How a broomstick-swinging, mentally ill man ended up shot dead by police

[laughing dog]

You are the one claiming there was excessive force, not me. I'm saying you are asserting it without any evidence.

To be fair, you have not produced one iota of actual evidence to support your position that it is not excessive force.

 

[Godless Raven]

No....none of that nonsense. I'm saying the police say it's the type with a metal tip. They didn't say he was swinging a broom, they said he was swinging a broomstick, which implies it was disconnected. The metal tip is on the end that screws the handle on. In order for him to hit someone with the metal tip, it would have to be disconnected.

Nobody said anything about a spear, now you're just being goofy.

You are the one claiming there was excessive force, not me. I'm saying you are asserting it without any evidence. I'm saying those of you that are insinuating or straight out saying it was racial motivated are doing so without any evidence.

From what you put in bold you apparently cannot read and comprehend simple concepts, or...you are intentionally twisting my words around. If these are your best excuse for "arguments", you've got nothing worth discussing.

Well, you said "especially if it's been broken off or sawed half sized is most...", i took that to mean pointy like a spear.

But we actually do know they used excessive force for gods sake! They shot him after he ran! That is, at least in my country, considered excessive force as the guy is not an immidiate threat to anyone, and a policeman would probably be procecuted afterwards if he shot him.

What I meant by if it were sawed off or broken off it would be easier to swing as a club.

No, you are asserting "we" know it was excessive force. There's a big difference between those two things.

I like how you conveniently leave out the actual events in this case where he ran, turned around and then came back after the cops after he'd already split one of their heads. Making it sound like he was gunned down from behind running is sad.

If your country's laws are as you state then all he had to be was an immediate threat. He was insane, had terrified his mother in to locking him out of the house, and had within seconds just been criminally assaulting two police officers. Then he turns back to have a go at them again. If you cannot see this as an immediate threat...I can't help you. Your country's laws sound fine to me...the issue isn't the law.

 

[Godless Raven]

You are the one claiming there was excessive force, not me. I'm saying you are asserting it without any evidence.

To be fair, you have not produced one iota of actual evidence to support your position that it is not excessive force.

To be actually fair...I never once stated that my position is that it was NOT excessive force. That might be a reason why I haven't produced evidence to support that position. This is getting really sad you two.

I said there was nothing in this story to indicate race was a factor. I said there is plenty of doubt that this was excessive force or unwarranted based on the information that's available. I'm the one that has tried to point out that depending on what type of stick he had as a weapon, whether he was coming back to continue beating on them etc indicate that it's WRONG to jump on the police officers and try turn this lunatic in to Trayvon Martin. And I'm turned off by the way the police have been shit all over when none of you have more info than I or anyone else does.

Aside from distortions hyperbole and baseless assumptions, what evidence have either of you provided as evidence for your assertions?

 

[laughing dog]

To be fair, you have not produced one iota of actual evidence to support your position that it is not excessive force.

To be actually fair...I never once stated that my position is that it was NOT excessive force. That might be a reason why I haven't produced evidence to support that position. This is getting really sad you two.

I said there was nothing in this story to indicate race was a factor. I said there is plenty of doubt that this was excessive force or unwarranted based on the information that's available. I'm the one that has tried to point out that depending on what type of stick he had as a weapon, whether he was coming back to continue beating on them etc indicate that it's WRONG to jump on the police officers and try turn this lunatic in to Trayvon Martin.

Maybe you are in the wrong thread if you believe people are trying to turn this poor man into Trayvon Martin.

And I'm turned off by the way the police have been shit all over when none of you have more info than I or anyone else does.

That explains your willingness to literally make shit up.

Aside from distortions hyperbole and baseless assumptions, what evidence have either of you provided as evidence for your assertions?

What assertion(s) are you under the impression I have made? That is a sincere question because your responses seem to be based on straw men.

 

[crispy]

Well, you said "especially if it's been broken off or sawed half sized is most...", i took that to mean pointy like a spear.

But we actually do know they used excessive force for gods sake! They shot him after he ran! That is, at least in my country, considered excessive force as the guy is not an immidiate threat to anyone, and a policeman would probably be procecuted afterwards if he shot him.

What I meant by if it were sawed off or broken off it would be easier to swing as a club.

No, you are asserting "we" know it was excessive force. There's a big difference between those two things.

