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Dem Post Mortem

The funny thing is that Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.
Honestly, I have trouble figuring out what you mean in that whole post.
But this part I am extremely sure about. Jarhyn and Politesse are very similar to Derec and TSwizzle. They pretend that they are not extremists, but they are.

And extremists are what is destroying the USA, not any particular flavor of extremism.
Tom
I make no pretense of not being an "extremist". Or at least, I don't care if people call me an extremist over issues that I actually do care about. There are some things I'm willing to risk my life over, and do, again and again: My marriage. My freedom of speech. Freedom of academic inquiry. My right to call out atrocities like the fundamental wrongness of enslavement and genocide.

I spent the first twenty years of my life in a closet, and I'm not going back in, no matter what changes. I'd not want to live in a world without those certain convictions. I'm not embarassed about that, and if you want to call that extremism, go ahead.

But you know, I don't think Derec and Tswizzle actually understand that kind of love. If they do, certainly don't write about it on here. I'd be interested to learn what, if anything, they actually love about this country for a change, rather than what they hate and fear about it.
 
The funny thing is that Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.
Honestly, I have trouble figuring out what you mean in that whole post.
But this part I am extremely sure about. Jarhyn and Politesse are very similar to Derec and TSwizzle. They pretend that they are not extremists, but they are.

And extremists are what is destroying the USA, not any particular flavor of extremism.
Tom
I make no pretense of not being an "extremist". Or at least, I don't care if people call me an extremist over issues that I actually do care about. There are some things I'm willing to risk my life over, and do, again and again: My marriage. My freedom of speech. Freedom of academic inquiry. My right to call out atrocities like the fundamental wrongness of enslavement and genocide.

I spent the first twenty years of my life in a closet, and I'm not going back in, no matter what changes. I'd not want to live in a world without those certain convictions. I'm not embarassed about that, and if you want to call that extremism, go ahead.

But you know, I don't think Derec and Tswizzle actually understand that kind of love. If they do, certainly don't write about it on here. I'd be interested to learn what, if anything, they actually love about this country for a change, rather than what they hate and fear about it.
That's what I just don't get.

How can any fool mistake what I feel for happiness?

I am just disappointed and sad.

I'm sad that people didn't listen to the call to hold to the left, and that now the center has ticked past "kings".

I am so sad, but the fact is, this was going to happen ever since the Dems lost their spines some time in the first Clinton administration.

People just didn't want to hear "this will cause Nazis", with respect to leaning rightward.

You can't count on someone to keep your ass out of the fire if you are going to sell them out whenever it becomes politically convenient.
 
This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted.
That's a natural reaction, though that feeling can be a springboard for actually learning about the issues at hand. If you let it.

I find your remark somewhat ambiguous. Do you or do you not support removing Abraham Lincoln's name from schools to cease honoring his racism?
 
This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted.
That's a natural reaction, though that feeling can be a springboard for actually learning about the issues at hand. If you let it.

I find your remark somewhat ambiguous. Do you or do you not support removing Abraham Lincoln's name from schools to cease honoring his racism?
That's up to the school board, I would imagine.

But I don't think there's any harm in learning about why his legacy is considered complicated for some.

lincoln-statue-boston-5626cc96f7a7ec79b4d5d009be69fc99149b14af.webp
 
This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted.
That's a natural reaction, though that feeling can be a springboard for actually learning about the issues at hand. If you let it.

I find your remark somewhat ambiguous. Do you or do you not support removing Abraham Lincoln's name from schools to cease honoring his racism?
That's up to the school board, I would imagine.

But I don't think there's any harm in learning about why his legacy is considered complicated for some.

View attachment 50989
Yeah, I have no problem discussing that Lincoln had some issues with his ethics, and I think that should be taught right alongside the things he accomplished.

I'm a little sad the right thing was a matter of political expediency for him, and sadder still that he made such dark decisions as he did.

I think that should be known.

If I had gotten to learn the dark history of my own nation, perhaps I would have cared more about history classes.
 
It's more, I really just wish a lot of the people enabling fascists would wake up and say to themselves "oh shit, have I been enabling fascism with my political choices? Maybe I have!" And then maybe live with a little more anxiety, in exchange for ceasing to enable fascism.

When someone is asked explicitly to do that, and told repeatedly over the course of decades that this is what is being done, and then doesn't do that, and instead leans towards the policies and concerns of the "center" between people who want to burn down the world and the people who want to reinforce it, now, against such burnings, what is someone to ascertain but that they are one of the people who do actually accept the burning?
What you keep missing is that pushing towards the left helps the fascists.
 
