Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Gospel]

Right now, one of two things is happening: DrZoidberg is either digging through my post history to find evidence of this fantasy he keeps ranting about, or digging up his ass to pull out more bullshit. Either way, we get a brief moment of peace without his nonsense cluttering the conversation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You’re not here to defend life. You’re here to get off on power. You're turned on by domination, whether it's in a bedroom with ropes or through bombs on a population you’ll never meet. You treat both with the same emotional distance, cold, calculated, and performative. With an added twist of sick fuckery when speaking about children.

That wasn’t much of a defense speech. Is it a secret why you want Hamas to stay in power?

You don’t care who’s in power. You just want the suffering to continue long enough to get off. Hamas, Israel, doesn’t matter. As long as the kids are dying on schedule.

You have it backwards. You want nothing done to prevent Hamas from committing atrocity after atrocity.

[Argh, I didn't mean processed pigs were committing atrocities!]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Many on here claim that Hamas' actions are due to Israel's actions. Let's reframe that a bit: rape is due to women being immodest. (The Israeli action that's behind everything: existence.)

You have been reminded over and over and over again of oppressions that Palestinians have endured for decades. To remind you of just the most clear-cut example, there are a million Israelis illegally(*) settled in the West Bank at considerable loss to the Palestinians they have displaced. These settlements were NOT for Israel's security. Many of the settlers occupied the stolen land NOT because "God gave the land to" them but because the Israel government subsidized the settlements.

Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

* - To state the obvious for Mr. Pechtel's benefit, in this context "illegal" obviously refers to International Law, and not to the hypocrisies of the criminal Tel Aviv regime.

The Muslim world has done a very through job of repressing the Palestinians, and a very through job of making it look like Israel is the responsible party.

As for the kicking out part--you have been repeatedly reminded that that basically didn't happen. Most of the departures were of their own free will before the fighting started. The Arab nations encouraged them to get out of the way of the coming war, they listened. Oops, the war didn't go as expected. And they wouldn't swear to be peaceful if they returned, thus they were not allowed to return.

And, once again, you bring up the settlements. I've already said I don't like them, but that they are a red herring. The war traces back to 1948, unless the Palestinians have a time machine the settlements have nothing to do with that.

 

[TomC]

As for the kicking out part--you have been repeatedly reminded that that basically didn't happen. Most of the departures were of their own free will before the fighting started. The Arab nations encouraged them to get out of the way of the coming war, they listened. Oops, the war didn't go as expected. And they wouldn't swear to be peaceful if they returned, thus they were not allowed to return.

Here's another point commonly overlooked.
There are nearly as many Israeli Muslims as there are Gazans. Israel has over 10 million citizens and almost 20% are Muslim.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Of course I won't tell them my opinions. It'd be like lecturing a woman on how tampons work.

Yup, It's official. You're a certified pussy.

Ha ha. If the choices are tactless buffoon, or pussy, I'll go with pussy

So far we've only had online meetings. The Israelis and Palestinians of the project do not discuss politics in the meetings. Instead they just show a lot of concern for eachother. Its like they feel they're on the same side. Humanity.

If they can do it... so can you

Why don’t you model showing lots of concern for Israelis and Palestinians, so the rest of us may understand what you mean.

 

[laughing dog]

If your priority isn't getting rid of Hamas

If your priority is to ignore EVERY FUCKING TIME I SAY HAMAS NEEDS TO GO THEN YOU NEED TO JUST STFU AND ADMIT YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT I SAY AND WOULD RATHER KEEP PARROTING BULLSHIT.

Yes. And then in the next breath criticise Israel for doing something about it.

Why wouldn't I think you’re just talking shit?

When organisations like Hamas runs countries, then it gets messy. Insert any tinpot dictator. Its sucks for the population.

Why the Palestinian casualties are so high is because Hamas has been planning for this all the time. Its the same deal in Lebanon. Hezbollah military headquarters are under hospitals. This is how they operate.

Hamas did take a long time to plan their terrorist atrocities. They might have expected Israel’s response, but it was not possible for them to plan it unless they have moles in the IDF.

