Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Prosperity for the Palestinian people? It is obviously that they could not give a wet fart about that.

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

There is nothing in their charter, position papers, or official statements that would lead one to believe they don't like prosperity or would work to thwart it in Gaza. If you think you can support Loren's claims, go right ahead and post the links to credible sources that provide the information his posts are lacking.

Why in the world would you expect anything like that in their position??

Rather, it's the reality of controlling the people. If you have to cooperate with Hamas to survive you cooperate with Hamas and Hamas gets what it wants. Brutal economics, not an endgame objective.

Otherwise, they would not be spending billions on rockets and digging hundreds of miles of their reinforced tunnel network.
Otherwise, they would not be shooting rockets into Israel, nor starting wars like the current one.

If disavowing terrorism and being committed to diplomatic solutions had brought prosperity to Palestinians living in the West Bank under the PA, you might have a point. But since they, too, cannot prosper under current economic and social conditions, and in fact keep losing homes, farmland, orchards, and other resources to Israelis building and expanding settlements (and some just being destructive assholes), and since the lack of prosperity and economic sabotage in Gaza predates the election that brought Hamas to power, the argument that Gazans would prosper if they simply sidelined Hamas and stopped fighting is absurd.

And the West Bank has been anything like peaceful? Because Israel can move around it's only small stuff, not things like 10/7, but it still happens.

Also, those tunnels began as an economic lifeline for Gaza. Citing them as evidence Hamas doesn't care about prosperity is through-the-looking-glass levels of absurdity.

It does not take a genius to realize that these policies are not exactly conducive to a prosperous population.

And again, if Israel had allowed the Palestinians in the West Bank to prosper once the PA renounced terrorism, you might have a point. As it stands, the only likely path to prosperity for Palestinians means ending the Occupation. Hamas is willing to use terrorism to make that happen. That does not mean Hamas is against prosperity. Quite the opposite in fact. The impossibility of prosperity under the current conditions is why so many people join Hamas.

The PA considers the pay for slay to be the most important item in it's budget, not to be cut no matter what. That's not renouncing terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I listened to This American Life while I was driving down here yesterday. The Israelis shooting kids in the head and left side of the chest is pretty monstrous. White orthopedic surgeon that has worked in numerous conflict zones saw head shots and center of mass shots in toddlers to tweens. So have dozens of other medical aid workers. Shots like that aren't accidents. Israelis are acting like they are putting down dogs. That probably makes a few folks around here happy though.

Where is the evidence?

And note that the hospitals in Gaza were part of Hamas. Why should we believe the shots even existed?

And it is quite clear that Hamas was killing Gazans for the cameras. What is your evidence that these were not some such cases?

 

[laughing dog]

If the IDF had buried the bodies (with bullet holes in the head ostensibly from a bombing) for such humanitarian concerns, you’d think the IDF would say so. So far, no such statement has been proffered.

I have not kept up with the timeline on this. I am going on what they have said happened.

Corpses in combat zones have long been a big problem. Is it surprising that they have a procedure for dealing with them??

Once again, you offer excuses instead of evidence.

 

[ZiprHead]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

JFC! They literally buried ambulances along with people bound and shot in the head.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright.

While the Zionist entity is only in the ME, all Zionists are not. Please share any actual evidence that Hamas desires to eliminate Zionists in other parts of the world. Without such evidence, there is no reason to accept your opinion as valid.

They try to hide it, most sources are Arabic and they are pointed out by Jewish sources so you won't like them. But:

Senior Hamas official calls on members of Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews | Christians United for Israel

A senior Hamas official has urged members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews around the world. Fathi Hammad, a member of Hamas’s politburo who is considered a hard-liner and […]

cufi.org

URL says enough. They try to distance from what he says, but note that they haven't removed him. Thus they clearly do not have any substantial disagreement with his words.

Though nice attempt to dodge the issue that Hamas is only interested in Hamas. Hamas does not want the Gazans to be free and govern themselves in Gaza. It cares nothing for the Gazans except as grist to their mill.

