Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[ZiprHead]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

Wow, you've really swallowed the Kool-Aid.

 

[laughing dog]

The international community effectively does support Hamas. Any actual wrongs by Hamas are tolerated or blamed on Israel, but Israel is automatically assumed guilty of things that are often staged.

I guess we area not to expect anything better from Israel than we get from Hamas.

you're asking us to take as a given something which is not true

Is that projection?
Where is your source saying that "70% of the Gazans killed by Israel since 10/23 are NOT women or children"?
Or were you asking us to take something that is not true, as a given?

In one eye and out the other. I have posted two damning links: amputations on males are way above amputations on females. And kids who lost their father are way above kids who lost their mother. Neither is remotely consistent with 70% women and children.

. Amputations are generally performed on living beings, so it is not clear how it demonstrates anything about who is killed. In fact, if anything, by itself, the fact amputations on males greatly exceeding those on females tends to confirm the observation that more females are killed than males. The stuff about children who lose one parent or the other is not terribly indicative of anything without more contextual information.

So you really need to show your work if you wish others to find your claims convincing.

What are you smoking??

What is your evidence that deaths trend opposite amputations?

I made no such claim.

Are you saying they let women die when they save men with amputations?

No, are you just making stuff up to avoid showing your work?

And the stuff about which parent they lost is very damning. Why in the world would that not follow the pattern of parent-age deaths?

You’re the one making the assertion - show your work.

 

[Elixir]

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

On what authority can you make such a proclamation?

 

[laughing dog]

How is "UN says..." different from "UN repeats the claims of violent Islamic terrorists."?
Tom

How is ^ this ^ different from "La la la la, I can't hear you"?

The point is that it was a supposedly credible source that actually just repeats the propaganda.

It is an understatement to call that mindblowing irony.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fuck Hamas is an absurd organisation. They have zero ability to protect Palestinian civilians. Yet, keep shooting rockets. They couldn't be a more morally corrupt organisation

Gaza air strikes follow heaviest rocket fire by Hamas in months

A journalist is reportedly killed in a strike at a hospital compound after 10 rockets are fired into Israel.

www.bbc.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

Loren, you aren't remotely stupid.

Scavengers off the crumpled buried ambulance?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Trump says he asked Israeli hostages if Hamas winked at them



It's okay, everyone. The Gaza crisis will be settled soon because Inspector Hair Furor is on the case.

 

[laughing dog]

Trump says he asked Israeli hostages if Hamas winked at them



It's okay, everyone. The Gaza crisis will be settled soon because Inspector Hair Furor is on the case.

I dunno. The Ukraine war is still going on and Trump said he'd have a deal on day one.

 

[TomC]

Trump says he asked Israeli hostages if Hamas winked at them



It's okay, everyone. The Gaza crisis will be settled soon because Inspector Hair Furor is on the case.

I dunno. The Ukraine war is still going on and Trump said he'd have a deal on day one.

Maybe he does.
It's just so craven and grifty, selling out America to the Russians, that he can't go public with it yet.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Former IDF soldier talks about tactics towards Palestinians.

 

[Politesse]

More on the medical caravan:

Autopsies of Gaza Medics Killed by Israeli Troops Show Some Were Shot in the Head

The paramedics and rescue workers killed in an Israeli shooting in Gaza last month died mainly from gunshots to the head or chest, while others had shrapnel injuries or other wounds, according to autopsy reports obtained by The New York Times.

Israeli troops had fired on ambulances and a fire truck sent by the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the Civil Defense, according to witness accounts, video and audio of the March 23 attack.

Israel acknowledged carrying out the attack, which killed 15 men: 14 rescue workers and a United Nations employee who drove by after the others were shot. Israeli soldiers buried most of the bodies in a mass grave, crushed the ambulances, fire truck and a U.N. vehicle, and buried those as well.

The more details emerge, the less defensible this sounds.

