"Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" and being in the wrong body

[excreationist]

My point is Chris seemed persuasive when he debated University students. I’ve now listened to most of the 54 minute professor Dave video. I guess this is an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Maybe I’ll change my mind about breast removal on 13 year olds eventually.

You first need to consider if you agree with the idea that removing a breast of a 13 year old would be justified if the medical evidence demonstrates convincingly that the benefits outweigh the costs, such as in cases of treatment for breast cancer.

I thought often breast cancer only affects one breast. I was talking about breast removal due to being in the “wrong body”. If you remove one breast you can still produce milk.

 

[Axulus]

My point is Chris seemed persuasive when he debated University students. I’ve now listened to most of the 54 minute professor Dave video. I guess this is an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Maybe I’ll change my mind about breast removal on 13 year olds eventually.

You first need to consider if you agree with the idea that removing a breast of a 13 year old would be justified if the medical evidence demonstrates convincingly that the benefits outweigh the costs, such as in cases of treatment for breast cancer.

I thought often breast cancer only affects one breast. I was talking about breast removal due to being in the “wrong body”. If you remove one breast you can still produce milk.

If you agree with that, then it only becomes a matter of how good the evidence is to justify it as a possible treatment option for the subset of cases of gender dysphoria a doctor would recommend it.

This isn't my area of expertise but I generally defer to the judgment of medical professionals in the field on matters like this unless there is a good reason to think otherwise. And if the issue is politicized then any debate on the evidence can become similar to an evolution vs creationism debate. Never let yourself be fooled by someone that has a political agenda like that.

It can be single or double depending on the specific location of the cancer and the extent of its spread. Regardless, the principle should be the only thing that matters: medical evidence on whether the benefits of proposed treatment are expected to exceed the risks of treatment, and comparing that to the downsides and risks of not getting the treatment.

That is the only thing relevant here. The rest is just political noise. If you can agree with that, that's good enough for me as I have no particular interest in debating the evidence itself. I've deferred that judgment and debate to the respected scientists and medical professionals in the field whose career it is to study and/or recommend treatment.

 

[Patooka]

The fact that Elston solely debates students and explicitly refuses to debate experts in this area of medicine is telling in itself. It's Peterson/Crowder territory.

Fuck this cowardly cunt.

 

[Politesse]

Also chemotherapy can affect their health.

This is the part of the whole puberty blocker situation that you seem to be missing.

 

[Jarhyn]

You say you are an excreationist. Presumably you accept the theory of evolution but did not for a period of time. Why?

Like the theory of evolution, you have to first start with understanding the scientific and biological facts on the topic. In this case the scientific facts regarding biology, sex and gender identity. Your introductory post gives me suspicion you are ignorant of these facts since you did not bother to bring them up and also misrepresent some of them. Please watch this video to gain that basic level of scientific understanding if you wish to have a productive conversation. It is a starting point we need to agree upon before we can go beyond that. It also provides a framework to avoid the meaningless semantic word games that idealogues in this space employ. If you disagree with any facts in this video, please point it out with proper citation.

This is a fantastic post.

I watched the biology part and it's pretty damn good. To wit, I think the differentiation of sex and gender into discrete linguistic buckets is pretty damn arbitrary, too... The guy touches on that, but I feel it needs to be pointed in that exact direction as well.

To add, here, I think the brain differentiation is far from dichotomous, and that there are probably a few different and distinct genomic and phenotypical expressions, not merely male and female.

Of online communities, of people who feel an absence of community in their normal social range, and reach out on the internet to find those like them, there is an extreme over-representation of such atypical people; those who are typical find it in typical communities and I think there's also a bit of a "wizard effect" going where the least typical to a society end up presenting new trends in their own right.

That said, there's a whole apparatus of psychological establishment to filter out trend-chasers with respect to gender.

I gave my own niece and nephew this advice: just be you. You don't need to take a drug unless you dislike the noise in your head. Don't just dislike it because you think you need to; look at it and make your own decision.

The fact is, there are brief moments where I like my hormones, but they don't make up for all the "everything else", but I just don't like mine.

What I don't tell them, because it might color their ideas, is that for me, It's an abusive relationship and that one little spark isn't worth the next slap, kick, or punch in its own way.

