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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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I think the west has a duty to help Iranians kick the Ayatollah out of Iran. The only reason he's in power at all is because excessive and heavy handed meddling by greedy Brittain and USA. Just so they could get their hands on Iranian oil for cheap. One of the many shameful chapters of Western imperialism.

But of course... it's only tiny little Israel actually doing anything about it. Not a western country. Go go Israel.
 
Netanyahu’s message to the brave Iranian people, that Israel’s fight isn’t with them, but with the brutal dictatorship that rules them, is the kind of rhetoric I can actually stand behind. We can debate whether his approach will work, but it’s a far cry from the lazy 'because Hamas' logic I see so often thrown around to justify anything and everything around these parts.



But Israel is shooting rockens at Iran? How are you cool about that and not the invasion of Gaza? You're contradicting yourself


I'm not contradicting myself, you’re just arguing with a caricature of me you’ve built in your head. How about you keep that fantasy Gospel to yourself and stop broadcasting your fetish to the public? You pseudofiles are sure weird.
 
They don't need to. We know the context. I'm just spelling it out.

The IDF are explicitly at war with Hamas. Not all Palestinians. They consider the death of Palestinian civilians regretable. Which should be obvious when they acknowledge doing it. If they were at war with all Palestinians, they would hardly care who they kill, right?

You’re not helping the IDF with this “all Palestinians deserve to die because of Hamas” rhetoric. They're already facing international backlash and accusations from people who genuinely despise them, and voices like yours only make it worse. No matter how strong your convictions are, you’re not offering support, you’re handing extremist groups like Hamas propaganda on a silver platter. They can point to your words and say, “See? This is what they really think of us. Your posts would make perfect propaganda for Hamas.
 
Perhaps before 7/10. But certainly not now. Thinking that there is another workable option is just fantasy. The sooner Hamas is gone, the fewer casualties long term.

You say, 'The sooner Hamas is gone, the fewer casualties long-term,' as if I haven’t already said, countless times, that Hamas needs to be eradicated. At this point, I think it’s fair to ask if you even know how to read. The only real difference between us is that you don’t seem to have a line in the sand for how many Palestinian deaths are too many in exchange for eliminating Hamas, because you don't value their lives at all. I’ll ask again, do the people working on your project know this about you? And if they did, would they still choose to be involved?

Its the opposite. Hamas needs to be removed to protect the lives of both Israelis and Gazans.

You're basically arguing for that we shouldn't have removed Hitler because it would have hurt the German people. It's a rediculous stance. You're tying your back preventing us from defending what's right.

I think its you who don't value any lives.

I'm angry over all the dead Palestinians. But my anger is directed towards Hamas. Not Israel.

A better question to ask is how many more needs to die before you think Hamas needs to go? Clearly you are cool about the 7/10 attack. I'm not.

The 7/10 attack was the line in the sand. Hamas clearly thinks Palestinian lives are expendable. That makes me think its more important to remove them. Not less

Yup, you can't read.
 
I think the west has a duty to help Iranians kick the Ayatollah out of Iran. The only reason he's in power at all is because excessive and heavy handed meddling by greedy Brittain and USA. Just so they could get their hands on Iranian oil for cheap. One of the many shameful chapters of Western imperialism.

But of course... it's only tiny little Israel actually doing anything about it. Not a western country. Go go Israel.
The Iranians almost certainly don't want help from The West to change their country. There is way too much baggage. Man, Israel can't get rid of Hamas in Gaza with bombs and military... and Gaza is right next to them. Israel has no chance of enforcing much change in Iran with Iraq between them and Iran.

I'm also somewhat surprised with how immediate an attack against Iran's nuclear weapons program is needed now according to some here. I didn't recall that being raised 12 months ago. But Netanyahu wants to do it, and now people are in line, certain that it is the only course of action.
 
Netanyahu appears to be actively pursuing regime change in Iran, a goal that’s a far cry from Dr. Zoidberg’s fantasy of wiping out an entire population in the name of self-defense. Whether this legally and strategically questionable approach will succeed is up for debate.

The risk of creating a power vacuum shouldn’t be underestimated. We’ve already seen the consequences of that in Iraq, and Iran’s influence in the region is far broader. If the current regime were toppled without a viable and stable replacement, the resulting chaos could be far worse. One of my many questions is: what would an Iran-sized power vacuum look like, and who’s prepared to deal with it?
 
