Dem Post Mortem

[Derec]

Joe Crowley would be one person.

That's called "an example".

How many moderates were primaried?

There are several progressive groups like Justice Democrats and Brand New Congress that are/were dedicated to primarying moderate Dems and replacing them with progressives. Lpetrich (I have not seen any posts by him lately btw.) made several megathreads about this topic.
Democrats trying to unseat each other
Democrats trying to unseat each other II
Democrats trying to unseat each other III
Democrats trying to unseat each other IV
Some challenges were successful, others weren't, but there have been many of them. And they are ongoing.
Example: Rep. Shri Thanedar draws a Democratic primary challenge as the left seeks to flex its muscle in Michigan

And then you have places like Ohio, where there might be two strong liberals seats and the Democrats are pushing moderates of moderates to get the R +2 reddish hue purple districts.

Yes. Purging moderates to put in fauxgressives only works in D + [double digits] districts like NY14.

Did they? This transgender thing is the most molehill controversy.

I agree that it is not an important issue in the grand scheme of things. But it is also a very emotionally charged one, as it goes to the issues of identity, speech codes and fairness for female athletes.

The right-wing has been screaming about it for years now. Inclusion for transgender athletes is a difficult problem to manage.

And I do not understand why Dems have taken up the activists' positions wholesale, giving a potent issue to Republicans.
And when a Democrat dares veer from the Party line, he gets this treatment:

Representative Seth Moulton, Democrat of Massachusetts, is facing a barrage of criticism and protest in his deep-blue state for suggesting that his party’s struggles in this month’s election could be traced to its support for allowing transgender girls to play in girls’ sports.
Mr. Moulton’s campaign manager resigned in protest. The Democratic governor of Massachusetts rebuked him. And the chair of the political science department at Tufts University threatened to block his students from interning in Mr. Moulton’s office.
A rally has been scheduled for Sunday in Salem, Mass., Mr. Moulton’s hometown, aimed at standing with the transgender community, said Kyle Davis, a Democrat and a Salem city councilor who has called on the congressman to resign.

The Democrat Picking a Fight With His Party Over Transgender Rights
Certainly, we should be able to openly debate trans issues, as we do all others.

Transgender issues are not that high on the DNC platform. They support civil rights for them, but the right-wing has done a brilliant job on some people, to convince them it is a plague and the Democrats are supporting it.

As I have shown with the case of Seth Moulton, the Dems bear some responsibility for shutting down debate on these issues in their own party.

Not really. If anything, the Democrats position is 'hold the line' at the moment, regarding judicially established rights. Also, with a GOP that is completely unhinged, it doesn't particularly make it easy to go on the offensive using principles and policy.

But Dems did go on the offensive. They elected Democratic Socialists to Congress. They pulled the Biden administration significantly to the left.

Progressives, liberals. "Far-left" are radicals. I don't need to agree with everything they say in order for them to not be radicals.

By far-left, I mean that they are significantly to the left of the mainstream, including the Democatic mainstream.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Joe Crowley would be one person.

That's called "an example".

No, it is called insufficient evidence for a claim.

How many moderates were primaried?

There are several progressive groups like Justice Democrats and Brand New Congress that are/were dedicated to primarying moderate Dems and replacing them with progressives. Lpetrich (I have not seen any posts by him lately btw.) made several megathreads about this topic.
Democrats trying to unseat each other
Democrats trying to unseat each other II
Democrats trying to unseat each other III
Democrats trying to unseat each other IV
Some challenges were successful, others weren't, but there have been many of them. And they are ongoing.
Example: Rep. Shri Thanedar draws a Democratic primary challenge as the left seeks to flex its muscle in Michigan

So we still standing with the one example.

And then you have places like Ohio, where there might be two strong liberals seats and the Democrats are pushing moderates of moderates to get the R +2 reddish hue purple districts.

Yes. Purging moderates to put in fauxgressives only works in D + [double digits] districts like NY14.

You just get stuck in a groove. The point was moderates Democrats are winning elections too, so it isn't some sort of massive swing to the left.

Did they? This transgender thing is the most molehill controversy.

I agree that it is not an important issue in the grand scheme of things. But it is also a very emotionally charged one, as it goes to the issues of identity, speech codes and fairness for female athletes.

My point was, it wasn't even that high on priority levels for the Democrats. The Right-Wing started waging a war over it on their propaganda radio stations and cable "news".