I like how you conveniently leave out the actual events in this case where he ran, turned around and then came back after the cops after he'd already split one of their heads. Making it sound like he was gunned down from behind running is sad.

If your country's laws are as you state then all he had to be was an immediate threat. He was insane, had terrified his mother in to locking him out of the house, and had within seconds just been criminally assaulting two police officers. Then he turns back to have a go at them again. If you cannot see this as an immediate threat...I can't help you. Your country's laws sound fine to me...the issue isn't the law.

Sorry didnt see the article you posted where he charges them (with broomstick?). Still doesn't change the fact that two police officers can handle a guy with a broomstick without resorting to shooting him.

 

[Godless Raven]

What is this soapboxing about police being militarized? He was shot with a pistol, not a bazooka.

The militarizing of police is as much about their mindset as the hardware they now use. When they view the public as an enemy that needs to be subdued and no longer see themselves as part of a community they are protecting they will choose lethal solutions more often.

I don't know what the best tactical option would have been for this guy but termination can't be the go to choice. A broomstick just isn't that lethal.

Ask Jeffery Dahmer if he agrees with you...oh that's right, he can't as he had his head caved in with a broom handle. There's actually a serial killer called the broomstick killer. If this was an industrial broom and it was a broom stick or even worse a "broom handle" (which some accounts have said it is) you could crush bones and easily knock someone unconscious.

I don't know for a fact that this guy was using the heaviest of the industrial brooms as his weapon...nobody does...all I'm pointing out is that the vague description so far, of it having a metal tip and capable of busting someones head open...that sounds like one of those types, and not the flimsy plastic type a lot of people have.

If officers are facing someone who could knock them cold and the person is trying to, tazing doesn't work...lethal force may be justified.

 

[laughing dog]

Ask Jeffery Dahmer if he agrees with you...oh that's right, he can't as he had his head caved in with a broom handle.

You are seriously comparing a bludgeoning death of a single person to this situation where multiple police were involved? Wow.

There's actually a serial killer called the broomstick killer.

Yeah, he strangled someone to death with it. (http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/the-broomstick-killer). If this guy had been strangling someone with the broomstick, you'd have a point. But he wasn't.

If this was an industrial broom and it was a broom stick or even worse a "broom handle" (which some accounts have said it is) you could crush bones and easily knock someone unconscious.

I don't know for a fact that this guy was using the heaviest of the industrial brooms as his weapon...nobody does...all I'm pointing out is that the vague description so far, of it having a metal tip and capable of busting someones head open...that sounds like one of those types, and not the flimsy plastic type a lot of people have.

If officers are facing someone who could knock them cold and the person is trying to, tazing doesn't work...lethal force may be justified.

Or not. And your argument seems to ignore the police were not afraid of being cold-cocked or beaten to death or strangled, since they did not shoot him on sight.

 

[Godless Raven]

You are seriously comparing a bludgeoning death of a single person to this situation where multiple police were involved? Wow.

There's actually a serial killer called the broomstick killer.

Yeah, he strangled someone to death with it. (http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/the-broomstick-killer). If this guy had been strangling someone with the broomstick, you'd have a point. But he wasn't.

If this was an industrial broom and it was a broom stick or even worse a "broom handle" (which some accounts have said it is) you could crush bones and easily knock someone unconscious.

I don't know for a fact that this guy was using the heaviest of the industrial brooms as his weapon...nobody does...all I'm pointing out is that the vague description so far, of it having a metal tip and capable of busting someones head open...that sounds like one of those types, and not the flimsy plastic type a lot of people have.

If officers are facing someone who could knock them cold and the person is trying to, tazing doesn't work...lethal force may be justified.

Or not. And your argument seems to ignore the police were not afraid of being cold-cocked or beaten to death or strangled, since they did not shoot him on sight.

1. Uh...no, I was not comparing a bludgeoning death of a single person to this situation. I am laughing in the face of the claim that a broom handle or broom stick cannot be a lethal weapon. You're one of the people making this ridiculous claim. Nice try...strawmen aren't going to work here.

2. Again...I'm not comparing how someone killed another person with a broomstick, I'm trying to make it abundantly clear that those of you that keep insinuating or outright saying the police were in no danger are not very well informed about the subject.

A broom handle/broom stick can be and has been a lethal weapon. I have points...you just seem impervious to having them penetrate your cranium...otherwise, I am perplexed as to why you continually misstate, mistake or outright make up shit about them. This is your problem...not mine.

