The Case for Christianity

[ideologyhunter]

l

In a manner of speaking...God has left the building. No more direct Judgement or instant consequences as we see in the OT. Judgement is delayed untill Christ's returns i.e Judgement day!

Oh. That's the reason he no longer hangs out in the hood, as a bush or a cloud or a fire pillar.
I heard a much simpler explanation.

 

[steve_bank]

Always inertng to see how Christins seem to know what god thinks, even when it is not explicit in the holy babel.

'Knowing' what god wants is used to justify actions. Like slavery and cultural genocide of native peoples.

Abortion is a good example. Violence against doors and cliic

A bumper sticker in the past 'god hates fags'.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Exactly. They want it both ways, though. God is both inexplicable and beyond our mental powers to understand, so vast and complex that we are presumptuous when we pretend to analyze him, and yet they also will cite his motives, his aims, his personality. They can tell you what human actions he condemns. They can tell you what change to pray for, to enlist his help in matters where they seem to know his wishes. Then let something unimaginably horrible occur in the community -- a family, say, is wiped out in a house fire -- and suddenly 'his ways are mysterious', or the puke-worthy 'God must have needed a few more angels up in heaven.'

 

[aupmanyav]

It has often been suggested that science has proven that God does not exist.

The origin of the word "spirit" is spirare, which simply means to breathe. In other words, every thing that is alive is spirit. To rationally discuss this Nature, we cannot turn to science but to psychology, philosophy and religion.

Science has not done that, how can one prove the non-existence of things which do not exist.
There is no elephant in any cupboard, not just mine.
'Spirit' (soul) too is a non-existent thing. Nothing to discuss there.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

The bible tells us that God Himself is responsible for evil and suffering in the world, that God Himself creates the deaf, blind and crippled, including the wicked for the 'day of evil.'

That's just a metaphor.

(Sarcasm).

 

[bilby]

Exactly. They want it both ways, though. God is both inexplicable and beyond our mental powers to understand, so vast and complex that we are presumptuous when we pretend to analyze him, and yet they also will cite his motives, his aims, his personality. They can tell you what human actions he condemns. They can tell you what change to pray for, to enlist his help in matters where they seem to know his wishes. Then let something unimaginably horrible occur in the community -- a family, say, is wiped out in a house fire -- and suddenly 'his ways are mysterious', or the puke-worthy 'God must have needed a few more angels up in heaven.'

The difference is right there. WE cannot understand God, but THEY can, because THEY are special and important, while WE are extras; non-player characters; set dressing for the stage on which THEIR lives are played out.

The idea that people outside your immediate circle are real, fully actualised, complete human beings, with their own motives and desires - that are as complex, and as important, and as passionately held, as yours - it's a very hard idea to grasp.

Indeed, it may be impossible to truly grasp. Robin Dunbar's work with primate brain volumes strongly suggests that humans can only really believe in the existence of a hundred or so other people. Everyone else is scenery.

But knowing that, and using the knowledge to rein in our tendency to dismiss the "others" as worthless, is a powerful tool to use to make yourself a less hideous person.

One of the many big problems with religion is that it reinforces, rather than weakens, this idea that WE are special, while THEY are not.

To paraphrase Joe Stalin: "The death of one of us is a tragedy; The deaths of millions of them is a statistic".

 

[unapologetic]

Ummm. So far, I've based my arguments on the Bible, no?

The bible is just the claim, not evidence of anything.

Oh shit. there are 20 more pages since I was in this thread last. TLDR.

 

[bilby]

Ummm. So far, I've based my arguments on the Bible, no?

The bible is just the claim, not evidence of anything.

Oh shit. there are 20 more pages since I was in this thread last. TLDR.

Yeah, it's a bit much.

But @Brunswick1954 still hasn't given any reason why anyone should think basing an argument on the Bible is in any way an improvement over basing one on hearsay, or guesswork, or propaganda.