Representative Seth Moulton, Democrat of Massachusetts, is facing a barrage of criticism and protest in his deep-blue state for suggesting that his party’s struggles in this month’s election could be traced to its support for allowing transgender girls to play in girls’ sports.
Mr. Moulton’s campaign manager resigned in protest. The Democratic governor of Massachusetts rebuked him. And the chair of the political science department at Tufts University threatened to block his students from interning in Mr. Moulton’s office.
A rally has been scheduled for Sunday in Salem, Mass., Mr. Moulton’s hometown, aimed at standing with the transgender community, said Kyle Davis, a Democrat and a Salem city councilor who has called on the congressman to resign.

The Democrat Picking a Fight With His Party Over Transgender Rights
Certainly, we should be able to openly debate trans issues, as we do all others.

I'd agree. The Democrats supporting trans rights was something the Republicans weaponized. You are in Georgia, you had to have seen all the ads that my eyes were exposed to living in Ohio with a Senate race and in a rare competitive US House seat.

People need to message things more clearly, however.

Transgender issues are not that high on the DNC platform. They support civil rights for them, but the right-wing has done a brilliant job on some people, to convince them it is a plague and the Democrats are supporting it.

As I have shown with the case of Seth Moulton, the Dems bear some responsibility for shutting down debate on these issues in their own party.

Not really. If anything, the Democrats position is 'hold the line' at the moment, regarding judicially established rights. Also, with a GOP that is completely unhinged, it doesn't particularly make it easy to go on the offensive using principles and policy.

But Dems did go on the offensive. They elected Democratic Socialists to Congress. They pulled the Biden administration significantly to the left.

And what does a Democratic Socialist support that is so damn awful? It isn't like Ocasio-Cortez is out there demanding privatization of the oil companies.

Jebus! The Trump movement is largely a Democratic Socialist movement, complaining about how jobs were outsourced out of the country and how we need to protect the blue collar working class.

Progressives, liberals. "Far-left" are radicals. I don't need to agree with everything they say in order for them to not be radicals.

By far-left, I mean that they are significantly to the left of the mainstream, including the Democatic mainstream.

That isn't was far-left means. If you want people to understand what you are saying, you should use the right words.

 

[Politesse]

When fascists are on the march and poised to take over the country, it's important not to commit the worst sin a person can think of: accusing anyone else of fascism.

Not worst sin, but more like poor priority management?

No, buddy. Poor priority management is when the Democratic leadership is attacking its own voters for alleged disloyalty and its own junior senators and representatives for being "too radical", instead of focusing on what really matters: the successful ascendancy of a fascist juggernaut from within the fractured corpse of the Republican Party. Our country is setting up overseas concentration camps for the punishment of Donald John Trump's political enemies, and the Marines are being ordered to march against American citizens who speak out against him. To look at all that, and think that our priority right now needs to be on helping JK Rowling shush trans people? Instead of where that focus obviously belongs, that is, on countering the President and his Alt-Right handlers on every single front they choose to open? That's insane. Utterly insane. You should love queers and Mexicans and solar panels and trains and sushi and autonomous collectives and midrise housing blocks and electric stoves, for no other reason than that Trump wants to make them all go away, and you should want to deny him the pleasure. He'll come for all of in the end, but he does not have numbers on his side yet, so he's trying the most ancient strategy in Western politics: divide and conquer. If you let him redirect your attention toward attacking fellow-victims instead of looking at what he is doing, he wins.

 

[Swammerdami]

Eighty years ago the following confession was published.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Expect confessions like the following in a few years.

First they came for the Republicans with integrity, and I did not speak out because nobody gives a shit about Republicans. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was busy protesting Suzie the trans-gendered not being allowed to play girl's basketball. Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out because Trump promised to cut my taxes. Then they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out because I was busy complaining that Hillary cheated Bernie nine years ago. Then they came for me—and it was too late.

 

[Politesse]

Eighty years ago the following confession was published.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Expect confessions like the following in a few years.

First they came for the Republicans with integrity, and I did not speak out because nobody gives a shit about Republicans. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was busy protesting Suzie the trans-gendered not being allowed to play girl's basketball. Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out because Trump promised to cut my taxes. Then they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out because I was busy complaining that Hillary cheated Bernie nine years ago. Then they came for me—and it was too late.

Yeah, I'm sure Niemoller was going "if only we'd attacked each other more instead of focusing so much on that Hitler guy!"

 

[TomC]

Eighty years ago the following confession was published.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Expect confessions like the following in a few years.