Anyone should be able to leave that relationship or wait till later when they are older and more emotionally mature and ready to decide again.

If I could have, I would have started on blockers and stayed on blockers.

The fact is, we have for time immemorial watched kids get hormones thrust upon them entirely against anyone's will. That has incontrovertibly happened. We know what the hormones do, and we inferred their general existence some time ago, particularly with those born with testicles, but also "those born eunuchs", as has been noted even as of about 2000 years ago, likely far earlier; we inferred an effect of the tissue on body and mind arrested by its absence, and caused by its present.

What is certain is that the gonads are NOT vital tissue for the purposes of personal enjoyment, however; recently a born eunuch trans-man with a penis whose body did not produce its own testosterone did a whole Reddit AMA where this was discussed. Later in life, they decided to go through puberty as a trans man. He could orgasm previously, but did not ejaculate until later. It was fantastic case study.

So, people know what happens.

I maintain that for the vanishing minority who wish it, having a choice of when and whether to accept that isn't any worse than what has been happening, a forcing of the issue by the tissue that isn't the the mind of the whole nervous system.

The brain gets to make the decisions. That's how this works. Some tissue decides it doesn't want to die? Brain says that's gotta go. Some sub-node starts spewing vile shit on something between a full roar and a moderate scream in response to some chemical NOPE! Gonna block that shit. No, I don't care, I was one of those basal ganglion clusters whose patterns formed such that I do the thing and turn off the tap there. I have other concerns and make my own decisions.

A tiny, vanishing percent want to do this thing anyway, and we DO allow this same thing to happen to MANY other children, or at least some, no matter what is it that they want for themselves. They can see the results. They have eyes, and sharp minds enough to learn and figure things out.

Honestly, I think it infantilizes what humans could be if treated like they were capable and could be expected to be while also having times where they are not. I have seen live video of a toddler frying an egg with a real range top. I doubt everyone is that capable of learning, but the few that are, that look at all that, that figure it out, that have the self-awareness to understand what is happening, and who have the understanding to identify for those around them the path that fits them.

Of course, some paths we deny to all children. We deny to all children the path of intimate relationships with adults, because some social aspects require many years of learning and peer relationships to understand, and social leverage grows with age. It's not that a magic light flips on; they just have to learn relationships by having them with people just as new to it as they are.

Of course I only bring that up because somewhere around 2-3 replies down the line, someone is going to be like "well, we don't let kids have sex, why should we let them decide this", even though we DO let them have puberty and the person about to say that in bad faith EXPECTS them to do so, possibly even if they were born without gonads.

The fact is, when people have the power to see a branching path available to them and are robbed of the power to decide their branch and live with their future, and especially this specific choice, people fucking hate it. They hate it SO much that sometimes they become incensed at the idea anyone would want it. They hate it so much that only a few percent ever actually disagree with it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/s/DfmUyiukni

How Common is Detransition? A Review of all the Evidence

ABSTRACT: To better constrain estimates of the prevalence of detransition and gender-affirming surgical regret, a wide range of studies…

medium.com

Of course kids can consent to it if you are going to force their development to the extent of tying them down so they can't remove their gonads (or putting any other "softer" but just-as-real chain on them).

The reality is that regret is just a false narrative pushed by an old debunked study that used a definitional trick to over-populate desistance: anyone who expressed any possibility of being trans was included, even those who washed out of counseling.

Regret rates for hormone treatments, especially following blockers, are among the lowest regret rates for any medical treatment at all.

3% of trans people have regrets, 4% for minors.

There are roughly 300000 trans youth in America, and 4% is about 12000.

Of that 12000, most desist from blockers and suffer no ill effects, and go on to slightly delayed puberty.

The question is, would 2000 people represent a big enough party to deny the overwhelming happiness of the remaining 298000? Especially since it was their own decision...

 

[excreationist]

Anything you disagree with so far? I can't answer your question as I don't know what you mean when you say "wrong body." Bodies are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are.

Apparently being in the wrong body is the justification for transitioning children, sometimes against their parents will. i.e. it involves making their body match their “gender identity”.

Example's please.

Maybe Elon Musk and his son/daughter? Anyway I just repeated what people were asserting but can't easily find actual examples.