"Why would anyone care what the Bible says?" is one of the first things a serious case for Christianity would need to establish - yet we have heard nothing on this central question, other than this bizarre implication that everyone surely agrees that it is reasonable, and is happy to accept any such arguments.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Yeah. I picture him (her?) as personable and positive, well-spoken in general, easy to be neighbors with. But the theology is all warm fuzzies. This is someone who would adopt the local predominant faith of any global setting that was home. In other words, the standard model believer.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

To paraphrase Joe Stalin: "The death of one of us is a tragedy; The deaths of millions of them is a statistic".

As if I needed more evidence that atheists support COMMUNISM!

(Sarcasm).

 

[ideologyhunter]

To paraphrase Joe Stalin: "The death of one of us is a tragedy; The deaths of millions of them is a statistic".

As if I needed more evidence that atheists support COMMUNISM!

(Sarcasm).

No need to apologize. Ever since I went godless, I've been smitten with Marx's words, a vision of the good life: "They had all things in common, and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need...There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and it laid it at the leaders' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need."
See, when the age of private ownership and hoarding has been -- shit, wait a minute, that aint Marx. That's from the Book of Acts!!! Ugh!!! I'm not a Commie!! I'm not a Commie!!

 

[pood]

l

We have become "less warlike" in the last few centuries, you mean? Ok.

So we are still murderous and warlike. So where is God today to give us warnings, and step in and stop our fun? Just like he is for children with brain cancer — nowhere to be found.

I do agree, we are still murderous and warlike. There are some who think "we have been doing better these last few centuries". Nice. to see we don't always disagree.

Yeah so, the whole idea of Jesus to preach and teach is: how to live together in the harsh world. is 'by ourselves' (which is what many would wish for, no doubt). He preached about treating and loving each other, especially 'after he leaves us'.

In a manner of speaking...God has left the building. No more direct Judgement or instant consequences as we see in the OT. Judgement is delayed untill Christ's returns i.e Judgement day!

I see. So God has left the building.

So let’s recap: In the days of the OT, God was in the building, speaking directly to men, giving then orders and commandments, and then smiting them when they disobeyed. The all-loving god also frequently orders the death and destruction of others. Sometimes the all-powerful God is defeated, as by iron chariots.

Them God said, “Fuck it, I’m going to rape a virgin human and then produce my only begotten son, although my son is also really me. I then will have myself sacrificed to myself to plačte myself, and that is my final warning to. man. After that they either believe in a literal resurrection and a trip to a real heaven, or I’ll send then all to hell after they die no matter how good they were while alive.”

Then God left the house and has been doing whatever he does behind the pearly gates.

Well, that makes perfect sense! Now I’m a believer … a believer in the idea that this is the most idiotic story ever told.

 

[ideologyhunter]

l

Well, that makes perfect sense! Now I’m a believer … a believer in the idea that this is the most idiotic story ever told.

Also, what is holding up the Second Coming, the Rapture (where, I think, upwards of two billion Christians will flap naked up into the sky; I'm gonna bring a lawn chair and a couple of Snapples), and the big showdown between Jesus with his angels and the Freedom from Religion Foundation (which will produce a trough of blood 200 miles long and 5 feet deep, if you believe the psilocybin mirage in Rev. 14)? Seriously, why the delay? It's almost as if it was one big tease.

 

[steve_bank]

If you listen to Christian TV and radio as I do once in a while god has not left the building.

Many Christians make a name for themselves and develop a following by being essentially latter day Jewish prophets of the OT.

God does manifest and punishes according to them. Natural disasters are god's punishment for homosexuality has been a common one.

Eschatology I believe. Spinning current events like wars and natural disasters to fit ancient biblical passages. 'God said it would happen 2600 years ago and it did toady

The p[ope says his words are the word of god on contemporary events. 'God wants us/we/you to ...'.

Some Christian leaders have expressed views that natural disasters are a form of divine judgment or punishment, and some have linked these events to homosexuality or other behaviors they consider sinful
. For example,

Minister Kevin Swanson and Christian radio personality Rick Wiles suggested that Hurricane Harvey, which caused devastating flooding, was linked to Houston having a "very, very aggressively pro-homosexual mayor" and its "affinity for the sexual perversion movement".
Televangelist Pat Robertson also implied that God might send hurricanes and lightning bolts to Florida in retaliation for Disneyworld sponsoring a "Gay Days" weekend.