I was trying to avoid the repetition of the conflation of inferences with statements of fact. I seriously doubt you have any direct knowledge about Hamas wants or believes. I know I don't. From their policies and actions, I think I understand what drives your kneejerk blather, but you conflate your opinions with fact. And I realize that such rhetoric allows one to justify one's views about Hamas.

We are looking at the observed patterns. Find the hypothesis that fits the facts and requires the minimum of assumptions.

However, Hamas is mostly comprised of Gazans, and since Hamas members clearly takes steps to survive, it is bleeding obvious that Hamas cares about Gazans. They may not value Gazans who are not members of Hamas as much as those who are members of Hamas, but that does not require not caring at all.

It is bleeding obvious that you are wrong. Hamas is controlled by Iran, not Gaza. And note "but that does not require not caring at all"--but neither does it preclude it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren said the reason the greenhouse project came to naught was because Hamas doesn't like prosperity. I am asking him to post his argument, not just a snarky line of empty rhetoric.

The behavior of Hamas et al is the argument.

No, the behavior of Loren Pechtel is the argument.

Loren posts bullshit. He also frequently posts propaganda, lies, and the tenets of his Faith, but bullshit is his stock in trade. I am asking him to support his claims. Your jumping in to support the bullshit doesn't make it not-bullshit, it just means that you are helping spread the bullshit around.

You ask for proof of things already proven.

Here is how this particular instance of bullshiting developed. Harry Bosch, laughing dog, TomC, and I were discussing recent protests against Hamas by Gazans and the prospects for peace. I suggested posters read up on the history of the greenhouse project and how it came to naught, and encouraged people to wonder why the story that gets circulated is anti-Psemitic horseshit, not the facts of the matter. Loren responded with the extraordinary claim that the reason the greenhouse project failed is because Hamas doesn't like prosperity, without providing a single shred of evidence his claims were true and despite previous links to reliable sources documenting the closure of the Karni Crossing and subsequent loss of the greenhouse crops before the election that brought Hamas to power.

You realize Hamas was a substantial block before they pulled their coup? Thus "before" is not a reasonable objection.

Granted, the links were in a post that was in response to one of yours, but Loren has been following this discussion pretty closely, he and I have talked about the greenhouses before, and he knows Hamas ran on a platform of economic development and was actually building infrastructure in Gaza, so I have every reason to believe he knows he's posting bullshit.

Look at The Felon. Clearly "run on" and "actions" do not always line up.

I also have every reason to believe he does it so that people won't look into the history and reach their own conclusions based on the facts they find.

If you want to support Loren's claims that Hamas doesn't like prosperity, you'll have to do better than merely assert it the way you're doing here:

It's completely basic to controlling the population, not specific to Hamas.

The terrorist factions like Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al do not care whether or not Palestinian civilians live or die, much less about their prosperity.
In fact, they see dead Palestinians as a PR cudgel for the useful idiots in the West, especially the pampered college students in places like Columbia.
That's why they shoot rockets from the tent city in Al Mawasi. For example, see this rocket launcher being struck with precision.
View attachment 50354
From here. Forget blatant MEE editorializing, since the strike clearly didn't hit a tent but the rocket launcher, which is visible in the first few frames.
Note that the tent dwellers must have been warned of the strike, as they had ample time to position a couple of cameras perfectly.
Note also the secondary explosion, indicating that there was at least one rocket at the site being struck.

That's also why Hamas leader Mohammed Deif hid out in Al Mawasi surrounded by a large cache of weapons.

Note the large secondary explosion.

Those are not the actions of a group that cares about the lives of the people it ostensibly fights for, much less their prosperity.

If we accept your argument as valid, we must therefore conclude that Zionist settlers who store weapons in their homes in the settlements and instance of the IDF storing weapons in areas where civilian housing exists indicates Zionist and Israelis soldiers don't care about the lives of Jews.