Instead of being horrified.. at Hamas... for the high casualties you are angry at Israel. That's fucked up imho

It is a possible normal reaction of horror at Hamas’s attack AND horror at Israel’s response. In fact, it is fucked up to think otherwise.

 

[Gospel]

You’re not here to defend life. You’re here to get off on power. You're turned on by domination, whether it's in a bedroom with ropes or through bombs on a population you’ll never meet. You treat both with the same emotional distance, cold, calculated, and performative. With an added twist of sick fuckery when speaking about children.

That wasn’t much of a defense speech. Is it a secret why you want Hamas to stay in power?

You don’t care who’s in power. You just want the suffering to continue long enough to get off. Hamas, Israel, doesn’t matter. As long as the kids are dying on schedule.

You have it backwards. You want nothing done to prevent Hams from committing atrocity after atrocity.

I don’t support Hamas, never have, never will. Not explicitly, not implicitly. So let’s stop pretending this manufactured narrative is anything but a deliberate misrepresentation meant to provoke. Mission accomplished, you got a reaction. But it doesn’t make the claim any less false, and it doesn’t make your tactic any less transparent.

 

[Gospel]

Instead of being horrified.. at Hamas... for the high casualties you are angry at Israel. That's fucked up imho

This is where you're completely mistaken. My arguments have been aimed squarely at your claims, not Israel. But every time you're called out on your nonsense, you hide behind Israel like a shield and start fabricating things about me just to provoke a reaction and get under my skin. It’s transparent, and it’s weak.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Of course I won't tell them my opinions. It'd be like lecturing a woman on how tampons work.

Yup, It's official. You're a certified pussy.

Ha ha. If the choices are tactless buffoon, or pussy, I'll go with pussy

So far we've only had online meetings. The Israelis and Palestinians of the project do not discuss politics in the meetings. Instead they just show a lot of concern for eachother. Its like they feel they're on the same side. Humanity.

If they can do it... so can you

Cut the disinformation, it’s not helping your case. I’ve been consistently on the side of humanity. What I haven’t done is stoop so low as to call a Holocaust survivor a mouthpiece for Hamas. That disgrace is yours alone.

I never said that. You just added that.

But Israel was founded by holocaust survivors. Everyone making military decisions have been directly affected by the holocaust in many ways. Usually every Israeli have holocaust survivors on every branch of their family trees. Because there are so many of them in Israel.

Did you forget that?

I think you're the only one of us spreading disinformation. I also think your behaviour is disgraceful.

There's too much suffering to be that blind to it, imho.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Instead of being horrified.. at Hamas... for the high casualties you are angry at Israel. That's fucked up imho

This is where you're completely mistaken. My arguments have been aimed squarely at your claims, not Israel. But every time you're called out on your nonsense, you hide behind Israel like a shield and start fabricating things about me just to provoke a reaction and get under my skin. It’s transparent, and it’s weak.

Funny that you think I'm talking nonsense

 

[DrZoidberg]

You’re not here to defend life. You’re here to get off on power. You're turned on by domination, whether it's in a bedroom with ropes or through bombs on a population you’ll never meet. You treat both with the same emotional distance, cold, calculated, and performative. With an added twist of sick fuckery when speaking about children.

That wasn’t much of a defense speech. Is it a secret why you want Hamas to stay in power?

You don’t care who’s in power. You just want the suffering to continue long enough to get off. Hamas, Israel, doesn’t matter. As long as the kids are dying on schedule.

You have it backwards. You want nothing done to prevent Hams from committing atrocity after atrocity.

I don’t support Hamas, never have, never will. Not explicitly, not implicitly. So let’s stop pretending this manufactured narrative is anything but a deliberate misrepresentation meant to provoke. Mission accomplished, you got a reaction. But it doesn’t make the claim any less false, and it doesn’t make your tactic any less transparent.

No its not intended to provoke. But good that you react emotionally when the logical conclusion of your opinions are spelled out to you

 

[Gospel]

More empty talk no evidence..