It's more, I really just wish a lot of the people enabling fascists would wake up and say to themselves "oh shit, have I been enabling fascism with my political choices? Maybe I have!" And then maybe live with a little more anxiety, in exchange for ceasing to enable fascism.

When someone is asked explicitly to do that, and told repeatedly over the course of decades that this is what is being done, and then doesn't do that, and instead leans towards the policies and concerns of the "center" between people who want to burn down the world and the people who want to reinforce it, now, against such burnings, what is someone to ascertain but that they are one of the people who do actually accept the burning?
What you keep missing is that pushing towards the left helps the fascists.
Not from my perspective. Fascism IS the failure to hold left. It is forgetting what we are fighting against and becoming it because those who have forgotten do not know any better.

It is a slow, demented forgetting of our own past and history and leaning into those same mistakes because of it.
 
What you keep missing is that pushing towards the left helps the fascists.
Only in a state that is already trending towards fascism.

"Rights for x minority? That's gone too far, I'm voting for Hitler!" is not a thought the average citizen has in a healthy liberal democracy.
 
What you keep missing is that pushing towards the left helps the fascists.
Only in a state that is already trending towards fascism.

"Rights for x minority? That's gone too far, I'm voting for Hitler!" is not a thought the average citizen has in a healthy liberal democracy.
It already IS fascism, as if "eliminating rights important to a minority" is anything but... If that "helps" fascism, then the problem is that fascism has won and the tree of liberty has been feeling thirsty.

Progressives would rather water it with the tears of fascists rather than their blood, but when people cease their resolve to acquire fascist tears, well...
 
Yeaaaa, I don't agree! I think that your side, favoring candidates that are so far to the left that they are unelectable
If that's the real problem, the ballot box will take care of it in any case. But I am not exactly impressed with the calibre of "centrist Democrats" lately. You say we must back them or die, because they have mass popularity and Progressives do not. But they don't have mass popularity. If the Democrat status quo is as wildly popular with the mythologized middle American voter as centrists claim, why does a country whose citizens are only 46% Republican-leaning have a majority Republican government, currently poised to overthrow the government altogether with paltry resistance?

The numbers don't lie: Plenty of the "mostly Democrat but with reservations" types voted for Trump. Not for the good cop. So why does the DNC leadership keep putting wannabe good cops on the ticket, against the will of the party itself? Harris had to be appointed by dubiously legitimate means, because when she tried to run for the office the honest way, the primaries decimated her utterly, before her home state even had the chance to vote. Some popularity contest!
You're in a hole and demanding to dig deeper. We lost the country because the Democrats are left of the electorate.
 
Amazing endorsements of that post you have there. Sorry @Swammerdami, you're in bad company there.

Look at this strawman of an argument! Your supported candidates were the ones who rolled over. Gore rolled over. If Gore had had the strength progressives demand of candidates, Gore wouldn't have lost.

But this isn't about Gore, however weak he was in the end This is about Hillary and Harris.

There is a really easy way to make sure that Dems who can win who are not going to bow to fascist aims win: vote for the Dems who are not going to bow to fascist aims. Support those Dems. Don't pretend that they are "unelectable" because their "unelectability" is a Tinkerbell effect, and it ends as soon as you stop letting yourself and your peers believe it without challenge.

It's really that simple.

Of course, the Dems you elect, the actual people you think can "win elections" do not make Americans lives better, now or ever really. All they do is, ironically, act conservatively to resist the backslide of the whole country, but in the weakest way possible.

They don't oppose citizens United or big money in politics.

They don't support corporate tax rates that would actually improve the lives of their constituents.

They don't even support raising the minimum wage.

They don't support single payer solutions.

They don't support taking big pharma down a peg.

If all you support is keeping the trains running on time, you will eventually be issued a ticket on a train you would rather not be on.
You're still not showing how alienating even more voters is supposed to help.

You want a candidate that supports what you want, but that's unelectable and would lose abysmally.
 
Yeaaaa, I don't agree! I think that your side, favoring candidates that are so far to the left that they are unelectable
If that's the real problem, the ballot box will take care of it in any case. But I am not exactly impressed with the calibre of "centrist Democrats" lately. You say we must back them or die, because they have mass popularity and Progressives do not. But they don't have mass popularity. If the Democrat status quo is as wildly popular with the mythologized middle American voter as centrists claim, why does a country whose citizens are only 46% Republican-leaning have a majority Republican government, currently poised to overthrow the government altogether with paltry resistance?