Netanyahu appears to be actively pursuing regime change in Iran, a goal that’s a far cry from Dr. Zoidberg’s fantasy of wiping out an entire population in the name of self-defense. Whether this legally and strategically questionable approach will succeed is up for debate.
A US backed military incursion would likely not lead to regime change. An Israeli backed one?! I'm all for the fall of that theocracy, but I just don't see how in the world this can happen from out of the blue. And it isn't like Israel has unlimited defenses. Probably one reason we are moving resources into the area. The Golden Dome isn't meant for continuous use.
The risk of creating a power vacuum shouldn’t be underestimated. We’ve already seen the consequences of that in Iraq, and Iran’s influence in the region is far broader. If the current regime were toppled without a viable and stable replacement, the resulting chaos could be far worse. One of my many questions is: what would an Iran-sized power vacuum look like, and who’s prepared to deal with it?
I would presume the Revolutionary Guard would be the big issue. We effectively bought off Egypt's military. We'd need to do likewise, but I have no idea whether they'd buy into that, or how low in the pecking order you'd need to go to there. And then the people have to buy into it. The Shah's grandchild is out there talking for regime change. Yeah... the Iranians not going for that. This is why an organic Iranian backed overthrow works much better as there are already going to be pieces to fill in the vacuum.
 
The genocide expands its scope.
Very few would support a nuclear strike in Iran. The "Genocide" is not expanding. If anything, it is more taking action against the main supporter of Hamas. Stopping Hamas requires Iran stopping their funding of it.
 
How about this U.S. policy with respect to Iran: that we MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS?

The Iranian regime is repugnant — but that is for the Iranian people to deal with, not us OR Israel. Thinking we are offering “outside help” to “liberate the Iranian people” ALWAYS backfires in the post World War II world. It backfired in Vietnam, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Libya. When you bomb a people and tell them, as Netanyahu is doing, that we trying to help you cast off your evil government, it has the opposite effect; a rally-round-the-flag effect that will probably only increase, not decrease, Iranian support for their government.

And finally, of course, the Israeli attack on Iran is illegal under international law, and would also be illegal for the U.S. to join it — not to mention unconstitutional absent a declaration of war by Congress.
 
Just so they could get their hands on Iranian oil for cheap. One of the many shameful chapters of Western imperialism.

What is your plan this time around to stop Donald Trump and other oligarchs from doing the same thing all over again? Other than by proclaiming that "the west" has a "duty" to intervene in a theocracy, which sounds good but isn't the reality of the true decision-makers?
 
Israel is again doing the free world's dirty work. It seems, more and more, to be the only democratic country with any balls left

That is entirely baseless. How far back did Stuxnet set Iran? What is happening that we don't ever hear about?

And finally, toppling the Theocratic government in Iran (the key goal) is something the Iranians have to do. We can help shift and nudge, provide support without being noticed as providing support, but the Iranian people need to do it.

I think you misunderstand the immediate threat Israel is under. Israel isn't trying to push for a regime change in Iran. They are trying to survive until tomorrow
Nah. The threat isn't going to show up that quickly. But smashing it now is probably the last chance they'll have to keep Iran from getting a bomb in the near future. And if Iran gets a bomb they'll probably use it.
Iran has been "close to having the bomb" since the 1980's. If the war pigs were correct, then Iran would certainly have had the bomb by now.
 
From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.
From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom
Please make that make logical sense in some way.
Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom
Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

How is it Israels problem that Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as human shields? Its Hamas responsibility to give Palestinian civilians a chance to avoid slaughter

A friend posed a philosophical conundrum. A guy rapes your mom. Holds up four babies and threatens to kill them if you retaliate. Its not your babies. Why wouldn't you retaliate? How are you guilty if the babies get hurt?
Some time back I posted a cartoon of a Hamas fighter with a baby in their plate carrier. No realistic responses.
 
Israel is again doing the free world's dirty work. It seems, more and more, to be the only democratic country with any balls left

That is entirely baseless. How far back did Stuxnet set Iran? What is happening that we don't ever hear about?

And finally, toppling the Theocratic government in Iran (the key goal) is something the Iranians have to do. We can help shift and nudge, provide support without being noticed as providing support, but the Iranian people need to do it.

I think you misunderstand the immediate threat Israel is under. Israel isn't trying to push for a regime change in Iran. They are trying to survive until tomorrow
Nah. The threat isn't going to show up that quickly. But smashing it now is probably the last chance they'll have to keep Iran from getting a bomb in the near future. And if Iran gets a bomb they'll probably use it.
Iran has been "close to having the bomb" since the 1980's. If the war pigs were correct, then Iran would certainly have had the bomb by now.

Right and of course we went to an insanely destructive war in Iraq because Saddam was close to having WMDs. :rolleyes:

And of course Trump ran criticizing that war. Now here the manbaby is, proposing to get us involved in another endless quagmire. But that is because he is a clueless manbaby. If Khameni had flattered him and sucked up to him he’d probably support the Iranian government.
 
Iraq was a success. We removed Saddam. Is Iraq a mess now? Yes. But at least Saddam is not in power. Iraq is no longer a tool of evil. I'd say that's a huge success.
Disagree. Iraq was a failure. We removed one evil but then let another take root.

I agree that the Bush-Cheney adventure in Iraq was a colossal failure, but would reason quite differently.

Saddam Hussein was a dreadfully evil person; getting rid of him was a worthy goal. But he was ready to go. The US was putting so much pressure on Iraq that Saddam could have been forced into exile or overthrown by other Baathists. Bush-Cheney may have rushed their invasion to ensure that such a solution did not arise: They wanted to exercise their military and perhaps even satisfy their blood lust.

