen. Peaceful coexistence has never happened, the only question is just how much violence was directed at the Jews.

Bullshit.

It happened for 400 years right there in Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th.

And now that they rebelled and threw off their oppressors they don't dare go back. Think of domestic violence, it's a perfect model for what's happening.

Who is "they"?

The European Jews who immigrated to Palestine and fought to create a Jewish State were escaping other Europeans.

And anyway, your posting history indicates you don't give a fuck when it's Jews moving into settlements in the West Bank where they will be vastly outnumbered by non-Jews, so why the pearl clutching when it's a few thousand non-Jewish refugees returning to their former homes in Israel? Could it be that your argument is nothing but racist fearmongering in defense of preserving the results of ethnic cleansing? It certainly looks that way.

It's not a few thousand, it would be several million.

Says who?

Link to your source that says the Return of the refugees would mean several million immediately moving in who would be immediately eligible to vote and would overthrow the government and march Jews off to death camps. They sound both hysterical and extremely ill-informed. That or else they're truly, deeply anti-Psemitic racists spouting off about how much they detest the idea of Palestinians living in the religious ethno-state of their dreams.

 

[Arctish]

No people just give a damn about human rights, apparently you don't.

Do you mean those of us who support multiethnic democracy?
Or violent Muslim terrorists?

Because it's pretty obvious to me which side you fall on. Rather like a bunch of other people on this forum.
Tom

The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum support multiethnic democracy.

It's just that some here think they can have one in Israel while carefully controlling the mix of religious communities and ethnicities so that Jews will always occupy the most favorable social position, while others realize that as long as non-Jewish Palestinians are discriminated against, it isn't really the multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity it's claimed to be.

You can't build a just and fair society on a foundation of bias and bigotry. Israel can either be the Jewish State that exists for the benefit of Jews alone, or it can be a multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity to all. Or it can be a partner in peace with a Palestinian State (or more than one), as a way to have its cake and eat it, too.

And you can sooth your conscience and say you didn't intend genocide. Your "morality" is based on actions, not outcomes. We are looking at outcomes and consider your disregard for them to be evil.

What action are you looking at? And what outcome? Be specific.

If it's something historical, cite the historians or link to articles. If it's a current event, link to your news sources.

You want to be fair to the Palestinians. You're completely unwilling to consider that the outcome would be genocide. That's not your action. Thus you're moral.

What actions are you looking at? And what outcomes?

Be specific.

Your argument here is that being fair to Palestinians will result in genocide. I say your argument is bullshit racist fear mongering. I cited the history of Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th, with links, earlier in this thread in support of my claims that Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Muslims, and Palestinians of other faiths, can live in peace in a just and fair society. If you are claiming that they can't, explain yourself.


***ETA because I don't trust everyone here to be an honest partner in a discussion: I am not claiming that the Ottoman Empire was perfect, or that it didn't levy an extra tax on non-Muslims, or that the LGBTQ+ community was as well supported as the straight male community, or any other straw man arguments people can concoct. I am citing the history of peaceful co-existence in Palestine among various religious communities and directly refuting the racist anti-Psemitic claim that it is not possible for Palestinian Christians and Muslims to live in peace with Jews.

 

[Arctish]

Here's a major new development. Gazans have started protesting against Hamas. Still small protests. But perhaps finally the Palestinian support for Hamas is waning. Let's hope

Hundreds join largest anti-Hamas protest since Gaza war began

Masked Hamas militants dispersed protesters who gathered in northern Gaza to rally against the group.

www.bbc.com

Let’s hope this continues. I also assume and hope that the corrupt Netanyahu government has stopped supporting Hamas! (Tonge in cheek there). The war is going to go on until the hostages are released and Hamas is de-armed and dis-banded.

So, it is never going to end.

Why are you so pessimistic about the possibility of Palestinians choosing peace and prosperity over chaos and poverty?
Tom

The Palestinians have chosen peace and prosperity over chaos and poverty on multiple occasions, at first with their own counter-proposals over the future of Palestine when the British were withdrawing, then most obviously when the Oslo Accords were signed, and again when the PA formally and officially sought a diplomatic solution to the conflict via the UN and the international community. Their choosing the path that leads to peace isn't enough to secure a peaceful outcome, though. The Israelis have to choose to walk that path as well. Right now, the Israelis are on the path of territorial expansion through displacing the non-Jews and enshrining religious bigotry in their Basic Laws. We all know where that path leads.

Maybe you could read up on those greenhouses in Gaza, how they came to be built, how they came to be under Palestinian control, the hopes people had when they invested in growing crops for export, the jobs and economic growth they provided, and how/why it all came to naught. And then maybe you might wonder why the story that gets circulated is anti-Psemitic horseshit about Palestinians destroying their chances at prosperity because they're just so gosh darned angry all the time.

Nope. They never chose peace. They chose sham agreements that they then promptly broke.

Which agreements are you claiming were shams? Be specific.

And why they came to naught was that Hamas doesn't like prosperity.

Interesting.

Please share your links which have given you the idea Hamas' doesn't like prosperity.

I suspect it's a racist screed that dehumanizes Palestinians, but I could be wrong. It might be a carefully researched, perceptive, and insightful analysis of the inner workings of a terrorist organization with a strange aversion to something most terrorists want very much.

Hamas shells the checkpoint so Israel pulls it's people under cover and thus closes the checkpoint. There goes the produce. Hamas knew what would happen when they shelled the checkpoint.

When did Hamas shell the checkpoint? Was it a one-time event or did it happen more than once? Did it ever happen when Jewish settlers were the ones exporting produce?

Be specific.

If you want to discuss events you have to provide links to reports about them. You have to do your own research and know at least a little bit about the topic. That's how discussions here work.

So, link to your source and let's sort out the facts from the fiction. As I recall, you fell for that racist story about Palestinians destroying the greenhouses like petulant children. Have you looked into it any further than that?