The numbers don't lie: Plenty of the "mostly Democrat but with reservations" types voted for Trump. Not for the good cop. So why does the DNC leadership keep putting wannabe good cops on the ticket, against the will of the party itself? Harris had to be appointed by dubiously legitimate means, because when she tried to run for the office the honest way, the primaries decimated her utterly, before her home state even had the chance to vote. Some popularity contest!
You're in a hole and demanding to dig deeper. We lost the country because the Democrats are left of the electorate.
The electorate is right of both the party and me at the moment, but I am not inclined to abandon and replace my principles every two years, simply because they have grown unpopular in the current media cycle.

Have you ever considered running for office? You would make an excellent Democrat.
 
Yeaaaa, I don't agree! I think that your side, favoring candidates that are so far to the left that they are unelectable
If that's the real problem, the ballot box will take care of it in any case. But I am not exactly impressed with the calibre of "centrist Democrats" lately. You say we must back them or die, because they have mass popularity and Progressives do not. But they don't have mass popularity. If the Democrat status quo is as wildly popular with the mythologized middle American voter as centrists claim, why does a country whose citizens are only 46% Republican-leaning have a majority Republican government, currently poised to overthrow the government altogether with paltry resistance?

The numbers don't lie: Plenty of the "mostly Democrat but with reservations" types voted for Trump. Not for the good cop. So why does the DNC leadership keep putting wannabe good cops on the ticket, against the will of the party itself? Harris had to be appointed by dubiously legitimate means, because when she tried to run for the office the honest way, the primaries decimated her utterly, before her home state even had the chance to vote. Some popularity contest!
You're in a hole and demanding to dig deeper. We lost the country because the Democrats are left of the electorate.
Please provide some basis to believe that?

I posted several lefty positions that the majority of people support. You accused me of being in a bubble so I provided the numbers to prove that support.

Now here you are again trying to claim the country isn't as left as they are by the numbers and yet again you are not providing evidence to support your position.
 
We were outvoted by the ignorant.

The biggest change of the last election was the participation of people who generally do not pay attention to politics actually voting this time.
In the 2024 election, Donald Trump gained a surprising edge from an unlikely group: Americans who typically don’t vote. According to a New York Times analysis, these low-turnout voters backed Trump by a double-digit margin, flipping the script from prior years when non-voters leaned Democratic. This wasn’t just a quirk of the horse-race polls; Campaign operatives, analysts, and post-election surveys all pointed to the same conclusion: The less you followed politics, the more likely you were to vote for Trump.

But now that he's president again, something’s shifted.

New polling shows that the very voters who powered Trump’s return to office are now abandoning him. And if that trend holds, it could upend assumptions about how much campaign messaging and elite discourse really matter. Because it turns out the people who don’t read the Times, don’t watch the Sunday shows, and don’t care about the policy details... still care when the economy sours and their lives get harder.

This is the story of the disengaged voter: why they showed up for Trump, why they’re turning on him now, and what that tells us about political accountability in the era of the “engagement gap.”
What Trump's election showed us was the consequences of an increasing engagement gap in U.S. politics. And by engagement, I do not just mean engagement in the voting process, but engagement in politics or with political information whatsoever. For example, a post-election survey from Data for Progress found that the voters who paid the most attention to the news in 2024 voted for Kamala Harris by 6 percentage points, while those who paid no attention at all voted for Trump by 19. Democrats are also posting huge numbers in special elections, largely because low-engagement voters just aren't showing up.

1749842750037.png

Comparing these crosstabs for YouGov's first poll of Trump's presidency, conducted Jan. 26–28, 2025, to their most recent survey, fielded April 25–28, 2025, we see a massive 33 percentage point decline in Trump's net approval rating over the last 3 months with people who consume the least news. When Trump was inaugurated, net approval among people who say they read or watch news “hardly at all” was +12, and it's now -21. That compares to just a 14-point drop in Trump approval, from +3 to -11, among people who say they pay attention to the news "most of the time."

Much more detail in the link.