Instead of a relatively benign outcome, even if it left a Baathist regime in power, Bush-Cheney wasted tens of thousands of lives, trillions of dollars of treasure, made millions of Iraqis homeless, stirred up hornets' nests in the Middle East, and diverted attention from Afghanistan (a conflict where a good outcome was then still possible).

The sheer stupidity of the Iraq War (2003-2011) and the deliberate and criminal lies needed to win partial approval from the Senate was an epic tragedy.
 
This has shades of Iraq in the sense of The Intelligence community is saying it isn't a thing, and the Administration is generally saying otherwise. But in this case, it is only Trump and Vance (and the typical Warhawks in the GOP), as the DNI said it was well out there back in March.

Huckabee is out there saying Trump is literally doing God's will:
article said:
Instead, Trump has suggested that he might look elsewhere for guidance. This morning he posted a lengthy text he’d received from U.S. Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee, who said that God had spared Trump from last summer’s assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania, so he could become the “most consequential President in a century—maybe ever.” Huckabee wrote that no president in his lifetime “has been in a position like yours. Not since Truman in 1945,” an apparent reference to Harry Truman’s decision to drop a pair of atomic bombs on Japan to end World War II.

“You did not seek this moment,” Huckabee wrote. “This moment sought YOU!”
JFC!

Netanyahu is blazing new trails here. Trump is the most manipulatable idiot to ever sit in the White House. We are hearing talks about an imminent US strike on Iran over a nuclear program he took America out of monitoring in his first Administration. But now the nuclear program is the most dire threat in Israeli history that it is overflowing onto the US, who has the tech to maybe disrupt it. Obama and Israel did the most destruction without dropping a bomb. Now bombs and missiles are plodding about with mixed results. We don't want the US involved if it will cause consequences with no benefits. If Iran isn't that close to a bomb, there is no need to add risk to America (and Israel). Trump is once again looking to squander American diplomatic credibility and capital.

The largest threat is that if the US gets involved, Iran doubles down on Israel with Chinese supplied rockets. Israel can't repel indefinitely.

So as usual with military force, what are the ACTUAL benefits verses what are the ACTUAL risks.
 
Israel is again doing the free world's dirty work. It seems, more and more, to be the only democratic country with any balls left

That is entirely baseless. How far back did Stuxnet set Iran? What is happening that we don't ever hear about?

And finally, toppling the Theocratic government in Iran (the key goal) is something the Iranians have to do. We can help shift and nudge, provide support without being noticed as providing support, but the Iranian people need to do it.

I think you misunderstand the immediate threat Israel is under. Israel isn't trying to push for a regime change in Iran. They are trying to survive until tomorrow
Nah. The threat isn't going to show up that quickly. But smashing it now is probably the last chance they'll have to keep Iran from getting a bomb in the near future. And if Iran gets a bomb they'll probably use it.
Iran has been "close to having the bomb" since the 1980's. If the war pigs were correct, then Iran would certainly have had the bomb by now.
Right and of course we went to an insanely destructive war in Iraq because Saddam was close to having WMDs. :rolleyes:
Not "clsoe to having", but rather "had". Of which, there was no evidence he had anything... that wasn't past the expiration date. The evidence wasn't there, just a vendetta, wishful thinking, and a misunderstanding as to why Hussein would want to project having them at all.
And of course Trump ran criticizing that war. Now here the manbaby is, proposing to get us involved in another endless quagmire.
The difference with Iran is, there is no invasion, so it wouldn't be a quagmire, as the shooting can just stop with a ceasefire. But if the US gets involved, China might get involved (I don't think Russia has much to offer at a distance) and supply Iran. We don't want that.
But that is because he is a clueless manbaby. If Khameni had flattered him and sucked up to him he’d probably support the Iranian government.
Yes, we saw how Trump dealt with Kim Jong Un. Trump is so stupid.
 
Iraq was a success. We removed Saddam. Is Iraq a mess now? Yes. But at least Saddam is not in power. Iraq is no longer a tool of evil. I'd say that's a huge success.
Disagree. Iraq was a failure. We removed one evil but then let another take root.

I agree that the Bush-Cheney adventure in Iraq was a colossal failure, but would reason quite differently.

Saddam Hussein was a dreadfully evil person; getting rid of him was a worthy goal. But he was ready to go. The US was putting so much pressure on Iraq that Saddam could have been forced into exile or overthrown by other Baathists. Bush-Cheney may have rushed their invasion to ensure that such a solution did not arise: They wanted to exercise their military and perhaps even satisfy their blood lust.

Instead of a relatively benign outcome, even if it left a Baathist regime in power, Bush-Cheney wasted tens of thousands of lives, trillions of dollars of treasure,
In 40 years, the Iraq War will have cost "quadrillions". The actual cost was in the several hundreds of billions. It never reached a trillion.
 
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