 

[Axulus]

Anything you disagree with so far? I can't answer your question as I don't know what you mean when you say "wrong body." Bodies are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are.

Apparently being in the wrong body is the justification for transitioning children, sometimes against their parents will. i.e. it involves making their body match their “gender identity”.

Example's please.

Maybe Elon Musk and his son/daughter? Anyway I just repeated what people were asserting but can't easily find actual examples.

Elon Musk and his ex-wife gave consent for their daughter to have the medical treatment she wanted and the doctor approved and HE is the one who now regrets doing that, not his daughter.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

My point is Chris seemed persuasive when he debated University students. I’ve now listened to most of the 54 minute professor Dave video. I guess this is an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Maybe I’ll change my mind about breast removal on 13 year olds eventually.

To be open--

• If you have a 13-year-old daughter and you, your partner, the daughter, and some doctors say they don't think she should get a medical procedure, then it's none of my business.
• On the other hand, if you have a 13-year-old daughter and you, your partner, the daughter, and some doctors say they DO think she should get a medical procedure, it's still none of my fucking business.

Now on the third hand, if Joe Schmoe on the Interwebs makes a bunch of videos to make him look smart and deletes the ones where he looks like an idiot and he claims that parents are not allowed to make decisions in the two scenarios above, I don't trust Joe Schmoe. Joe Schmoe needs to prove this actually happened.

If you are making the claim that I ought to trust Joe Schmoe from the Interwebs, then you need to provide this evidence on his behalf because he's not here.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Anything you disagree with so far? I can't answer your question as I don't know what you mean when you say "wrong body." Bodies are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are.

Apparently being in the wrong body is the justification for transitioning children, sometimes against their parents will. i.e. it involves making their body match their “gender identity”.

Example's please.

Maybe Elon Musk and his son/daughter? Anyway I just repeated what people were asserting but can't easily find actual examples.

Disinformation Claiming That Musk’s Child Underwent Gender-Affirming Surgery Without Parental Consent

On September 11, during the "Summary of the Day" program on the pro-Kremlin Sezoni TV, the host, Nikoloz Mzhavanadze, claimed

mythdetector.com

 

[excreationist]

If you are making the claim that I ought to trust Joe Schmoe from the Interwebs, then you need to provide this evidence on his behalf because he's not here.

I just said he sounds persuasive. I did link to some of the stuff he mentioned like related studies

Studies

SEGM has been compiling a compendium of literature to highlight our position of concern over the proliferation of hormonal and surgical "gender-affirmative" interventions for gender dysphoric youth. This is NOT an all-inclusive list of all the studies in the field of pediatric gender medicine...

segm.org

(he claims he is familiar with basically all of the research)
So that's some evidence. This sounds like a case of the Dunning–Kruger effect so initially I thought I thoroughly understood the key parts of the topic.

 

[Axulus]

You say you are an excreationist. Presumably you accept the theory of evolution but did not for a period of time. Why?

Like the theory of evolution, you have to first start with understanding the scientific and biological facts on the topic. In this case the scientific facts regarding biology, sex and gender identity. Your introductory post gives me suspicion you are ignorant of these facts since you did not bother to bring them up and also misrepresent some of them. Please watch this video to gain that basic level of scientific understanding if you wish to have a productive conversation. It is a starting point we need to agree upon before we can go beyond that. It also provides a framework to avoid the meaningless semantic word games that idealogues in this space employ. If you disagree with any facts in this video, please point it out with proper citation.

This is a fantastic post.

I watched the biology part and it's pretty damn good. To wit, I think the differentiation of sex and gender into discrete linguistic buckets is pretty damn arbitrary, too... The guy touches on that, but I feel it needs to be pointed in that exact direction as well.

To add, here, I think the brain differentiation is far from dichotomous, and that there are probably a few different and distinct genomic and phenotypical expressions, not merely male and female.

Of online communities, of people who feel an absence of community in their normal social range, and reach out on the internet to find those like them, there is an extreme over-representation of such atypical people; those who are typical find it in typical communities and I think there's also a bit of a "wizard effect" going where the least typical to a society end up presenting new trends in their own right.