First they came for the Republicans with integrity, and I did not speak out because nobody gives a shit about Republicans. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was busy protesting Suzie the trans-gendered not being allowed to play girl's basketball. Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out because Trump promised to cut my taxes. Then they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out because I was busy complaining that Hillary cheated Bernie nine years ago. Then they came for me—and it was too late.

Yeah, I'm sure Niemoller was going "if only we'd attacked each other more instead of focusing so much on that Hitler guy!"

I think @Swammerdami is spot on.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Eighty years ago the following confession was published.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Expect confessions like the following in a few years.

First they came for the Republicans with integrity, and I did not speak out because nobody gives a shit about Republicans. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was busy protesting Suzie the trans-gendered not being allowed to play girl's basketball. Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out because Trump promised to cut my taxes. Then they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out because I was busy complaining that Hillary cheated Bernie nine years ago. Then they came for me—and it was too late.

Yeah, I'm sure Niemoller was going "if only we'd attacked each other more instead of focusing so much on that Hitler guy!"

I think @Swammerdami is spot on.
Tom

That repeating Trump talking points as as though they were his own is more important than opposing what Trump is doing? He's spot on, alright, doing exactly what the Project 2025 crowd was hoping the American public would do, get distracted by the cheerleaders while their team gets away with the ball.

What spending bill? What concentration camps? What mass embezzlement from city treasuries? We need to keep the focus where it really matters here: fairness in elementary school sporting matches.

 

[TomC]

That repeating Trump talking points as as though they were his own is more important than opposing what Trump is doing? He's spot on, alright, doing exactly what the Project 2025 crowd was hoping the American public would do, get distracted by the cheerleaders while their team gets away with the ball.

That is not what he did.
But yes, the Project 2025 crowd are winning because they can rally their base of extremists and the left centrists keep alienating their base. Largely by placating the leftist extremists.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

If "placating the leftist extremists" breaks your party to shreds, it deserves to fail. You can't expect democracy to trundle along fine with just a vague sense of preserving the status quo to defend it. There will be, and are, active attacks on American civil liberties. If the Democrats are more afraid of "looking extreme" than they are of losing those liberties, than they will succeed in looking bland as they lose their liberties. You can't just miss every town hall meeting and then wonder why no one did anything while the mayor walked away with the city treasury. We are the agents of our own democracy, not just the recipients of gifts handed down from Washington. Radicalism, in defense of liberty, is the patriotic responsibility of every citizen. Even when genuinely unpopular. But good leadership can also make unpopular ideas more popular.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That repeating Trump talking points as as though they were his own is more important than opposing what Trump is doing? He's spot on, alright, doing exactly what the Project 2025 crowd was hoping the American public would do, get distracted by the cheerleaders while their team gets away with the ball.

That is not what he did.
But yes, the Project 2025 crowd are winning because they can rally their base of extremists and the left centrists keep alienating their base. Largely by placating the leftist extremists.
Tom

Extremists? Is Jarhyn or Politesse just coming back in from a Green Peace operation, having sunk three Japanese whaling ships?

The Internet has done three things:

1) Made access to information the easiest it has ever been
2) Made access to misinformation the easiest it has ever been
3) Made people incapable of using appropriate adjectives

The funny thing is that Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.

 

[Politesse]

Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.

It's all down to where you get your news from, eh?

 

[TomC]

The funny thing is that Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.

Honestly, I have trouble figuring out what you mean in that whole post.
But this part I am extremely sure about. Jarhyn and Politesse are very similar to Derec and TSwizzle. They pretend that they are not extremists, but they are.

And extremists are what is destroying the USA, not any particular flavor of extremism.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The funny thing is that Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.

Honestly, I have trouble figuring out what you mean in that whole post.

That the internet has made people incapable of escaping hyperbole and are doomed to improper adjective usage, which makes communication an awful bear.

But this part I am extremely sure about. Jarhyn and Politesse are very similar to Derec and TSwizzle. They pretend that they are not extremists, but they are.

WHAT?!

Jarhyn and Politesse aren't extremists. I'd hardly even call they that far to the left. I disagree with tactics, but the policies they support aren't remotely wild. I'd gage Derec as maybe a higher brow 1970s southern Democrat. I have absolutely no idea what TSwizzle's actual personal beliefs are.

And extremists are what is destroying the USA, not any particular flavor of extremism.

