Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Gospel]

On the topic of allowing systematic oppression to persist unchallenged, you're the one who wants Israel to back off in Gaza.

No, I want Israel to hold Hamas accountable without throwing an entire civilian population under the bus. You, on the other hand, justify collective punishment and then pretend it's justice. That’s not opposing oppression, it’s enabling it. Like a true white supremacist.

Edit: I haven’t seen any official statements from the Israeli government that align with DrZoidberg’s opinion, so don’t try to hide behind the Israeli people. This is all you.

This is just something you keep repeating. I have no idea what you are alluding to

Alluding? That’s cute. What you’re doing is hiding behind the Israeli people every time someone challenges your garbage takes. The white supremacist rhetoric you spew doesn’t come from Israel, it comes from you. But instead of owning it, you throw the entire State of Israel in front of you like a human shield, hoping to deflect criticism. Then you twist it like I’m attacking Israel, when I’ve been calling you out the whole time. Be honest for once and stand on your own white supremacist words.

 

[Gospel]

You’ve got the audacity to call me a coward while you hide behind an entire country, one that's already under attack from Hamas and facing threats from Iran, just to peddle your white supremacist filth. You don’t defend Israel, you exploit its struggle to launder your hate. The fucking nerve of you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

On the topic of allowing systematic oppression to persist unchallenged, you're the one who wants Israel to back off in Gaza.

No, I want Israel to hold Hamas accountable without throwing an entire civilian population under the bus. You, on the other hand, justify collective punishment and then pretend it's justice.

No, I'm not. Stop parroting pro-Hamas bullshit propaganda. That is a proposterous statement.

That’s not opposing oppression, it’s enabling it. Like a true white supremacist.

Lol. Now it's slander and ad hominem. Well done.

Edit: I haven’t seen any official statements from the Israeli government that align with DrZoidberg’s opinion, so don’t try to hide behind the Israeli people. This is all you.

This is just something you keep repeating. I have no idea what you are alluding to

Alluding? That’s cute. What you’re doing is hiding behind the Israeli people every time someone challenges your garbage takes.

How am I hiding behind Israeli people?

The white supremacist rhetoric you spew doesn’t come from Israel, it comes from you.

I don't thini it's white supremacy rhetoric. That's just something you keep saying, without it having any basis in reality.

But instead of owning it, you throw the entire State of Israel in front of you like a human shield, hoping to deflect criticism.

I don't know what this means.

Then you twist it like I’m attacking Israel, when I’ve been calling you out the whole time. Be honest for once and stand on your own white supremacist words.

You're parroting pro-Hamas propaganda. What other conclusion should I make... do you think?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Unless you have a realistic plan to remove Hamas from power, you got nothing.

You mean the post I made on January 10, 2024, the one you completely dismissed without engaging with any of it?

IMO, Israel should leverage the legal case brought against them by South Africa, using it as an opportunity to take responsibility. They must commit to a sincere and transparent effort to help rebuild Gaza, working collaboratively with Palestinians as they return to their homes. This is a critical moment to put an end to the longstanding open-air prison conditions & the establishment of a new constitution for the Palestinian people who actually desire the same freedom of and freedom from religion the west has. Being in a position of influence, Israel cannot simply walk away & they damn sure can't keep the territory. Instead, they should proactively engage with returning Palestinians, expressing genuine remorse with hopes that they can turn all the anger and pain into shared interests and values. This is not only morally imperative but also essential for Israel's own security. A concerted effort to assist in the reconstruction of Palestinian territories, with an emphasis on reconciliation and cooperation, should take precedence. LIKE YESTERDAY. I have no idea WTF they can possibly do now other than that. Stay in Gaza? Leave it empty? Make it a military complex? Choosing any of those alternatives would be a grave error, potentially leading the region into conflicts of a magnitude beyond human capacity to manage effectively.

Looks likes Israel is actually following half of my suggestions so far. The rest? Well there is still time.

Where I was right:​

• Aid & Reconstruction: You called for Israel to take responsibility and help rebuild Gaza. In 2025, Israel backed the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) alongside the U.S. and is participating in international reconstruction talks.

Agreed

• Engaging Palestinians: You suggested Israel work with Palestinians returning to Gaza. Plans now include involving the Palestinian Authority (not Hamas) in future governance as part of a ceasefire and rebuilding strategy.