 

[laughing dog]

More on the medical caravan:

Autopsies of Gaza Medics Killed by Israeli Troops Show Some Were Shot in the Head

The paramedics and rescue workers killed in an Israeli shooting in Gaza last month died mainly from gunshots to the head or chest, while others had shrapnel injuries or other wounds, according to autopsy reports obtained by The New York Times.

Israeli troops had fired on ambulances and a fire truck sent by the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the Civil Defense, according to witness accounts, video and audio of the March 23 attack.

Israel acknowledged carrying out the attack, which killed 15 men: 14 rescue workers and a United Nations employee who drove by after the others were shot. Israeli soldiers buried most of the bodies in a mass grave, crushed the ambulances, fire truck and a U.N. vehicle, and buried those as well.

The more details emerge, the less defensible this sounds.

Given the mass grave, it is pretty obvious the IDF was ashamed of its actions. Now there is just more evidence of their wrongdoing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Civilians die in war. Looks like about 1:1 vs combatants once you apply the obvious corrections to the Hamas data. Much, much better than the 10:1 that would be expected.

Less “obvious” to me than the accuracy of the Ministry’s estimate. I seriously doubt that their estimate is off by twofold, let alone tenfold. Your expectations are belied by witnesses.

The ministry is counting combatants as civilians. Given the total lack of a combatant count from Hamas we are left with using the only number around: Israel's estimate of 20,000 dead terrorists. There's most of your twofold error right there.

And from some time ago we had ~4,000 entries that were garbage or people who had died previously. Those were never acknowledged but a good portion of them eventually disappeared from the lists--but the number dead did not go down. We also have natural causes deaths on the list.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, it is. The government would fall in the next election, Hamas would be elected and carry out their genocide.

So, if the Palestinian refugees returned in a slow trickle of individuals, in controlled stages no less, the government of Israel would immediately fall and genocide against Jews would get underway.

And what makes you assume a trickle in controlled stages???

How many self-hating Jews do you suppose there are in Israel? They must be almost exactly as numerous as Jews who want to survive. So, 3.5 million or more?

I would call your post delusional if I didn't know that your schtick is bullshit. But in the interests of giving you a chance to back up your assertion, tell us why you think a few thousand refugees returning to their former communities means genocide against an overwhelming majority that has control of the government, armed forces, and economy.

You made up a meaningless scenario as a supposed rebuttal. The only return the Palestinians are going to accept is everyone, including all their descendants living in other countries.

Jews don't die when justice prevails. In fact, the opposite happens. Peaceful co-existence might be detrimental to a certain faction's plans to dominate a religious ethno-state but it is beneficial to the people who experience it. As someone who lives in a place where peaceful co-existence is the norm, not the exception, you might have noticed that.

You have some very naive views of what would happen. Peaceful coexistence has never happened, the only question is just how much violence was directed at the Jews.

Bullshit.

It happened for 400 years right there in Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th.

And blacks peacefully coexisted with whites during Jim Crow. That's the "peace" you want.

And now that they rebelled and threw off their oppressors they don't dare go back. Think of domestic violence, it's a perfect model for what's happening.

Who is "they"?

The European Jews who immigrated to Palestine and fought to create a Jewish State were escaping other Europeans.

That's not addressing the comparison at all.

And note that the majority of Jews came from Arab lands, not Europe.

And anyway, your posting history indicates you don't give a fuck when it's Jews moving into settlements in the West Bank where they will be vastly outnumbered by non-Jews, so why the pearl clutching when it's a few thousand non-Jewish refugees returning to their former homes in Israel? Could it be that your argument is nothing but racist fearmongering in defense of preserving the results of ethnic cleansing? It certainly looks that way.

It's not a few thousand, it would be several million.

Says who?

Link to your source that says the Return of the refugees would mean several million immediately moving in who would be immediately eligible to vote and would overthrow the government and march Jews off to death camps. They sound both hysterical and extremely ill-informed. That or else they're truly, deeply anti-Psemitic racists spouting off about how much they detest the idea of Palestinians living in the religious ethno-state of their dreams.