If, OTOH, we accept weapon storage in or near homes as normal when a nation or community is threatened with extreme violence, we can only accept your criticism of Hamas for doing it as valid if we use blatant double standards.

Goalposts! The problem here is the multiple meanings of the word "weapons". There are probably a lot of firearms in Israeli homes. The video clip could not be produced by any sane quantity of cartridges. The smallest aircraft-delivered bomb I'm aware of is 250#, which contains about 100# of explosive similar to or more energetic than TNT. Thus the first boom is at a minimum 100# of TNT. The second boom is clearly a different explosive, but the total energy is in the same ballpark. Stuff like that normally comes with an awful lot of hazardous materials rules. Consider a local case from some years back: blowdown of an old casino. They were only allowed to bring the boom in as close to detonation as practical, when it came into town the police closed off each street before the vehicle was allowed to cross. I have no idea of the details of the storage rules, I know that as someone who lives in the suburbs it's simply not possible to possess rocket motors with nowhere near the boom potential that we are seeing here. I am sure there isn't anything like this in any Israeli homes.

I never said I support Hamas, or that I want Hamas to prevail. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think the biggest obstacle to our discussions is your insistence on categorizing everyone as either pro-Israel or pro-Hamas, and refusal to acknowledge that there are other positions one can take and other political parties one can support.

Being pro-peace and pro-human rights means being at odds with racist religious bigots of every stripe. You never seem to get that no matter how many times it's explained to you.

But you always end up taking the anti-Israel side, in effect siding with Hamas no matter what atrocities they commit.

Israel did not withdraw the soldiers from the walls and barriers that kept the Palestinians imprisoned.

You realize Egypt has a border with Gaza also?

You know the Gazans weren't free to come and go as they pleased, or to export their products or import goods for sale without outside interference, or to develop their natural gas resources, or to generate electricity at their power plant, or to drive or fly wherever they wanted to go. Heck, they weren't allowed to pick crops from their own lands or fish in their Territorial waters without the risk of being shot.

Israel never stopped exports other than due to attacks.

Israel prohibits the import of weapons (which should not be needed) and severely restricts dual-use items. For a while they blocked all imports by Hamas, but Hamas is such a big part of the economy that that proved impractical.

Natural gas resources: Last I knew there was a dispute as to how to measure territorial waters. When the coastline isn't straight (and it never is) where is the dividing line between countries? My memory (I'm not going to take the time to dig it out) is that one projection went straight from the Palestinian coast and the other assigned territory based on which country it was closer to.

Generate electricity: Pay the fuel bill. Nobody's stopping them from using it, just not providing free fuel.

Pick crops: I'm not aware of this one. Perhaps the Hamas tactic of sending people to the no-go zone at the border to get them shot.

Fish: They are limited in how far out they can go because there was too much smuggling.

That was a chance for Gaza to show they can live in peace with their neighbor. It could have been a blueprint for eventual statehood.

And here we are, back at considering how and why the greenhouse project and other investments in Gaza's economy ultimately failed.

Yes, it could have been a success story. It could have been a time of disengagement from hostilities and engagement in mutually beneficial projects. It could have been a time of economic growth and prosperity for both Palestinians and Israelis. That didn't happen. And you'll never get a clue why unless you look into the history and follow the facts, not just buy into Loren's bullshit and spout off nonsense in defense of a fairy tale you like to believe is true.

Try following the facts rather than assuming Israel is always in the wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright.

While the Zionist entity is only in the ME, all Zionists are not. Please share any actual evidence that Hamas desires to eliminate Zionists in other parts of the world. Without such evidence, there is no reason to accept your opinion as valid.

They try to hide it, most sources are Arabic and they are pointed out by Jewish sources so you won't like them. But:

Senior Hamas official calls on members of Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews | Christians United for Israel

A senior Hamas official has urged members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews around the world. Fathi Hammad, a member of Hamas’s politburo who is considered a hard-liner and […]

cufi.org

URL says enough. They try to distance from what he says, but note that they haven't removed him. Thus they clearly do not have any substantial disagreement with his words.