3. Or...wtf are you even talking about!?! First you complain the police didn't do enough to wrestle fuck this crazy mother fucker, now you're talking about them not shooting him on sight as some fucked up explanation for why they weren't afraid of being cold-cocked?

I would assume they were aware they might be cold cocked on sight...after all...burning/stab man here was locked out of his own mothers house for fear for her safety and she told them he had a weapon. They saw him with the weapon. But no...they probably weren't in fear of being cold cocked until the crazy fuck started cold cocking them repeatedly. This is called an escalation of violence. When this happens law enforcement has little choice but to escalate the violence to subdue you.

The point you keep ignoring is that they tried to talk to him and fucking started assaulting them, splitting open the head of one of the officers, causing them to be hospitalized. So they tried tazing him, so they could avoid a lethal ending to the situation (fucking twice), and this crazy fucking idiot started to walk away and then turned back on them for more and started assaulting them AGAIN. Once you split someones head open with what you apparently think is a non-lethal weapon, and you go back for more, you are literally putting that persons life at risk.

You two literally do not have a pot to piss in, in this debate because you're doing nothing but ignore facts to substitute whatever the fuck this was supposed to be on this thread...all so you could bash police and throw in your slam about your relative being "white", when there's not one fucking thing about this case that is known right now that insinuates it has anything to do with race. This has been an utter embarrassment and nothing more.


I'd be willing to place a bet with nearly everything I own at stake...that every single one of you - if you were being beaten in the head with what was apparently a heavy broom handle with a metal tip - and it cracked your head open and you were bleeding, and the person came back to assault you more...would 100% think your life was in danger. (That's a terribly structured sentence that happens to contain a whole lot of truth in it)

Anyway...have fun continuing to jump the shark.

 

[laughing dog]

1. Uh...no, I was not comparing a bludgeoning death of a single person to this situation. I am laughing in the face of the claim that a broom handle or broom stick cannot be a lethal weapon. You're one of the people making this ridiculous claim. Nice try...strawmen aren't going to work here.

I am glad you agree you are employing straw men. Anything in the world can be a lethal weapon. So what? Fingers can be lethal. But someone swinging a finger around is not normally considered a lethal threat. So claiming a broomstick might be lethal as a rationale is terribly unconvincing argument.

2. Again...I'm not comparing how someone killed another person with a broomstick, I'm trying to make it abundantly clear that those of you that keep insinuating or outright saying the police were in no danger are not very well informed about the subject.

I see, you don't understand the difference between being in danger and being in lethal danger. The former means you don't have a good chance of being killed and the latter means you do.

A broom handle/broom stick can be and has been a lethal weapon. I have points...you just seem impervious to having them penetrate your cranium...otherwise, I am perplexed as to why you continually misstate, mistake or outright make up shit about them. This is your problem...not mine.

You are perplexed because you think a strangulation with a broomstick with the help of others presents the same sort of lethal danger as someone who is swinging a broomstick. You are perplexed because you think a bludgeoning with a broomstick in a confined area by perhaps multiple inmates on a single victim presents the same level of danger that someone swinging a broomstick in an open area against a couple of trained police officers. . That suggests the problem is with your reasoning,

3. Or...wtf are you even talking about!?! First you complain the police didn't do enough to wrestle fuck this crazy mother fucker, now you're talking about them not shooting him on sight as some fucked up explanation for why they weren't afraid of being cold-cocked?

It is hard to believe this is your natural level of obtuseness. You are the one claiming that the potential lethalness of the broomstick is a good reason to gun him down. Yet, if that broomstick had looked so dangerous, and the police could see how lethal this man was, why would they even try to taser him?

I would assume they were aware they might be cold cocked on sight...after all...burning/stab man here was locked out of his own mothers house for fear for her safety and she told them he had a weapon. They saw him with the weapon. But no...they probably weren't in fear of being cold cocked until the crazy fuck started cold cocking them repeatedly. This is called an escalation of violence. When this happens law enforcement has little choice but to escalate the violence to subdue you.

I see, the proper escalation of violence in this case is to shoot to kill.

The point you keep ignoring is that they tried to talk to him and fucking started assaulting them, splitting open the head of one of the officers, causing them to be hospitalized.