I'm saying that several million right now is the only right of return that the Palestinians will accept. You making up fantasies doesn't change that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No people just give a damn about human rights, apparently you don't.

Do you mean those of us who support multiethnic democracy?
Or violent Muslim terrorists?

Because it's pretty obvious to me which side you fall on. Rather like a bunch of other people on this forum.
Tom

The overwhelming majority of posters on this forum support multiethnic democracy.

It's just that some here think they can have one in Israel while carefully controlling the mix of religious communities and ethnicities so that Jews will always occupy the most favorable social position, while others realize that as long as non-Jewish Palestinians are discriminated against, it isn't really the multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity it's claimed to be.

You can't build a just and fair society on a foundation of bias and bigotry. Israel can either be the Jewish State that exists for the benefit of Jews alone, or it can be a multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity to all. Or it can be a partner in peace with a Palestinian State (or more than one), as a way to have its cake and eat it, too.

And you can sooth your conscience and say you didn't intend genocide. Your "morality" is based on actions, not outcomes. We are looking at outcomes and consider your disregard for them to be evil.

What action are you looking at? And what outcome? Be specific.

If it's something historical, cite the historians or link to articles. If it's a current event, link to your news sources.

You want to be fair to the Palestinians. You're completely unwilling to consider that the outcome would be genocide. That's not your action. Thus you're moral.

What actions are you looking at? And what outcomes?

Be specific.

Your argument here is that being fair to Palestinians will result in genocide. I say your argument is bullshit racist fear mongering. I cited the history of Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th, with links, earlier in this thread in support of my claims that Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Muslims, and Palestinians of other faiths, can live in peace in a just and fair society. If you are claiming that they can't, explain yourself.


***ETA because I don't trust everyone here to be an honest partner in a discussion: I am not claiming that the Ottoman Empire was perfect, or that it didn't levy an extra tax on non-Muslims, or that the LGBTQ+ community was as well supported as the straight male community, or any other straw man arguments people can concoct. I am citing the history of peaceful co-existence in Palestine among various religious communities and directly refuting the racist anti-Psemitic claim that it is not possible for Palestinian Christians and Muslims to live in peace with Jews.

I am being specific despite the attempts to muddy the waters.

By their definition Right of Return means all Palestinian descendants going to Israel immediately. Just because you want it to be something else doesn't make it so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why they came to naught was that Hamas doesn't like prosperity.

Interesting.

Please share your links which have given you the idea Hamas' doesn't like prosperity.

Because they constantly act in a fashion to preclude it.

I suspect it's a racist screed that dehumanizes Palestinians, but I could be wrong. It might be a carefully researched, perceptive, and insightful analysis of the inner workings of a terrorist organization with a strange aversion to something most terrorists want very much.

I didn't say the Palestinians don't like prosperity. I specifically said Hamas. Last I checked Hamas isn't a race. And it's not because of race but rather that if there is prosperity the people won't be desperate enough to enlist with Hamas. The Palestinian territories used to be the most prosperous non-oil Arab nation. Now there's little more than Hamas.

Understand that Hamas answers to Iran, not Gaza. They are not acting in the interests of Gaza and most of their actions are decidedly not in the interests of the people.

Just because some of us don't bother to distinguish Hamas from Gaza from the people of Gaza doesn't mean we don't recognize the difference. We are just using labels of convenience, like people might say that Washington wants something when they mean the US government.

Hamas shells the checkpoint so Israel pulls it's people under cover and thus closes the checkpoint. There goes the produce. Hamas knew what would happen when they shelled the checkpoint.

When did Hamas shell the checkpoint? Was it a one-time event or did it happen more than once? Did it ever happen when Jewish settlers were the ones exporting produce?

It happens every so often. It usually doesn't make the news.

And you're asking a stupid question--there are no Jewish settlers exporting produce through checkpoints into Gaza, thus the notion of Hamas shelling them is nonsense.

Be specific.

If you want to discuss events you have to provide links to reports about them. You have to do your own research and know at least a little bit about the topic. That's how discussions here work.