 
Yeaaaa, I don't agree! I think that your side, favoring candidates that are so far to the left that they are unelectable
If that's the real problem, the ballot box will take care of it in any case. But I am not exactly impressed with the calibre of "centrist Democrats" lately. You say we must back them or die, because they have mass popularity and Progressives do not. But they don't have mass popularity. If the Democrat status quo is as wildly popular with the mythologized middle American voter as centrists claim, why does a country whose citizens are only 46% Republican-leaning have a majority Republican government, currently poised to overthrow the government altogether with paltry resistance?

The numbers don't lie: Plenty of the "mostly Democrat but with reservations" types voted for Trump. Not for the good cop. So why does the DNC leadership keep putting wannabe good cops on the ticket, against the will of the party itself? Harris had to be appointed by dubiously legitimate means, because when she tried to run for the office the honest way, the primaries decimated her utterly, before her home state even had the chance to vote. Some popularity contest!
You're in a hole and demanding to dig deeper. We lost the country because the Democrats are left of the electorate.
Please provide some basis to believe that?

I posted several lefty positions that the majority of people support. You accused me of being in a bubble so I provided the numbers to prove that support.

Now here you are again trying to claim the country isn't as left as they are by the numbers and yet again you are not providing evidence to support your position.
Well most view Harris as to Bidens left. She lost millions of Biden voters. They voted for Trump. We have to get those voters back.
 
Yeaaaa, I don't agree! I think that your side, favoring candidates that are so far to the left that they are unelectable
If that's the real problem, the ballot box will take care of it in any case. But I am not exactly impressed with the calibre of "centrist Democrats" lately. You say we must back them or die, because they have mass popularity and Progressives do not. But they don't have mass popularity. If the Democrat status quo is as wildly popular with the mythologized middle American voter as centrists claim, why does a country whose citizens are only 46% Republican-leaning have a majority Republican government, currently poised to overthrow the government altogether with paltry resistance?

The numbers don't lie: Plenty of the "mostly Democrat but with reservations" types voted for Trump. Not for the good cop. So why does the DNC leadership keep putting wannabe good cops on the ticket, against the will of the party itself? Harris had to be appointed by dubiously legitimate means, because when she tried to run for the office the honest way, the primaries decimated her utterly, before her home state even had the chance to vote. Some popularity contest!
You're in a hole and demanding to dig deeper. We lost the country because the Democrats are left of the electorate.
Please provide some basis to believe that?

I posted several lefty positions that the majority of people support. You accused me of being in a bubble so I provided the numbers to prove that support.

Now here you are again trying to claim the country isn't as left as they are by the numbers and yet again you are not providing evidence to support your position.
Well most view Harris as to Bidens left. She lost millions. of Biden voters. They voted for Trump. We have to get those voters back.
Harris has little to do with the political positions of the American people.

Per Gemini

People's views of Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have shifted over time, especially since the announcement that Harris would replace Biden as the Democratic nominee for the 2024 presidential election.
Here's a breakdown of how people generally view each individual:
Kamala Harris:
  • Improved Favorability: Harris's favorable rating has generally increased since she became the presumptive Democratic nominee. For example, one poll in October 2024 showed her approval rating at 45%. However, it's worth noting that perceptions of her are still "underwater," meaning that while her favorability has risen, more Americans still view her unfavorably than favorably.
  • Stronger Support Among Democrats: Harris's supporters, particularly Democrats, express stronger support for her than they did for Biden in similar circumstances. For example, 62% of Harris voters in August 2024 said they strongly supported her, compared to 43% of Biden voters in July of that year.
  • Increased Enthusiasm within the Democratic Party: Democrats are more enthusiastic and satisfied with Harris as their candidate compared to their previous feelings about Biden.
  • Mixed Opinions: Voters describe Harris in various ways, with "strong" being a frequently used term, but also terms like "weak" and "inexperienced" appearing.
Joe Biden:
  • Broad Unpopularity: Biden remains broadly unpopular, with a high percentage of Americans holding an unfavorable opinion of him.
  • Favorable Rating among Democrats: Biden's favorable rating among Democrats saw a slight uptick after his withdrawal from the 2024 race.
  • Views on his Presidency: A majority of Americans view Biden's presidency overall as a failure.
Overall Comparison:
  • Approval Ratings: Harris's approval ratings have surpassed Biden's in several polls since she became the presumptive nominee. For example, one poll in October 2024 found 45% of U.S. adults approved of Harris, compared to 39% for Biden.
  • Support within the Parties: While both candidates face criticism, Harris has energized the Democratic base and garnered stronger support within the party compared to Biden.
  • Views on the Presidential Race: Harris has narrowed the gap against Trump in the 2024 presidential race. She has even led Trump in some polls, indicating a shift in the perceived viability of the Democratic ticket.
Important Considerations:
  • Polling Data: Keep in mind that polls represent a snapshot in time and can fluctuate.
  • Factors Influencing Views: A variety of factors, such as policy positions, handling of current events, and overall public perception, influence these views.
  • Limited Impact of VP Role: As Vice President, Harris's ability to directly influence policy and public perception is limited compared to the President's.