Please stop telling me what I will like or not. The report is troubling if accurate. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

However, Hamas is mostly comprised of Gazans, and since Hamas members clearly takes steps to survive, it is bleeding obvious that Hamas cares about Gazans. They may not value Gazans who are not members of Hamas as much as those who are members of Hamas, but that does not require not caring at all.

It is bleeding obvious that you are wrong. Hamas is controlled by Iran, not Gaza. And note "but that does not require not caring at all"--but neither does it preclude it.

Your third sentence contradicts the first one. But nothing you wrote addressed my argument - that Hamas cares enough about Gazans because Hamas is populated with Gazans.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright. You even stated who is the Zionist entity in your original comment.
Though nice attempt to dodge the issue that Hamas is only interested in Hamas. Hamas does not want the Gazans to be free and govern themselves in Gaza. It cares nothing for the Gazans except as grist to their mill.

Couple of things here:

The Hamas Charter explicitly stated that Hamas' fight isn't against Jews. Hamas wants to govern all Palestinians. Palestinian Jews with ancestors who were citizens of the Ottoman Empire would be full citizens of the future State it describes. You might have your doubts that the current leadership and rank-and-file members would honor that part of the Charter. I certainly have mine. But your claim that the fight against the 'Zionist entity' the Charter is talking about means the extermination of all Jews in the Middle East is unsupported.

Also, I believe Hamas' leadership believes that if they succeed the people of Gaza would be free, because they would be free of the Zionist entity. Free of Hamas is a different matter.

As far as seeing Gazans as grist for their mill, I'm sure some Hamas members do that but I think there are more who truly believe their only chance at peace and proosperity is through winning the guerrilla war they're engaged in, and are pretty pissed that the IDF keeps killing unarmed civilians.

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

www.theatlantic.com

After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel comes right out and admits it plans ethnic cleanings, forced deportations in Gaza. Boosted by Trump, of course.

How do you like that, supporters of Israel’s insane war?

I have already said I would consider this genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Meanwhile, the 3 month blockade of food and other essentials continues with the number of children reported to be treated for acute malnutrition rising from 2,000 in February to 3,600 in March.

This is one of those things where we said that this act wouldn't lead to the release of hostages. It has not led to the release of the hostages. Continuing it won't lead to the release of the hostages. So the only reason to do it is to make the people suffer. Because they haven't risen up and attacked the people holding all of the guns.

It is inhumane and unjustifiable.

1) Where is the mass starvation that should have resulted? We see no pictures--clearly it is not happening.

2) It has, however, put a big crimp in Hamas' ability to pay it's people since they can't steal aid that doesn't exist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

 

[Arctish]

Which means there such a thing as a “Palestinian “.

Not in the sense we use word today. Face it, there was no Palestinian national identity in the 1940s. PLO invented it for tactical purposes, as their then leader Mohsen admitted.

And using that a term as a descriptor that people of the time fix not use is common. Really, your argument cannot be taken seriously.

It can and should be taken seriously.

Whatever one's view about the degree of Hamas;'s commitment to your view of "prosperity", it has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting Hamas or terrorism. People frequently over opinions and views on subjects or outcomes without condoning them.

It's an example of Arctish defending Hamas on here.

It was an example of me taking Loren to task for blatant bullshitting, and you white knighting him in support of any attack on Palestinians no matter how inane.

I should thank you for taking this tack. I was in the process of composing an answer to your post here starting with your question "why should a country have to import goods from a neighbor that is actively attacking it?" by once again going through the history of Israel forcing the Gazans to do it before moving on to the rest of your assertions, when I decided to keep reading posts and catch up to the conversation. That's when I saw this and now this post as well. It appears you are trying to drag the conversation away from any acknowledgement of Loren's bullshitting by bullshitting about me.

If you think I posted a defense of Hamas, quote me.

Do it, Derec. Post the quotes, with links. I want to see what you're talking about. And don't try to weasel out of it by claiming you are paraphrasing me or that the true meaning of my posts is 'spiritually discerned' by enlightened folks, or shit like that.