It's alt-right populism right now, relentless right wing attacks on liberals in media for the last 40 years (I.E. listen to any AM radio right-wing host and replace the word 'liberal' with 'Jew', and you quickly get how bad they are), and escalating attacks against liberals by people in Government (from Ari Flescher's 'watch what people say' to hating America because we didn't support invading Iraq to Trump's 2nd Amendment solution on Hillary Clinton to the DoJ charging a House Representative).

The violence in LA isn't partisan, that is personal.

 

[Swammerdami]

(This seems to be a thread for condemning excessive wokeism.)

I stumbled on a brief clip of Bill Maher.

Five years ago Abraham Lincoln was not a controversial figure among liberals. We liked him. Now they take his name off schools and tear down his statues.

This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted. Google shows that in 2021 San Francisco did want to strip Washington and Lincoln (and Feinstein?) from school names, though it may have come to its senses.

Lincoln High School (named after President Abraham Lincoln, the ally of abolitionists and leader of the Union during the Civil War) is also set to be renamed, with the committee citing his response to the Sioux uprising as sufficient basis.

San Francisco has the reputation of being a hot-bed of wokeism , but Chicago?

 

[Jarhyn]

You can't expect democracy to trundle along fine with just a vague sense of preserving the status quo to defend it

Not true. This is called "conservatism" and as history has repeatedly shown, it creates a fertile garden for the growing of kings.

But people do expect it. That's rather the problem.

 

[thebeave]

(This seems to be a thread for condemning excessive wokeism.)

I stumbled on a brief clip of Bill Maher.

Five years ago Abraham Lincoln was not a controversial figure among liberals. We liked him. Now they take his name off schools and tear down his statues.

This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted. Google shows that in 2021 San Francisco did want to strip Washington and Lincoln (and Feinstein?) from school names, though it may have come to its senses.

Lincoln High School (named after President Abraham Lincoln, the ally of abolitionists and leader of the Union during the Civil War) is also set to be renamed, with the committee citing his response to the Sioux uprising as sufficient basis.

San Francisco has the reputation of being a hot-bed of wokeism , but Chicago?

Yep. We had a thread on this a few years ago, begun by yours truly. People seemed pretty annoyed by my use of the term "cancel".

SF School Board Cancels Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson...and Dianne Feinstein?

Chicago has a pretty woke mayor and city government. I'm not surprised at all they are going through the same gyrations as SF. In fact, I ask, "What took you so long?".

 

[Elixir]

Google shows that in 2021 San Francisco did want to strip Washington and Lincoln (and Feinstein?) from school names, though it may have come to its senses.

As San Francisco HS names go, those are kind of expendable. I went to a school in the same league for a year - Galileo.
When they start going after guys like him I’ll be pissed.

 

[thebeave]

Google shows that in 2021 San Francisco did want to strip Washington and Lincoln (and Feinstein?) from school names, though it may have come to its senses.

As San Francisco HS names go, those are kind of expendable. I went to a school in the same league for a year - Galileo.
When they start going after guys like him I’ll be pissed.

OJ Simpson went to that high school. Imagine if they would have changed the name to OJ Simpson High School. Goes to show you why its not really a good idea to name things after people who are still alive. You just never know...

 

[ZiprHead]

That repeating Trump talking points as as though they were his own is more important than opposing what Trump is doing? He's spot on, alright, doing exactly what the Project 2025 crowd was hoping the American public would do, get distracted by the cheerleaders while their team gets away with the ball.

That is not what he did.
But yes, the Project 2025 crowd are winning because they can rally their base of extremists and the left centrists keep alienating their base. Largely by placating the leftist extremists.
Tom

Extremists? Is Jarhyn or Politesse just coming back in from a Green Peace operation, having sunk three Japanese whaling ships?

The Internet has done three things:

1) Made access to information the easiest it has ever been
2) Made access to misinformation the easiest it has ever been
3) Made people incapable of using appropriate adjectives

The funny thing is that Derec is pretty damn certain Jarhyn and Politesse are the happiest they've ever been, as the Democrat Party has swung so far over to rally their support. And Jarhym and Politesse are pretty damn certain the Democrat Party hasn't.

I am absolutely certain it was the Trump campaign's 250 million dollar anti-trans advertising campaign that drove enough people away from voting for Harris. That and the almost toal lack of news coverage of her actual platform was enough to turn enough people away from her.

 

[Politesse]

This startled me, or rather it left me flabbergasted.

That's a natural reaction, though that feeling can be a springboard for actually learning about the issues at hand. If you let it.