 

[Gospel]

spelled out to you

Where exactly? The opportunity has been open for months for you to back up your claim, and you haven’t produced a single shred of evidence. Just the same accusation on repeat, like that somehow makes it true.
Look, if providing evidence is too difficult, I get it, but don’t expect the conversation to move beyond me asking for proof every single time you repeat that claim.

Meanwhile, I’ve already shown plenty of evidence that what you really lack is a spine, and any genuine concern for the people of Israel.

I also think your behaviour is disgraceful.

Are you seriously under the delusion that I care what you think at this point? Don’t get it twisted, this is a discussion board. Getting a reply doesn’t magically mean anyone values your opinion. Sometimes it just means your nonsense needed correcting.

 

[Elixir]

Ends don't ALWAYS justify means.
This tango has always required two, and Bibi is one of them.

 

[Swammerdami]

You have been reminded over and over and over again of oppressions that Palestinians have endured for decades. To remind you of just the most clear-cut example, there are a million Israelis illegally(*) settled in the West Bank at considerable loss to the Palestinians they have displaced. These settlements were NOT for Israel's security. Many of the settlers occupied the stolen land NOT because "God gave the land to" them but because the Israel government subsidized the settlements.

Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

* - To state the obvious for Mr. Pechtel's benefit, in this context "illegal" obviously refers to International Law, and not to the hypocrisies of the criminal Tel Aviv regime.

As for the kicking out part--you have been repeatedly reminded that that basically didn't happen. Most of the departures were of their own free will before the fighting started.

You appear to be conflating two completely different issues -- two different displacements:

1. The displacement of Palestinians during 1947-49. This is obviously NOT what I was speaking of, but, pedictability, you get it wrong also. Many of the departures were voluntary; I'm not sure about "most" -- does it matter? Approximately 15,000 Palestinians, mostly civilian, were killed during that conflict and 750,000+ Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled.
   
   Benny Morris is a distinguished Professor of History and describes himself as a Zionist.
   

   What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

   The term "ethnic cleansing" has been applied to much anti-Arab activity. Some of this dates back to the British conquest of Palestine in World War I, with the 1917 Balfour Declaration partly responsible for anti-Arab oppression.
   

   Aerial photographs taken by first world war German pilots are combined with mandate-era and Israeli maps supplemented by digitally enhanced satellite images that record old tribal boundaries, neighbourhoods and even individual buildings. Most striking are the hundreds of Arab villages that were destroyed or ploughed under fields, as well as postwar Jewish settlements and suburbs.

   
   I do NOT advocate tracing the conflict back into old history or ancient history. (Did it all start when Isaac' son Jacob cheated his older brother of his inheritance? ) BUT that is what you seem to do. You point to any item of bad Hamas or Palestinian behavior and use it to justify any of Netanyahu's war crimes after that date.
   
   
2. But what I was obviously referring to was the illegal confiscation of Palestinian land in the West Bank. These settlements began in earnest in 1974 and continue until the present.
   
   Let me repeat the question you are unwilling to answer:
   Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

The Arab nations encouraged them to get out of the way of the coming war, they listened. Oops, the war didn't go as expected. And they wouldn't swear to be peaceful if they returned, thus they were not allowed to return.

And, once again, you bring up the settlements. I've already said I don't like them, but that they are a red herring. The war traces back to 1948, unless the Palestinians have a time machine the settlements have nothing to do with that.

Read your own words, please! Everything AFTER 1948 is irrelevant, of no moral consequence ... according to YOU. You think Palestinians who are long-since dead did something wrong in 1948 so any atrocities committed by Israel after that date are justified, but any reprisal against Israel is evil. By that logic the abuses of Britain in 1917 should be relevant. Or should we go back to Genesis Chapter 25? Hogwash! Gibberish!! Two wrongs do NOT make a right! Did you not learn this in 2nd grade??

 

[Gospel]

Ends don't ALWAYS justify means.
This tango has always required two, and Bibi is one of them.

Bibi honestly reminds me of George Bush, not the most inspiring leader, prone to mistakes, but when you consider what’s waiting around the corner, he starts to look a lot more measured. Some of his coalition partners are openly calling for the mass displacement of Palestinians, and that’s a nightmare scenario. In that context, Netanyahu is far from a problem, it’s the extremists around him who risk turning this conflict into a generational disaster (not saying it isn't already one).