Oral Roberts was similar.

Graham was one of the most influential Christians in modern America.

Billy Graham addressed the relationship between God and natural disasters by acknowledging that God can use such events to speak to people and turn their hearts towards Him. While not necessarily caused by God, Graham emphasized that natural disasters occur within God's providence and can highlight the brevity of life and the need for faith. He also pointed out that such events can bring people together, especially within the church.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Two days after the 9/11 attacks, Jerry Falwell went on Pat Robertson's 700 Club broadcast and said:

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle; the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen'".
Pat concurred. The statement raised such a pitch of criticism that Falwell issued an apology and stated that the hijackers were the guilty parties. This was highly unusual in his career (which included a longterm anti-Clinton campaign in which he touted a video that claimed Bill Clinton had political enemies murdered in Arkansas. That was never retracted.)
Also, I don't see how Tinky Wink was left out of the list of secularizers.

 

[Brunswick1954]

What do you guys think of this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/s/JUYywpaG6I

 

[steve_bank]

What do you guys think of this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/s/JUYywpaG6I

Post a summary followed by what YOU think first. Then I'll tell you what I think.

 

[unapologetic]

"History" as a whole, is a story. A naritive of what happend. it gets inturperted/spun by the teller.
Tolstoy's wall of text says more about him than 'humanity'. Not humanity's intent or purpose.
"...and to fulfill the will of God he is ready to sacrifice..." Shows that he has swallowed the religious CULT dogma.

To sacrifice ones own individuality and family and social welfare for a 'god' delusion, is evil and destructive to family and society. And there are signs we are growing out of that phase.

 

[Learner]

l

Well, that makes perfect sense! Now I’m a believer … a believer in the idea that this is the most idiotic story ever told.

Also, what is holding up the Second Coming, the Rapture (where, I think, upwards of two billion Christians will flap naked up into the sky; I'm gonna bring a lawn chair and a couple of Snapples), and the big showdown between Jesus with his angels and the Freedom from Religion Foundation (which will produce a trough of blood 200 miles long and 5 feet deep, if you believe the psilocybin mirage in Rev. 14)? Seriously, why the delay? It's almost as if it was one big tease.

Responding in no particular order, choosing this post first, cos I am humoured by the humour.
(these days I only get to read and sometimes respond when I'm travelling on the train or sitting in a coffee place.)

Yeah so...the "hold up" is an "illusion", a misleading notion that depends on a particular contextual portrayal of language. Ive said this before:

No one waits 2000 years or more!

If you can entertain the idea in concept which is quite simple:

Once you die ...then it's judgement. IOW, if someone died at the age of 20 then he only waited 20 years. He may have rested for a thousand years outside his conscious awareness, but once he closed his eyes at death, he opens them again.. instantly like a blink of an eye.
So now you believe, ideologyhunter?

Perhaps not.

 

[pood]

What do you guys think of this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/s/JUYywpaG6I

… in the tribe, the clan, the family, the kingdom, the government … and of course finally in the divine. And man sacrifices himself to all of this.

Yes, Tolstoy has got it exactly backwards. All those things — especially the divine — are the problem, not the solution. All those things lead not to the brotherhood of man, but actually pit man against man like scorpions in a bottle. Observe the Middle East — two hierarchal, statist societies powerfully backed by ancient religious mythologies with the same Abrahamic roots, in the process of tearing each other to pieces. There you can observe the precise actual result of what Tolstoy advocates.

For another powerful rebuttal of Tolstoy, see The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. Search for “You. The world.” and read down at least through to, “We don’t want any thinking men.”

Or read Krishnamurti. The tribe, the clan, the family, the kingdom, the government, the divine … all conditioning. Conditioning that leads to destruction of the self and the world. “Be a light unto yourself.”

Or read Henry MIller: “I a citizen of the world.”

Or read the words of Father Zosima in The Brothers Karamazov, who basically said that to the extent you change yourself, you change the world.

Or read Thoreau.

All very different writers and thinkers, yet taking circuitous routes to converge on roughly the same insight.