Minimum Rage: The remix

[AthenaAwakened]

thanks to ksen for the title

Here's the link

http://thegoodfight.fm/episodes/20-minimum-wage-myths-busted

Opponents of raising the minimum wage like to claim that economists are on their side. They're wrong. In this episode: the truth about minimum wage economics, the fight in the field, and the reason the jobs debate is a sideshow.

from Card and Krueger to present, the findings about raising the MW are throwing the right wing into a tizzy. What if it isn't just supply and demand? What if workers aren't a commodity? What if economics in the real world doesn't give a toss about graphs in your intro to econ notebooks?

 

[ksen]

h/t :wave:

 

[ksen]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101634240

But CNBC's first-ever Millionaire Survey reveals that 51 percent of American millionaires believe inequality is a "major problem" for the U.S., and nearly two-thirds support higher taxes on the wealthy and a higher minimum wage as ways to narrow the wealth gap.

Ahhh, what do they know?

 

[maxparrish]

thanks to ksen for the title

Here's the link

http://thegoodfight.fm/episodes/20-minimum-wage-myths-busted

Opponents of raising the minimum wage like to claim that economists are on their side. They're wrong. In this episode: the truth about minimum wage economics, the fight in the field, and the reason the jobs debate is a sideshow.

from Card and Krueger to present, the findings about raising the MW are throwing the right wing into a tizzy. What if it isn't just supply and demand? What if workers aren't a commodity? What if economics in the real world doesn't give a toss about graphs in your intro to econ notebooks?

Great news, Athena has her economic roadmap out and she has discovered a roadside tourist marker flagged as "mystery spot here - see where the laws of economics no longer apply!" WOW...lets all jump in our solar powered Prius and go gawk at the minimum wage gravity hole! See where businesses hire more employees the more they cost! See where profits increase the more labor costs increase! And afterwards, we can buy at the Mystery Hole Economics gift shop, where they sell at a loss and make up for it in volume!

 

[maxparrish]

All humor aside, yawn.

SUMMARY AND POLICY ADVICE
While low wages contribute to the dire economic straits of many poor and low-income
families, the argument that a higher minimum wage is an effective way to improve their
economic circumstances is not supported by the evidence.

First, a higher minimum wage discourages employers from using the very low-wage,
low-skill workers that minimum wages are intended to help. A large body of evidence
confirms that minimum wages reduce employment among low-wage, low-skill workers.
Second, minimum wages do a bad job of targeting poor and low-income families.
Minimum wage laws mandate high wages for low-wage workers rather than higher
earnings for low-income families. Low-income families need help to overcome poverty.
Research for the US generally fails to find evidence that minimum wages help the poor,
although some subgroups may be helped when minimum wages are combined with a
subsidy program, like a targeted tax credit.

The minimum wage is ineffective at achieving the goal of helping poor and low-income
families. More effective are policies that increase the incentives for members of poor
and low-income families to work.

http://wol.iza.org/articles/employment-effects-of-minimum-wages-1.pdf

 

[AthenaAwakened]

All humor aside, yawn.

SUMMARY AND POLICY ADVICE
While low wages contribute to the dire economic straits of many poor and low-income
families, the argument that a higher minimum wage is an effective way to improve their
economic circumstances is not supported by the evidence.

First, a higher minimum wage discourages employers from using the very low-wage,
low-skill workers that minimum wages are intended to help. A large body of evidence
confirms that minimum wages reduce employment among low-wage, low-skill workers.
Second, minimum wages do a bad job of targeting poor and low-income families.
Minimum wage laws mandate high wages for low-wage workers rather than higher
earnings for low-income families. Low-income families need help to overcome poverty.
Research for the US generally fails to find evidence that minimum wages help the poor,
although some subgroups may be helped when minimum wages are combined with a
subsidy program, like a targeted tax credit.

The minimum wage is ineffective at achieving the goal of helping poor and low-income
families. More effective are policies that increase the incentives for members of poor
and low-income families to work.

http://wol.iza.org/articles/employment-effects-of-minimum-wages-1.pdf

the show addresses this. In the show notes, there are links to policy papers that address this and debunk it. Care to listen again and/or read the reports?