So, link to your source and let's sort out the facts from the fiction. As I recall, you fell for that racist story about Palestinians destroying the greenhouses like petulant children. Have you looked into it any further than that?

Are you saying they weren't destroyed??

And it's not petulant children, it's carefully orchestrated by the terrorists.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Civilians die in war. Looks like about 1:1 vs combatants once you apply the obvious corrections to the Hamas data. Much, much better than the 10:1 that would be expected.

Less “obvious” to me than the accuracy of the Ministry’s estimate. I seriously doubt that their estimate is off by twofold, let alone tenfold. Your expectations are belied by witnesses.

The ministry is counting combatants as civilians. Given the total lack of a combatant count from Hamas we are left with using the only number around: Israel's estimate of 20,000 dead terrorists. There's most of your twofold error right there.

And from some time ago we had ~4,000 entries that were garbage or people who had died previously. Those were never acknowledged but a good portion of them eventually disappeared from the lists--but the number dead did not go down. We also have natural causes deaths on the list.

The civilian organisation of Hamas has collapsed. Their numbers mean nothing. They're all pulled from the air. It's not that they're exaggerated. Exaggeration assumes a baseline number to inflate. They don't have that

Its bizarre how Hamas keeps whining about IDF attacks while they're shooting rockets from civilian target areas.

I think all Hamas supporters are moraly corrupt. Unless you are supporting the IDF, you are supporting Hamas. They're still the only two sides in this conflict. I hope a credible Palestinian anti Hamas emerges. Until then IDF is the only moral side here

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The international community effectively does support Hamas. Any actual wrongs by Hamas are tolerated or blamed on Israel, but Israel is automatically assumed guilty of things that are often staged.

I guess we area not to expect anything better from Israel than we get from Hamas.

you're asking us to take as a given something which is not true

Is that projection?
Where is your source saying that "70% of the Gazans killed by Israel since 10/23 are NOT women or children"?
Or were you asking us to take something that is not true, as a given?

In one eye and out the other. I have posted two damning links: amputations on males are way above amputations on females. And kids who lost their father are way above kids who lost their mother. Neither is remotely consistent with 70% women and children.

. Amputations are generally performed on living beings, so it is not clear how it demonstrates anything about who is killed. In fact, if anything, by itself, the fact amputations on males greatly exceeding those on females tends to confirm the observation that more females are killed than males. The stuff about children who lose one parent or the other is not terribly indicative of anything without more contextual information.

So you really need to show your work if you wish others to find your claims convincing.

What are you smoking??

What is your evidence that deaths trend opposite amputations?

I made no such claim.

Then please explain what you mean by "exceeding those on females tends to confirm the observation that more females are killed than males."

Are you saying they let women die when they save men with amputations?

No, are you just making stuff up to avoid showing your work?

You need to show your work as you are making claims that don't make any sense.

And the stuff about which parent they lost is very damning. Why in the world would that not follow the pattern of parent-age deaths?

You’re the one making the assertion - show your work.

I made an assertion--that the group with more amputations probably suffered more harm. You are presenting no sensible reason to disagree with this, but you are anyway. Please explain how this isn't just an attempt to derail.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

Loren, you aren't remotely stupid.

Scavengers off the crumpled buried ambulance?

You think they were still in the ambulance???

And you think a crumbled vehicle could possibly keep off scavengers?? Do you have no experience with wildlife? You can't just leave corpses laying around without scavengers showing up.

Have you never run into the instructions for blowing up a dead horse?

The US Forest Service Guide To Completely Obliterating A Horse With Explosives

Trust us, this is not something you want to get wrong.

www.iflscience.com

Think something like that would exist if there wasn't sometimes an issue with dead horses bringing scavengers??

And note that's the US Forest Service, hardly a combat organization.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trump says he asked Israeli hostages if Hamas winked at them



It's okay, everyone. The Gaza crisis will be settled soon because Inspector Hair Furor is on the case.

Love the name!