Calling out bullshitting about historical events is not a defense of a political party. Those are two entirely separate actions, which you appear to understand in other contexts but for some reason are posting as though you don't understand when it comes to Israel and Palestine.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

JFC! They literally buried ambulances along with people bound and shot in the head.

They've also consistently denied the existence of the tunnels and that they build their military based under hospitals and schools. They're not even honest about their mission statement. Ie, being a Iranian tool whose sole existence is about destabalising Israel. Not Palestinian prosperity.

The question we should rather be asking, when was Hamas honest about anything?

 

[Arctish]

Because that was the proposal Palestinians accepted and it's the one I'm citing.

Note: "privately agreed" and "would have to gain popular support through a national referendum". In other words, they were offering something they knew they couldn't deliver.

You made up a meaningless scenario as a supposed rebuttal. The only return the Palestinians are going to accept is everyone, including all their descendants living in other countries.

Bullshit. Also, racist fear mongering.

They have made it very clear for a very long time what "right of return" means. They have painted themselves into a corner that utterly precludes taking any other path. They have also made it very clear what they intend if they get control: genocide.

It's not racist fear mongering to think they intend what they repeatedly say they intend. They have done a very through job of stomping out any dissent and a lifetime of brainwashing.

Bullshit.

It happened for 400 years right there in Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th.

And blacks peacefully coexisted with whites during Jim Crow. That's the "peace" you want.

Expand on this, please. In what way were the lives of blacks under Jim Crow law comparable to the lives of Jews in Palestine under Ottoman rule? It looks like you're making an appeal to emotion by using trigger words but I'm willing to discuss this with you (again).

No, this isn't an appeal to emotion, just the most relevant comparison I can think of. Reasonable peace assuming they are sufficiently subservient and there will be occasional killings for no reason.

We have already discussed the jizya tax and how it applied to Jews, Christians, Druze, Yazidis, etc. We also discussed the representation of the various ethnic and religious communities at the upper echelons of the government, and the degree of self-rule each community enjoyed, so don't pretend you don't know just how much religious freedom and local control people had under the millet system.

They were better off there than in other Arab lands but that doesn't make it not bad.

And anyway, I have already said I don't think the Ottoman system was perfect or that there wasn't room for improvement, so don't try to mischaracterize my posts, either.

The point is you want a return to the supposed "coexistence"--I'm pointing out what you want to return to.

I said the people of Palestine enjoyed 400 years of peaceful coexistence under Ottoman rule, that the only times I know about where ethnic strife occurred were two times the Ottomans briefly lost control, and that the claim that Palestinian Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't live together in peace is arrant nonsense. So you can either demonstrate (with links) that the lives of Palestinians weren't peaceful, that ethnic strife was ongoing, or you can accept the inconvenient truth that Palestinian Jews didn't join the European immigrants in the Zionist movement because they didn't feel the need for a Jewish State when the multi-ethnic, multi-religion, multi-cultural society they lived in was something they valued and wanted to preserve.

Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they didn't happen. Small pogroms happened, weren't notable. It was simply part of life as a Jew. And you're referring to the European immigrants--do you not realize that the majority of Jews in Israel are of Arab descent, the ones that were driven out of their homes in 1948?

If it really were about the actions of Europeans rather than about Jews we wouldn't have seen the expulsions of 1948.

And now that they rebelled and threw off their oppressors they don't dare go back. Think of domestic violence, it's a perfect model for what's happening.

Who is "they"?

The European Jews who immigrated to Palestine and fought to create a Jewish State were escaping other Europeans.

That's not addressing the comparison at all.

And note that the majority of Jews came from Arab lands, not Europe.

I note you keep saying that but when asked to back up your claim the best you can do is show that Jews emigrated to Israel in the decades following its founding and that you keep including Algerian Jews in the count despite the fact that most of the Jews who left Algeria did so in order to retain their French citizenship, and that most of them went to France.