Nah, didn't think you would.

 

[Underseer]

Since the protofascists are against raising the minimum wage, this means they are OK with the current arrangement in which billions of taxpayer dollars are spent providing government services keeping all of these underpaid workers and their families alive.

So my question to the protofascists is: why do you think it's OK to steal my taxes and waste it supplementing the incomes of employees in order to pad the bottom line of corporations that in many cases are already highly profitable? Taxes are stealing, so by opposing raising the minimum wage, you want to steal more of my taxes towards boosting the profits of large corporations that don't really need my help. Why do you hate the taxpayer, and why do you love big government so much? Why are you a bunch of statists?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

All humor aside, yawn.

SUMMARY AND POLICY ADVICE
While low wages contribute to the dire economic straits of many poor and low-income
families, the argument that a higher minimum wage is an effective way to improve their
economic circumstances is not supported by the evidence.

First, a higher minimum wage discourages employers from using the very low-wage,
low-skill workers that minimum wages are intended to help. A large body of evidence
confirms that minimum wages reduce employment among low-wage, low-skill workers.
Second, minimum wages do a bad job of targeting poor and low-income families.
Minimum wage laws mandate high wages for low-wage workers rather than higher
earnings for low-income families. Low-income families need help to overcome poverty.
Research for the US generally fails to find evidence that minimum wages help the poor,
although some subgroups may be helped when minimum wages are combined with a
subsidy program, like a targeted tax credit.

The minimum wage is ineffective at achieving the goal of helping poor and low-income
families. More effective are policies that increase the incentives for members of poor
and low-income families to work.

http://wol.iza.org/articles/employment-effects-of-minimum-wages-1.pdf

btw

IZA.org has a very high opinion of Card and Krueger

And has had for a long time.


https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S16/23/24G06/index.xml

Princeton economist Alan Krueger has been named a winner of the IZA Prize in Labor Economics in recognition of his influential research on education and labor-market issues.

Krueger will share the award with David Card, a University of California-Berkeley economist and frequent collaborator who served on the Princeton faculty from 1983 to 1997.

The prize, which is worth 50,000 euros (approximately $64,000), honors research that addresses important public policy concerns. It is awarded annually by Germany's Institute for the Study of Labor (IZA), with support from the Deutsche Post Foundation. Krueger and Card will receive the prize at a Nov. 8 ceremony in Berlin.

"David Card and Alan Krueger have stimulated labor economics for many years with their original research approach, the practical relevance of their results and their remarkable use of natural experiments to test commonly accepted models," said IZA Director Klaus Zimmermann.

Krueger and Card were cited for their analysis of the impact of education, training and human capital on earnings, such as research demonstrating that the quality of schooling has an enormous influence on future income.

They also have made pathbreaking contributions to the analysis of the minimum wage, showing that moderate increases do not have the destructive impact on employment that many critics fear. They received international attention for their 1994 study comparing fast-food employment in New Jersey and Pennsylvania before and after the New Jersey minimum wage increase.

Krueger's work also has included research on the controversial New York City school voucher experiment, in which he found that giving students vouchers to attend private school did not improve their performance on standardized tests.

 

[ksen]

I wonder why we never see all this energy to keep executive compensation down? I mean doesn't higher executive pay lead to higher unemployment?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I wonder why we never see all this energy to keep executive compensation down? I mean doesn't higher executive pay lead to higher unemployment?

you would think so, now wouldn't you?

I mean, CEOs could price themselves out of the market

 

[Underseer]

I wonder why we never see all this energy to keep executive compensation down? I mean doesn't higher executive pay lead to higher unemployment?

That's because executives count as part of the aristocracy. They would never complain about something that directly benefits members of the aristocracy no matter how hypocritical it makes them look.

 

[Togo]

certainly raising the wages of executives would mean that a company employs fewer of them, right?

 

[maxparrish]

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to . Its 45 minutes long but if you have a link to a transcript and I will read that.

 

[coloradoatheist]

certainly raising the wages of executives would mean that a company employs fewer of them, right?