That said, there's a whole apparatus of psychological establishment to filter out trend-chasers with respect to gender.

I gave my own niece and nephew this advice: just be you. You don't need to take a drug unless you dislike the noise in your head. Don't just dislike it because you think you need to; look at it and make your own decision.

The fact is, there are brief moments where I like my hormones, but they don't make up for all the "everything else", but I just don't like mine.

What I don't tell them, because it might color their ideas, is that for me, It's an abusive relationship and that one little spark isn't worth the next slap, kick, or punch in its own way.

Anyone should be able to leave that relationship or wait till later when they are older and more emotionally mature and ready to decide again.

If I could have, I would have started on blockers and stayed on blockers.

The fact is, we have for time immemorial watched kids get hormones thrust upon them entirely against anyone's will. That has incontrovertibly happened. We know what the hormones do, and we inferred their general existence some time ago, particularly with those born with testicles, but also "those born eunuchs", as has been noted even as of about 2000 years ago, likely far earlier; we inferred an effect of the tissue on body and mind arrested by its absence, and caused by its present.

What is certain is that the gonads are NOT vital tissue for the purposes of personal enjoyment, however; recently a born eunuch trans-man with a penis whose body did not produce its own testosterone did a whole Reddit AMA where this was discussed. Later in life, they decided to go through puberty as a trans man. He could orgasm previously, but did not ejaculate until later. It was fantastic case study.

So, people know what happens.

I maintain that for the vanishing minority who wish it, having a choice of when and whether to accept that isn't any worse than what has been happening, a forcing of the issue by the tissue that isn't the the mind of the whole nervous system.

The brain gets to make the decisions. That's how this works. Some tissue decides it doesn't want to die? Brain says that's gotta go. Some sub-node starts spewing vile shit on something between a full roar and a moderate scream in response to some chemical NOPE! Gonna block that shit. No, I don't care, I was one of those basal ganglion clusters whose patterns formed such that I do the thing and turn off the tap there. I have other concerns and make my own decisions.

A tiny, vanishing percent want to do this thing anyway, and we DO allow this same thing to happen to MANY other children, or at least some, no matter what is it that they want for themselves. They can see the results. They have eyes, and sharp minds enough to learn and figure things out.

Honestly, I think it infantilizes what humans could be if treated like they were capable and could be expected to be while also having times where they are not. I have seen live video of a toddler frying an egg with a real range top. I doubt everyone is that capable of learning, but the few that are, that look at all that, that figure it out, that have the self-awareness to understand what is happening, and who have the understanding to identify for those around them the path that fits them.

Of course, some paths we deny to all children. We deny to all children the path of intimate relationships with adults, because some social aspects require many years of learning and peer relationships to understand, and social leverage grows with age. It's not that a magic light flips on; they just have to learn relationships by having them with people just as new to it as they are.

Of course I only bring that up because somewhere around 2-3 replies down the line, someone is going to be like "well, we don't let kids have sex, why should we let them decide this", even though we DO let them have puberty and the person about to say that in bad faith EXPECTS them to do so, possibly even if they were born without gonads.

The fact is, when people have the power to see a branching path available to them and are robbed of the power to decide their branch and live with their future, and especially this specific choice, people fucking hate it. They hate it SO much that sometimes they become incensed at the idea anyone would want it. They hate it so much that only a few percent ever actually disagree with it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/s/DfmUyiukni

How Common is Detransition? A Review of all the Evidence

ABSTRACT: To better constrain estimates of the prevalence of detransition and gender-affirming surgical regret, a wide range of studies…

medium.com

Of course kids can consent to it if you are going to force their development to the extent of tying them down so they can't remove their gonads (or putting any other "softer" but just-as-real chain on them).

The reality is that regret is just a false narrative pushed by an old debunked study that used a definitional trick to over-populate desistance: anyone who expressed any possibility of being trans was included, even those who washed out of counseling.

Regret rates for hormone treatments, especially following blockers, are among the lowest regret rates for any medical treatment at all.

3% of trans people have regrets, 4% for minors.

There are roughly 300000 trans youth in America, and 4% is about 12000.

Of that 12000, most desist from blockers and suffer no ill effects, and go on to slightly delayed puberty.