The same way Loren and DrZoidberg push genocidal rhetoric that doesn’t even reflect Israel’s own official stance, these voices aren’t helping, they’re ensuring the cycle continues for decades, maybe centuries.

Right now, there are two real paths forward. And I think Netanyahu, despite everything, is choosing the more realistic one: cutting off the leadership of hostile forces while leaving open the possibility of working with the people of Iran and Palestine to build something better. That’s the exact approach I suggested light years ago in this discussion. But instead of engaging with that vision, I was told I’m living in a fantasy and accused, both knowingly and unknowingly, of supporting Hamas propaganda.

Turns out, pushing for peace while rejecting extremism on both sides is somehow more controversial than it should be.

Anyway, the Palestinians will need to make some major adjustments. They need a significantly stronger emphasis on nonviolent resistance, diplomacy, and showcasing Palestinian civil society, education, and innovation to counteract the narrative that "Palestinians = terrorists." I believe that can and will succeed but it will be a very steep clime considering they'd have to endure a rightfully pissed off Israel.

Edit: That and the fact Gaza's infrastructure is all but gone.

 

[TomC]

Instead of being horrified.. at Hamas... for the high casualties you are angry at Israel. That's fucked up imho

This is where you're completely mistaken. My arguments have been aimed squarely at your claims, not Israel. But every time you're called out on your nonsense, you hide behind Israel like a shield and start fabricating things about me just to provoke a reaction and get under my skin. It’s transparent, and it’s weak.

Funny that you think I'm talking nonsense

There're reasons I don't respond to him anymore.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Instead of being horrified.. at Hamas... for the high casualties you are angry at Israel. That's fucked up imho

This is where you're completely mistaken. My arguments have been aimed squarely at your claims, not Israel. But every time you're called out on your nonsense, you hide behind Israel like a shield and start fabricating things about me just to provoke a reaction and get under my skin. It’s transparent, and it’s weak.

Funny that you think I'm talking nonsense

There're reasons I don't respond to him anymore.
Tom

And there’s two reasons I only like 1 out of every 100 of your posts. First, I don’t have some internal bias toward pixels on a screen. And second, when someone’s actually right about something, I’ll acknowledge it no matter who it is.

 

[Gospel]

Instead of being horrified.. at Hamas... for the high casualties you are angry at Israel. That's fucked up imho

This is where you're completely mistaken. My arguments have been aimed squarely at your claims, not Israel. But every time you're called out on your nonsense, you hide behind Israel like a shield and start fabricating things about me just to provoke a reaction and get under my skin. It’s transparent, and it’s weak.

Funny that you think I'm talking nonsense

You’re talking nonsense. I’ve made it clear, I’m furious with Hamas for holding leadership in Gaza by force, using civilians as human shields, and carrying out attacks on Israel that have led to the deaths of thousands (Israeli's and Palestinian's alike).

But what you really take issue with is that I’ve called you out for giving a blank check when it comes to Palestinian civilian lives, by pretending every death can be pinned solely on Hamas. Israel itself hasn’t made that claim, so I’m not arguing against Israel, I’m arguing against you.

You’re the one posting rhetoric that amounts to genocide. Last I checked, the Israeli government doesn’t post on this forum. So stop hiding behind Israel to defend your own inhumane views. If you want to preach collective punishment, own it, but don’t pretend you're speaking for a nation. You're just using its name as cover for your own cruelty.

 

[Gospel]

Anyway, it seems like you’ve been walking back some of that rhetoric lately, which is interesting. Maybe you realized how much you came off like a genocidal creep. But what I don’t get is why you keep clinging to this Hamas nonsense and trying to pin it on me.

I get it, having your poor judgment called out stings. But at some point, you’ve got to stop being mad at me for pointing it out. This childish lashing out and fabricating things about me isn’t helping your case. I got upset about it, you got your reaction. But apparently that wasn’t enough, because now it just feels like you’re trying to provoke me for the sake of it.