We'll see. Israel will be an occupying force. Who the fuck knows what's going to happen? Whatever happens Israel will not risk losing control over Gaza again.

BTW, the Palestinian Authority was always a preposterously corrupt organisation basically living large on foreign aid, screwing over the Palestinians. Which is, of course, why Hamas gained power in Gaza. Israel knows this. It's a politically complicated situation... because there's no viable Palestinian horse to back. Hamas destroyed all Palestinian opposition.

If Palestinians have historically had a problem with what they perceive as foreign occupation, they're not going to cooperate with the Palestinian Authority. Who they just see as a western front.

I think everyone involved, (in positions of power in the region) understands that the only viable way forward is something where Palestinians feel and genuinly have, self rule. Whatever it is that is in charge... whatever the name of it... will have to be something new. And it'll be under Israeli oversight. There's no way in hell Isreal will allow any Gaza govornment to have it's own army. At this point.. that would be reckless.

Self rule under Israeli military control is, right now, an impossible problem to solve. I don't envy those in charge of trying to make this work afterwards.

I genuinly hope they succeed. And I hope Palestinians will, finally, find some peace and prosperity.

• Security + Morality: You warned against military occupation or abandoning Gaza. Israel is negotiating a phased ceasefire with partial withdrawal and has avoided permanently reoccupying Gaza (so far).

Politics is the art of the possible. If you can't get what you want, you might have to settle for what you can have. No matter what happens... there's going to be a compromise solution that makes no one happy. Ie politics.

Where I was wrong (So Far):​

• Public Remorse: You expected Israel to express remorse. There’s been no official apology or acknowledgment of long-term responsibility—only limited acknowledgment of specific incidents.

But why would they express remorse? That would mean they thought they did something wrong. They haven't.

I think it's going to be a while before the Allies express remorse and apologise for what they did to the German people during WW2. It's ludicrous to expect that, imho.

• Shared Governance/Constitution: You proposed helping Palestinians form a new constitution and shared governance. Israel has not committed to anything close to constitutional reform or direct co-governance with Gazans.

Correct. They've committed to nothing. Because they have no Palestinian authority on the Gazan side to negotiate with. Hamas saw to that. The PA is the only thing to talk to. But they have zero respect from the Palestinians.

• Ending “Prison Conditions”: The blockade and control of Gaza’s borders remain firmly in place. Israel still restricts movement and trade—no indication yet of a shift away from those conditions.

They're going to keep that strategy in place as long as it's working. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

It's a "blockade". Calling it "prison conditions" is unnecessary emotionally manipulative,imho. It's also false. Whenever sanctions are put on a country, it's the civilians who suffer the most. We still do it, because it's still an effective way to target the leadership of a country. It's also standard in warfare.

Edit: I used chatgpt for the list (forgot to mention it - forum rules).

he he. A friend of mine recently pointed out that any debate online now is just Chat GPT arguing against itself. I don't think it's that bad. But it was a funny comment.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It’s hard to believe IIDB allows someone openly echoing white supremacist rhetoric to remain on their staff.

Its not. Its just slander on your part. The idea that it's white supremacy rhetoric, you just pulled out of your arse. Its not. I don't buy it.

Aww, look at you, talking about slander, that's so cute. Meanwhile, I’ve backed up everything I’ve said with direct quotes and clear examples of you and Loren using rhetoric that mirrors white supremacist language. So tell me, what exactly have you brought to the table besides another empty claim? People like you and Loren have no place in civil society.

I still don't know what you mean.

On the topic of white supremacy, if everyone had your impeccable morals we'd all be speaking German today.

 

[ZiprHead]

With anything related to Israel/Palestine, figure that anything that should be there but is missing is favorable to Israel. You will almost never be wrong.

How convenient that is for you. Makes your propaganda so much easier for you.

 

[pood]

View attachment 51228

This picture keeps bugging me because it feels off. Has anyone ever seen a baby head that actually looks like that?

And now that I'm looking at it again. Look at the eyes--perfect focus. The camera is off to the side, the body should be at the same distance from the lens as the face--yet it looks out of focus. And look at the torso, starting from a point at the top of the elbow, descending almost to the sheet where it goes behind the bar. What part of the body is that?

And the bar is quite out of focus as would be expected--but there's no blur to the edge of the arm that should be nearly as close as the bar.