If you have evidence Palestinian Jews were oppressed by their Palestinian Christian and Muslim neighbors, share it with the rest of us.

Back up your claims, Loren.

You still aren't addressing the fact that you want the abuse victim to go back to their abuser. And pointing to one country doesn't address the overall picture.

Map of the Jewish Refugees Arab/Muslim Countries (1948-1972)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Note that Algeria doesn't have that much more exodus than the other countries.

And anyway, your posting history indicates you don't give a fuck when it's Jews moving into settlements in the West Bank where they will be vastly outnumbered by non-Jews, so why the pearl clutching when it's a few thousand non-Jewish refugees returning to their former homes in Israel? Could it be that your argument is nothing but racist fearmongering in defense of preserving the results of ethnic cleansing? It certainly looks that way.

It's not a few thousand, it would be several million.

Says who?

Link to your source that says the Return of the refugees would mean several million immediately moving in who would be immediately eligible to vote and would overthrow the government and march Jews off to death camps. They sound both hysterical and extremely ill-informed. That or else they're truly, deeply anti-Psemitic racists spouting off about how much they detest the idea of Palestinians living in the religious ethno-state of their dreams.

I'm saying that several million right now is the only right of return that the Palestinians will accept. You making up fantasies doesn't change that.

Even if you were right (and you clearly aren't, see the linked article above and ffs do some research before you spout off on what Palestinians will accept), that doesn't mean there can't be peaceful co-existence between Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Palestine, only that the hardcore bigoted Zionists won't have the exclusive Jewish ethno-state they envision.

The hardcore Islamists want an exclusive Muslim ethno-state. You don't seem to care about that.

And note that the Jews want the ethno-state because they want to live. The Islamists want to kill the Jews.

And again, not one link was given that day.

If you want to be taken seriously, post links to your sources and stop making shit up.

 

[Arctish]

That was a chance for Gaza to show they can live in peace with their neighbor. It could have been a blueprint for eventual statehood.

And here we are, back at considering how and why the greenhouse project and other investments in Gaza's economy ultimately failed.

Yes, it could have been a success story. It could have been a time of disengagement from hostilities and engagement in mutually beneficial projects. It could have been a time of economic growth and prosperity for both Palestinians and Israelis. That didn't happen. And you'll never get a clue why unless you look into the history and follow the facts, not just buy into Loren's bullshit and spout off nonsense in defense of a fairy tale you like to believe is true.

Try following the facts rather than assuming Israel is always in the wrong.

I do follow the facts. I encourage others to do the same. If you go back to the post that started this side discussion you will see that I was encouraging others to check out the facts for themselves.

Did you read any of the articles about the greenhouse project? Did you look for other reputable sources in order to fact check the sources I provided? If so, you surely know by now that what you posted was not merely unsupported assertions, it was so wrong it's unsupportable.

Are you ever going to learn the facts and remember them, or can we expect more bullshit from you in the future?

 

[laughing dog]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

WTF? When images from Gaza do appear, you claim they are staged.

 

[laughing dog]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

JFC! They literally buried ambulances along with people bound and shot in the head.

They've also consistently denied the existence of the tunnels and that they build their military based under hospitals and schools. They're not even honest about their mission statement. Ie, being a Iranian tool whose sole existence is about destabalising Israel. Not Palestinian prosperity.

The question we should rather be asking, when was Hamas honest about anything?

That is a legitimate question. Of course, it is legitimate to be skeptical of either side's claim in that massive clusterfuck of Gaza.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

They why ask for them?

From the video reports I have seen, it isn't Africa grade famine, but Jebus, where the fuck is your humanity? The children are likely hungry and underfed. Yes, Hamas is a major reason for this. Does that justify Israel making it even worse?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Punishing innocent people for the crimes of others is a war crime. Forcibly relocating people is a war crime. Starving people is a war crime. Israel is a war-criminal state, a pariah nation.

If people were actually starving Hamas would have a gazillion pictures to show the world.