The question is, would 2000 people represent a big enough party to deny the overwhelming happiness of the remaining 298000? Especially since it was their own decision...

Good post, always interesting to hear your perspective on this. And Professor Dave is great, he debunks a lot of nonsense out there in a clear and entertaining way.

 

[excreationist]

More stuff from Chris:

About Puberty Blockers — Billboard Chris

www.billboardchris.com

Puberty blockers are drugs which — like the name says — completely block puberty from occurring.

They are prescribed to healthy children as young as 10 years old who present with a condition known as gender dysphoria, a feeling that they want to be the other gender.

The drug usually prescribed is called Lupron — a drug that was given FDA approval to treat prostate cancer in men, and endometriosis in women.

There have been no long-term clinical studies done on children. Puberty blockers are being used ‘off label’ to block kids’ healthy, natural development, with grave physical consequences. The few small studies we do have show that they don’t even provide any psychological benefit.

What we do know is that if children are free to go through puberty, at least 4 out of 5 kids will see their gender dysphoria just go away.

I believe him when he says he is familiar with the literature and he mentioned the SEGM website which includes some of it.

 

[excreationist]

What about this?

In Schools — Billboard Chris

www.billboardchris.com

Do you want your Kindergartener role-playing being non-binary, or the other gender?
In this lesson plan, children are given a card with a name on it, and asked to walk around the class, practicing their pronouns.

Contrary to what gender ideologues believe, sex is binary. That’s just how it is. If a child wants to defy gender stereotypes, GO FOR IT! They are, after all, just stereotypes. Dress however you please. Be a boy with a barbie. Play hockey or football as a girl. How utterly absurd and harmful is it to teach children that stereotypes determine their gender.

I guess the bit about being binary is incorrect but what do you think about teaching kindergarteners about this kind of thing? I suspect that that would increase the number of children with serious gender dysphoria.

 

[Axulus]

More stuff from Chris:

About Puberty Blockers — Billboard Chris

www.billboardchris.com

Puberty blockers are drugs which — like the name says — completely block puberty from occurring.

They are prescribed to healthy children as young as 10 years old who present with a condition known as gender dysphoria, a feeling that they want to be the other gender.

The drug usually prescribed is called Lupron — a drug that was given FDA approval to treat prostate cancer in men, and endometriosis in women.

There have been no long-term clinical studies done on children. Puberty blockers are being used ‘off label’ to block kids’ healthy, natural development, with grave physical consequences. The few small studies we do have show that they don’t even provide any psychological benefit.

What we do know is that if children are free to go through puberty, at least 4 out of 5 kids will see their gender dysphoria just go away.

I believe him when he says he is familiar with the literature and he mentioned the SEGM website which includes some of it.

And Ken Ham claims to be familiar with the scientific literature on evolution. He has a whole website called answers in genesis that analyzes a ton of it. Do you think he actually is? And if he is, does he have an accurate understanding of it and does he discuss it honestly? How can we tell?

 

[excreationist]

I believe him when he says he is familiar with the literature and he mentioned the SEGM website which includes some of it.

And Ken Ham claims to be familiar with the scientific literature on evolution. He has a whole website called answers in genesis that analyzes a ton of it. Do you think he actually is? How can we tell?

Studies

SEGM has been compiling a compendium of literature to highlight our position of concern over the proliferation of hormonal and surgical "gender-affirmative" interventions for gender dysphoric youth. This is NOT an all-inclusive list of all the studies in the field of pediatric gender medicine...

segm.org

says "we aim to highlight unsettled debates in the field" (their bolding) "literature to highlight our position of concern over the proliferation of hormonal and surgical "gender-affirmative" interventions". They appear to be more open minded that Ken Ham. Ken Ham clearly says that the source of truth is the Bible rather than just what science seems to find.
The literature on Chris's field would be more narrow than evolution I think. There might be thousands of papers or more but that would be read by Chris.

 

[excreationist]

The fact that Elston solely debates students and explicitly refuses to debate experts in this area of medicine is telling in itself. It's Peterson/Crowder territory.

Fuck this cowardly cunt.

In a way I think it is like missionaries like JWs and Mormons who can convert regular people - the people Chris converts would mainly be viewers.