This is photoshop or AI.

Just … wow.

That was a BBC reporter and photog who got into that hospital. BBC does not print fraudulent photos or stories. It’s absolutely pathetic to deny the reality staring you in the face because for you criticizing Israel is off limits, period..

 

[pood]

Read it and weep.

Absolutely pathetic and outrageous that anyone defends this monstrous Israeli behavior.

 

[pood]

For the cameraman, “something had broken inside of him.”

For Loren, it’s just a Photoshop trick.

Appalling.

 

[laughing dog]

It’s hard to believe IIDB allows someone openly echoing white supremacist rhetoric to remain on their staff.

Its not. Its just slander on your part. The idea that it's white supremacy rhetoric, you just pulled out of your arse. Its not. I don't buy it.

You’d think that is a rebuttal, but in your case it’s a confirmation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No one here is a violent terrorist apologist, so you can knock off the slurs and slander right now.

Many on here claim that Hamas' actions are due to Israel's actions. Let's reframe that a bit: rape is due to women being immodest. (The Israeli action that's behind everything: existence.)

Instead of reframing things with an extremely stupid analogy, how about you support the end of the slurs and slander on this discussion board like a moderator should?

Calling it stupid does not refute it.

What is there to refute?

No one is saying women deserve to be raped. In fact, you are the only one I can recall who ever said that rape is sometimes justified.

And no one is saying people attending a music festival, working on farms, or just going about their daily lives deserve to be murdered or kidnapped, except for a few who think it's okay as long as the victims aren't Jewish.

When you keep pointing to Israeli actions to explain Hamas you are saying that 10/7 was justified and thus that all the horrors of it were justified.

And you're the one that said "violent terrorist apologist". I simply pointed out an example of apologist behavior without naming anyone, you decided the shoe fit.

The shoe doesn't fit _anyone_ participating in this discussion.

That's the point, Loren.

It's just slander being used to deflect criticism.

You can't slander a nobody. I put no identification on it.

If you think someone here is a violent terrorist apologist, provide quotes with links to their post that support the allegation. Then we'll talk about what it means to be an apologist for a political party that kills people for their perceived religious affiliations and ethnicity, and/or an ethos that judges the rightness or wrongness of bombing gatherings of civilians based on what's in it for them, and who is doing it to whom.

Very few would dispute that Hamas will kill you for being Jewish. I see no examples of Israel killing someone for being Muslim.

And "bombing" is completely irrelevant, that's a means, not a result. Look at the results. 10/7--atrocities that Hamas crows about. The Gaza war--Israel bending over backwards to evacuate targets when they were aiming at things rather than people. The crowing about part is extremely damning.

I will repeat this with added emphasis:

If you think someone here is a violent terrorist apologist, provide quotes with links to their post that supports the allegation.

Then we'll talk about what it means to be an apologist for a political party that kills people for their perceived religious affiliation, ethnicity, etc.

Support the allegation or stop making it.

Nobody here intends to be a terrorist apologist. But saying Israel caused 10/7 is being a terrorist apologist.

The Gazans are suffering because of an ongoing war in which war crimes are being committed.

Eternally insisting there are war crimes doesn't make it so. I've already pointed out how Geneva is being misapplied.

No, you didn't.

You've already demonstrated you know even less about the Geneva Conventions than you do about UN conventions on the Rights of Refugees and the Rights of Indigenous people.

What I've shown is that Geneva keeps being used as some sort of magic spell.

No, you didn't.

You claimed that it was and then posted some clearly ignorant "interpretations" of a straw man version of the Geneva Conventions you dreamed up.

I've been citing what Geneva says.

Targeting civilian food? Prohibited--but there is no such prohibition on targeting enemy supplies. At the point Hamas takes it it's a valid target.

Permitting aid to enter? Only if it's not going to be diverted. And there's a very high diversion rate.

Dead civilians? Geneva doesn't prohibit that. It says they should do as good as they can--and since they're doing far better than anyone else I consider that obligation met.

Hitting hospitals etc? They forfeit their protection if they are used by the enemy. Just look at the news: Israel has captured various hospitals--but capture implies resistance. Look up "open city"--that's how they should be behaving, there should be no defense.

We do have one clear Geneva violation but it's irrelevant: giving notice about misuse. It would be an exercise in stupidity.