Depends on what their compensation is on. Most CEO compensation, especially the big packages we hear about, is stock options, which affect stockholders more than employees. And one of the reasons that CEO compensation grew, as an unintended consequence, was the attempt at limiting CEO compensation by limiting the amount of money that CEOs could get paid directly.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to.

so you are talking about something you know nothing about.

Deja vu all over again.

 

[coloradoatheist]

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to.

so you are talking about something you know nothing about.

Deja vu all over again.

Most people do know that there is an issue. Could we raise minimum wage to $1million an hour?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to.

so you are talking about something you know nothing about.

Deja vu all over again.

Most people do know that there is an issue. Could we raise minimum wage to $1million an hour?

and another voice from the wilderness chimes in.

That too is addressed and dismissed in the podcast.

 

[bilby]

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to.

so you are talking about something you know nothing about.

Deja vu all over again.

Most people do know that there is an issue. Could we raise minimum wage to $1million an hour?

and another voice from the wilderness chimes in.

That too is addressed and dismissed in the podcast.

It can't just be dismissed. Either it is OK to raise minimum wage, or it isn't.

Unless you are going to try to argue that there is a difference between, say, $5 and $1,000,000, which is just silly. They are both numbers; increasing the minimum wage by one is the same as increasing it by the other.

coloradoatheist clearly understands that they are exactly the same thing; which is why I plan to swap this nice, crisp $5 bill for $1,000,000 of his savings. I am sure he will be happy to oblige me.

 

[maxparrish]

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to.

so you are talking about something you know nothing about.

Deja vu all over again.

I fell for it. Although I should have known better, I spent the last 45 minutes listening to your EPI rehash of prior EPI propaganda and talking points, all of which (except tipping wage) I (and others) have addressed, dismantled, and land-filled at FRDB. I thought your link was going to be a cerebral interview of the economic literature by EPI economist Allegretto, but rather than getting Firing Line, you gave us the Mr. Rogers twins reassuring the progressive kid fandom that while being on the side of justice and morality is more than enough, for those who are curious they should also know minimum wage makes economic sense, and most economists agree!

Because their points were dumbed down (and debunked) old news, I found the experience to be far more useful as a sociological curiosity than for economic learning - a couple of Lake Woebegone mimics offering how to justify what the listener believed before they knew why they should believe it, backed by light jazzy cut-always, lots of smile (but do not laugh) cutesy banter relief followed by talking points lubricated with spoonful's of ideological sugar, all the while stating the superficial and often trite really slow, and fatherly all-knowing.

I don't know who is more offensive, Glenn Beck with his glasses and chalk board charting out his dry somber pseudo intellectualisms to his fans, or a couple of funny guys who want to look smart and popular while teaching talking point propaganda to the child-like faithful, simplified for the already believing.

Oh wait, I do recall two other experiences I had that compared: sales seminars and missionary training!

PS. Now tell me your read my link to a technical article by an actual minimum wage economist...DeJa Vu all over again?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since the protofascists are against raising the minimum wage, this means they are OK with the current arrangement in which billions of taxpayer dollars are spent providing government services keeping all of these underpaid workers and their families alive.

So my question to the protofascists is: why do you think it's OK to steal my taxes and waste it supplementing the incomes of employees in order to pad the bottom line of corporations that in many cases are already highly profitable? Taxes are stealing, so by opposing raising the minimum wage, you want to steal more of my taxes towards boosting the profits of large corporations that don't really need my help. Why do you hate the taxpayer, and why do you love big government so much? Why are you a bunch of statists?

I don't know who the protofascists are but I can explain my position on it:

Raising the minimum wage raises the wages for some people and leaves others unemployed or working fewer hours. It also makes it harder to enter the labor force in the first place. You claim to be for equality yet you're taking a position that increases inequality.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder why we never see all this energy to keep executive compensation down? I mean doesn't higher executive pay lead to higher unemployment?

you would think so, now wouldn't you?

I mean, CEOs could price themselves out of the market

They negotiate pay.

Thus they will end up taking less rather than being priced out of the market.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL... I have read the show notes - nothing there.

As far as listening to it, no I don't care to . Its 45 minutes long but if you have a link to a transcript and I will read that.

Second this. One can read much faster than one can listen.