Considering Biden's loss of Democratic voters:
In the 2024 election, Kamala Harris did lose support among some Democratic voters, although the picture is complex.
Key Findings:
  • Overall Decline in Democratic Support: Analysts suggest that Democrats saw a decline in support across various demographics in the 2024 election.
  • Vote-Switching and Turnout: The loss was a result of both lower Democratic turnout and some voters switching their support to the Republican candidate, Donald Trump.
  • Losses in Key Democratic Groups:Harris underperformed compared to the previous Democratic candidate (Joe Biden) in 2020 among core Democratic constituencies like Black and Latino voters.
    • Specifically, Harris lost ground with Latino men (-12%), Black men (-7%), and men overall (-6%) compared to Biden in 2020.
    • She also saw a decrease in support from young voters, particularly Latino and AAPI youth.
  • Support Among Democrats Remained Strong: Despite the losses, Harris's approval rating among Democrats remained very high. In October 2024, a Gallup poll showed that 94% of Democrats approved of the way she was handling her job.
  • Increase in Support in Some States: It's worth noting that Harris actually saw an increase in Democratic vote totals in states like Georgia, Nevada, North Carolina, and Wisconsin, indicating a nuanced situation.

So basically she lost some of the black/latino man vote. It's hard to deny that some misogyny affected the voter turn out. How does a woman regain that vote?

I also think the overwhelming anti-trans advertising by the Trump Campaign and PACs had a huge effect on the vote.

Also see the above post about the ignorati vote increasing a lot.
 
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This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted.
That's a natural reaction, though that feeling can be a springboard for actually learning about the issues at hand. If you let it.

I find your remark somewhat ambiguous. Do you or do you not support removing Abraham Lincoln's name from schools to cease honoring his racism?
That's up to the school board, I would imagine.

But I don't think there's any harm in learning about why his legacy is considered complicated for some.

View attachment 50989
Yeah, I have no problem discussing that Lincoln had some issues with his ethics, and I think that should be taught right alongside the things he accomplished.

I'm a little sad the right thing was a matter of political expediency for him, and sadder still that he made such dark decisions as he did.

I think that should be known.

If I had gotten to learn the dark history of my own nation, perhaps I would have cared more about history classes.
Everybody has some issues with their ethics. Lincoln wasn't perfect but compared to our founders he had outstanding ethics. I've read a lot about him. He always wanted slavery to end from the time he was a kid, although he was a bit timid at times in pushing it's end and he was conflicted as how to do it.

He believed that Black folks should go back to Africa after the Civil War, until Frederick Douglas convinced him that they were part of the US and they wanted to stay. He had a good relationship the Frederick Douglas and he listened to him and respected him.

Nobody, not one single human is perfect, but compared to most politicians Lincoln did a lot of good things for the country. I can understand why someone might want to take the names of the founders off of a school, although despite their negative side, they also accomplished some good things, but it's hard for me to blame Lincoln for not being perfect. Who knows when slavery would have ended if it were not for Lincoln?

Patients I used to care for always praised FDR. Sure, he did lots of good things, but he also put innocent Japanese citizens into internment camps, so no leader is perfect and if you're waiting for the perfect candidate, have I got news for you...there isn't one and there never will be one, so embrace the better one or the least harmful one.

I don't like Bernie, but if he had been the candidate I would have voted for him and so would my friends who also don't care for him. It's not his policies but the way he attacks others in the Dem party and only says he's a Dem when he runs for president. I've read a lot about him and he can be a real jerk too. He also said we need to let the younger generation take over, yet he just announced he is running for another term in the Senate. I think he's about 84 now. We sure do need term limits.