And ^here^ you demonstrate your absolute ignorance. NHC has cited the relevant sections that address each of these points but clearly you didn't bother to follow those links or find new ones.

Over and over he cites part of Geneva. Geneva protects purely civilian things. It does not protect military use. Again and again I show where the protection he is citing is not extended to misuse.

We have two "violations" of Geneva.

1) Failing to send notice. That's pretty superfluous given the situation.

2) "Fighting" out of uniform. This one's rich--big issues about Israel sneaking in people to rescue hostages (notably, such sneaking is not combat and does not involve the reason Geneva requires uniforms--when the bullets fly there's no question who is the IDF), while totally ignoring those trying to stop it also not being in uniform.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Read it and weep.

Absolutely pathetic and outrageous that anyone defends this monstrous Israeli behavior.

That's just the thing... there are bustling cafès in Gaza. There is plenty of food in Gaza. Those unlucky enough to be caught in a shitty situation are starving. But most aren't.

Not that Hamas are forcing people to stay, but they're not helping them leave war zones either.

Every suffering child is one too many. But every child in Gaza is not starving

And FYI, when military targets go and hang out in busy cafés they're endangering the civilians in that café. Its like they're using the civilians as human shields. But that tactic isn't working

 

[ZiprHead]

That's just the thing... there are bustling cafès in Gaza. There is plenty of food in Gaza. Those unlucky enough to be caught in a shitty situation are starving. But most aren't.

That is counter to any reporting on the situation in Gaza today. I suggest you provide some proof of this to be believed .

 

[laughing dog]

When you keep pointing to Israeli actions to explain Hamas you are saying that 10/7 was justified and thus that all the horrors of it were justified.

Regardless of the validity of your premise, your conclusion does not follow from your premise: explanation is not justification. Understanding why something occurs does not require justification.

For example, I believe I have an explanation for the IDF apologetics from you and Dr Zoidberg, but that explanation does not provide a justification for their quality or accuracy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The entire narrative of Palestinians as poor oppressed victims is such bullshit. The culture of the Palestinians is so poisoned its now toxic. There's historical reasons for this. But an explanation is not an excuse. There's no excuse for how the Palestinians of Gaza and Lebanon have behaved towards Israel.

Due to how extreme Palestinian behaviour has been, Israel is limited in what they can do to live in peace next to them.

No, Israel isn't perfect. But at least they're behaving responsibly. We have yet to see any such behaviour from Palestinians.

The thing is they have been brainwashed from birth. They have no realistic chance to know what they are doing is evil.

But that doesn't mean the world needs to tolerate it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am asking for your evidence that something you say happened really did happen, and that it happened often enough often enough to justify the killing of barefoot shirtless men trying to surrender to IDF soldiers in Gaza.

You have provided no evidence that supports your claims, despite repeated requests. So at this point I'm calling shenanigans.

Just look at the discussion of why the hostages got shot.

Under normal conditions the actions of the soldier who fired would be in the insane category. But everyone on the Israeli side seems to regard it as an understandable mistake--which only makes sense if this was a rare real one amongst a sea of fakes. In other situations Israel has definitely condemned misdeeds, so it's not a coverup.

As with so much of the world, look for the answer that is the least surprising.

You say it happens so frequently it doesn't get reported. Is that your excuse for being unable to support your claim? No one reports the things you magically know by using your super senses?

Can you find a news report of "man gets speeding ticket"?

If you had any interest in getting your facts straight you could have done a bit or research, not just made up stories about what happened to Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka. You would know it wasn't just one soldier who opened fire. You would know Haim's death is especially appalling.

You might not know it was a war crime. You don't seem to be able to identify those. But you at least would know how easy it is to spot your bullshit.

I'm saying it would be hard for Israel to do and they would have no reason to, it would be easy for Hamas to do and very beneficial. Which explanation makes more sense? Don't blindly decide it must be Israel because they're the bad guys, look at which scenario makes more sense.

You are saying it would be hard for Israeli snipers to kill Palestinians, or to set up video surveillance of the bombed out areas they control? Don't be ridiculous.

Pretty hard for snipers to be set up in hostile territory. Someone would note the shots and backtrack the snipers. You can snipe from the wilderness, sniping from within a hostile population is very difficult. Look at what actually happens when someone tries it--they're always promptly backtracked even by an unarmed population. (Although said unarmed population will not engage they can still point.) And we are to believe that Israel does it successfully over and over? And why are there no other kills attributed to said "snipers"?