 

[laughing dog]

Maybe Elon Musk and his son/daughter? Anyway I just repeated what people were asserting but can't easily find actual examples.

Ah, the “some people on the internet” method of epistemology.

 

[excreationist]

Anything you disagree with so far? I can't answer your question as I don't know what you mean when you say "wrong body." Bodies are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are.

Apparently being in the wrong body is the justification for transitioning children, sometimes against their parents will. i.e. it involves making their body match their “gender identity”.

Jebus! You know, if you are going to talk about it, might be best to read up on it first.

Like Chris says, fuck Chris! Chris isn't a doctor, social worker, psychiatrist. He is a fucking political troll.

I think he has had conversations with large numbers of transition fans - maybe hundreds or more. (maybe he claimed thousands?)

 

[Axulus]

I believe him when he says he is familiar with the literature and he mentioned the SEGM website which includes some of it.

And Ken Ham claims to be familiar with the scientific literature on evolution. He has a whole website called answers in genesis that analyzes a ton of it. Do you think he actually is? How can we tell?

Studies

SEGM has been compiling a compendium of literature to highlight our position of concern over the proliferation of hormonal and surgical "gender-affirmative" interventions for gender dysphoric youth. This is NOT an all-inclusive list of all the studies in the field of pediatric gender medicine...

segm.org

says "we aim to highlight unsettled debates in the field" (their bolding) "literature to highlight our position of concern over the proliferation of hormonal and surgical "gender-affirmative" interventions". They appear to be more open minded that Ken Ham. Ken Ham clearly says that the source of truth is the Bible rather than just what science seems to find.
The literature on Chris's field would be more narrow than evolution I think. There might be thousands of papers or more but that would be read by Chris.

He says he highlights unsettled debates and yet he clearly falls strongly on one side of the debate and cherry picks evidence to support that. That is a contradiction. If he was as open minded as you say he is then his conclusion should at least be "I'm not sure, we need better evidence to decide one way or another, here is the evidence for, and here is the evidence against", given that the debate is unsettled, in his own words.

That is no different to claiming that Ken Ham highlights "unsettled debates" in evolution and then picks only one side every single time.

People with political agendas are usually _not_ very credible, and least of all when they don't even publish research in the field as their career. People with political agendas often have deep seeded biases and highly motivated reasoning. Most of all when they have a youtube channel whose main purpose is to maximize views regardless of truth. You should know that being an ex-creationist and the deceptive tactics creationist apologists engage in.

If you are open minded and these debates are really unsettled, why haven't you bothered to listen to the respected people in this field and see what their perspective is? Find the people in particular whose job it is to advance the field of research. If you are interested in the effectiveness of puberty blockers as a treatment for gender dysphoria, who are the top 5 people in this particular field of research, and what do they have to say? Can you name even a single one? Can you name the most cited paper in the field and are you familiar with its conclusions? If not, then you have not been open minded and done proper research on the issue. Are all 5 in agreement? Is it 4-1, or split 3-2 regarding the most important conclusions?

 

[Jarhyn]

Anything you disagree with so far? I can't answer your question as I don't know what you mean when you say "wrong body." Bodies are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are.

Apparently being in the wrong body is the justification for transitioning children, sometimes against their parents will. i.e. it involves making their body match their “gender identity”.

Jebus! You know, if you are going to talk about it, might be best to read up on it first.

Like Chris says, fuck Chris! Chris isn't a doctor, social worker, psychiatrist. He is a fucking political troll.

I think he has had conversations with large numbers of transition fans - maybe hundreds or more. (maybe he claimed thousands?)

And he's full of shit, a younger version of Dawkins pushing the same tired highschool biology level understanding of sex.

We know that one of the major side effects of denying trans care, blockers, is: aversion to the forced scenario unto suicide.

This guy is a fucking toolbag, a Sargon of Akkad, a slick shitheel who peddles the same shit as Cas trying to throw illegitimate gripes against real research (like the double-blind shit) whole ignoring the bias and the social backing/direction of his movement (camps, and not the fun kind where you get to ride horses).

It is literally a life long whole-body rape, a disfigurement, that is being forced on the person that sees the means to an alternative and is forcibly denied it. With force.