And, I also wish we would stop condemning each other when we are all victims or benefactors of our genetics and environmental influences. Why do some of you obsess over trans folks, a tiny, harmless minority? Who cares if a few participate in sports when we're talking about such a tiny number? I don't fear the occasional trans female who might use the women's room. I don't even notice who is in the stall next to me. Why not be more concerned about those who are racists, sexists and homophobes? We may not be able to change them, but we can at least set examples as how we are stronger when we embrace diversity. Trump is a danger to our country, but even he can't help that he is a psychopath, which is believed to be a disease of the frontal cortex. He needs to be removed, but we must convince everyone to vote in the midterms to take away the power from his cult in Congress. What good does it do to rant and rave here and attack each other? I don't get. it. I've said enough, or more than enough. :unsure:
 
Indeed, who is even the "victim" of a historic critique? I know you do not believe in an afterlife, so what is the harm of asking whether Washington was right to order the genocide of the Iroquois, or to faithlessly promise the abolition of his human property even as he profited from their labor? To whom is harm done when one asks? He has been dead these eleven score years, as have been most of his victims for around the same time, and were he alive I think he would welcome the critique, unless I misjudge the man entirely. Lincoln's crimes were less severe, but I think both men were agreed on this: They never asked to be deified or reified. They never described themselves as perfect or above reproach. They were good Protestants. humble before God and polite to men. They would obviously not approve of the political cults that sprang up around their careers, or the massive temples that have since been built for them in the Capital city. But because they are dead, they cannot speak. So others make stone gods of them, and forget their true legacies.

Someone once asked Lincoln for a brief biological sketch, for an upcoming news article. He replied: "“There is not much of it, for the reason, I suppose, that there is not much of me. If anything be made out of it, I wish to be modest, and not go beyond the material.” He then proceeded to offer the briefest of resumes, focusing on points of fact as suits the mindset of a lawyer. Does that sound like a man whose ego demands that thousands of schools, prisons, shopping malls, and highway bypasses be named after him? I think not.

This is getting a bit off topic, but then, if the topic is how Democrats came to drift ever more sympathetic toward fascist policies like the Patriot Act, even as their politics seemed to grow more and more Progressive on a very superficial level of endless "signalling" and statements made on this and that "culture war", I don't think the new cult of Invictus Sol that venerates and "protects" the memory of dead presidents is on an entirely separate wavelength from the public's increasing tolerance for an fundamentally unsafe concentration of legal and administrative power in the White House.

jefferson rushmore.webp

You know, England and Spain and Norway, have actual Kings and Queens. Throughout most of their national history, their monarchs were held to be representatives of a Divine Will that ordered all human activity according to the principles of Nature and Faith that had guided Christendom since empire was converted by a miraculous act to the path of eternal salvation. Important people, those Kings and Queens!

Yet none of these ever required, nor permitted, posthumous veneration of their royal bodies in the way that Americans do for their past presidents. You'll find plenty of normal, human-sized royal statues around Europe, perhaps double-height here or there (looking at you, Weymouth...), but no megalithic constructions like Mt Rushmore or the Lincoln Memorial (at which Lincoln is seated in the exact same posture as was Zeus in antiquity, with his hands placed over the arm of a throne engraved with the fasces, or staff of Roman authority, the very symbol from which the word "fascism" is derived). Have you ever wondered why? Why, in a nation that is supposedly democratic, we honor our presidents very explicitly the way the Greeks and Egyptians and Romans honored their gods, right down to copying some of their ancient temples brick for brick? There is a danger in such hero worship. A very real and concrete, sometimes marble, often gilded, danger.

I wonder why Trump thought it reasonable to demand a Triumph for himself at the Capitol?
 
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And, I also wish we would stop condemning each other when we are all victims or benefactors of our genetics and environmental influences
Dude, this forum literally watched me argue for a year and a half against a brick wall that it does not matter where we came from, it matters who we are and what environmental influences we seek after the common environmental influence of our education.

The thing that gets me to relent in this judgement is positive response to judgement for current behavior.

I have been rendering judgement for current behavior for decades.

No positive response has yielded.

I know other parts of the world are as I would see people respond so I know it's not a problem with them being "human"; it's got to be something else, some corruption imparted by culture, sure, but a corruption nonetheless.

And yes, I'm going to judge this corruption as something to be turned. The question is whether people are willing to look at it, see it, describe it as it is, and respond to it accordingly. Other people with more cultural awareness, maybe they have more hope than we do.

Maybe after we grow a cultural awareness, we'll know the warning signs for next time. I only hope we have the chuzpa to do what it takes to respond properly to it next time.
 
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