Look for the answer that leaves the fewest things that don't fit.

I agree there was nothing going on that made it necessary for a sniper to shoot. I disagree that there was nothing going on that would have caused one to shoot:

Israeli Soldiers Ordered to Shoot at Unarmed Palestinians Waiting for Aid

'No Civilians. Everyone's a Terrorist': IDF Soldiers Expose Arbitrary Kilings and Rampant Lawlessness in Gaza's Netzarim Corridor

Both of these trace to Haaretz. They are not a credible source.

Note that other reporting on the situation said the soldiers were ordered to fire "towards" the crowd. Not "at" the crowd. That is a very important distinction--in a military context firing towards means warning shots into the air.

Is that really your argument? Hamas knows the Israelis will commit war crimes so it sets up cameras to catch IDF forces in the act?

The point is that without any contact with them we have no evidence that they're actually IDF. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense if they're Hamas.

We do have evidence. We have reporters and satellite images indicating who was in control of those parts of Gaza at the time of the killings, and we have responses from the IDF when questioned about the events.

It makes sense to you that it was Hamas' doing because Hamas is all powerful and the IDF their hapless dupes whenever it suits your argument.

The sniper claims all involve things where Israel didn't control the area.

Where they were was never suggested--but if they don't know where how can they know who?? And the lines were far enough away that a sniper shot would have been extremely difficult even if they had a line of sight. The whole thing makes a hell of a lot more sense as Hamas. And some of the reports on it said a burst of fire. Snipers don't fire bursts.

Murdering ambulance drivers and paramedics attempting to reach injured civilians is not self defense.

Well, if the ambulance drivers would quit ferrying combatants around they would get the protections traditionally given ambulances.

You have no evidence the ambulance drivers are ferrying combatants around, especially the ones who coordinate their activities with the IDF.

Israel has published shots of them doing it long ago. The Red Crescent refused to condemn the behavior.

Oh, yeah, you forgot about that, didn't you? That the ambulances are notifying the IDF of their planned route of travel and waiting for the IDF to greenlight the rescue attempt but are still being killed by IDF forces along with the injured civilians they are trying to reach.

Apparently you think Israel is committing this type of war crime is also predictable.

And why do you automatically assume it's true? Plenty of other claims have been proven false.

You have no evidence I automatically assume anything is true, and quite a bit of evidence I check my sources and don't use the ones that post lies and exaggerations.

Did you read either of the news stories I linked to? Care to discuss them? Or are you just going to bullshit, make vague references to events you say happened, fail to support your assertions, and lie about me?

Your "news" is from Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel was hit by 21 000 rockets over the past month.

These rockets don't make it into the news. Because it's not news. It just keeps going.. on and on and on. And has, with short breaks, for decades.

And this is what people keep ignoring.

News reports the unusual. Not the horrific normal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If your priority isn't getting rid of Hamas

If your priority is to ignore EVERY FUCKING TIME I SAY HAMAS NEEDS TO GO THEN YOU NEED TO JUST STFU AND ADMIT YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT I SAY AND WOULD RATHER KEEP PARROTING BULLSHIT.

We hear you--the problem is we also see you saying that Israel must sit there and take it if they lack a means of perfect defense.

 

[bilby]

Under normal conditions the actions of the soldier who fired would be in the insane category. But everyone on the Israeli side seems to regard it as an understandable mistake--which only makes sense if this was a rare real one amongst a sea of fakes. In other situations Israel has definitely condemned misdeeds, so it's not a coverup.

Translation:

"It's not a coverup; We know this from the fact that the people who might be covering it up, and their allies and supporters, all seem to think it's fine and dandy".

 

[laughing dog]

If your priority isn't getting rid of Hamas

If your priority is to ignore EVERY FUCKING TIME I SAY HAMAS NEEDS TO GO THEN YOU NEED TO JUST STFU AND ADMIT YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT I SAY AND WOULD RATHER KEEP PARROTING BULLSHIT.

We hear you--the problem is we also see you saying that Israel must sit there and take it if they lack a means of perfect defense.

Either produce an actual statement of Gospel’s that says that or stop making up stuff. As a moderator you should model appropriate poster behavior instead of acting like Trump.