Really - he split the police officer's head open? Was the scalp opened to the skull or were the brains oozing out?

So they tried tazing him, so they could avoid a lethal ending to the situation (fucking twice), and this crazy fucking idiot started to walk away and then turned back on them for more and started assaulting them AGAIN. Once you split someones head open with what you apparently think is a non-lethal weapon, and you go back for more, you are literally putting that persons life at risk.

You two literally do not have a pot to piss in, in this debate because you're doing nothing but ignore facts to substitute whatever the fuck this was supposed to be on this thread...all so you could bash police and throw in your slam about your relative being "white", when there's not one fucking thing about this case that is known right now that insinuates it has anything to do with race.

I'm not the one confusing my "truthiness" with what actually happened - you are. I'm not the one ranting over straw men - you are. As for my comment about my brother's race - if you had actually read with a minimum level of comprehension, I explicitly wrote this happened about 40 years ago - when race mattered (especially where we lived).

This has been an utter embarrassment and nothing more.

I agree 100%. But I'll bet we disagree as to the cause or source.

I'd be willing to place a bet with nearly everything I own at stake...that every single one of you - if you were being beaten in the head with what was apparently a heavy broom handle with a metal tip - and it cracked your head open and you were bleeding, and the person came back to assault you more...would 100% think your life was in danger. (That's a terribly structured sentence that happens to contain a whole lot of truth in it)

Maybe I would. Then again, if I had other trained people with me, I wouldn't. Nice of you to omit those salient points in your comment.

 

[Nexus]

Ask Jeffery Dahmer if he agrees with you...oh that's right, he can't as he had his head caved in with a broom handle. There's actually a serial killer called the broomstick killer. If this was an industrial broom and it was a broom stick or even worse a "broom handle" (which some accounts have said it is) you could crush bones and easily knock someone unconscious.

Dahmer was ambushed in a confined area. I've studied filipino stick fighting arts for 17 years. I've also fought at Dog Brothers gatherings. But I'll let this guy explain to you why sticks just aren't that lethal.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AdruIi-Ff8[/YOUTUBE]

In case you don't want to watch it some of the highlights are the fact that blunt instruments don't even warrant their own category in death stats. Sticks are grouped with "other" which could be anything from coffee mugs, baseball bats to crowbars. Watch his video of the suspect being beaten by the cops. Notice that he isn't even trying to harm them yet can withstand a long beating. Sure a blunt object striking the head can be harmful but virtually everyone if confronted by a attacker with a stick will shield their head with hands and arms. Broom sticks are just not that lethal. Especially not to multiple cops.

 

[Godless Raven]

I am glad you agree you are employing straw men. Anything in the world can be a lethal weapon. So what? Fingers can be lethal. But someone swinging a finger around is not normally considered a lethal threat. So claiming a broomstick might be lethal as a rationale is terribly unconvincing argument.

2. Again...I'm not comparing how someone killed another person with a broomstick, I'm trying to make it abundantly clear that those of you that keep insinuating or outright saying the police were in no danger are not very well informed about the subject.

I see, you don't understand the difference between being in danger and being in lethal danger. The former means you don't have a good chance of being killed and the latter means you do.

A broom handle/broom stick can be and has been a lethal weapon. I have points...you just seem impervious to having them penetrate your cranium...otherwise, I am perplexed as to why you continually misstate, mistake or outright make up shit about them. This is your problem...not mine.

You are perplexed because you think a strangulation with a broomstick with the help of others presents the same sort of lethal danger as someone who is swinging a broomstick. You are perplexed because you think a bludgeoning with a broomstick in a confined area by perhaps multiple inmates on a single victim presents the same level of danger that someone swinging a broomstick in an open area against a couple of trained police officers. . That suggests the problem is with your reasoning,

3. Or...wtf are you even talking about!?! First you complain the police didn't do enough to wrestle fuck this crazy mother fucker, now you're talking about them not shooting him on sight as some fucked up explanation for why they weren't afraid of being cold-cocked?

It is hard to believe this is your natural level of obtuseness. You are the one claiming that the potential lethalness of the broomstick is a good reason to gun him down. Yet, if that broomstick had looked so dangerous, and the police could see how lethal this man was, why would they even try to taser him?

I would assume they were aware they might be cold cocked on sight...after all...burning/stab man here was locked out of his own mothers house for fear for her safety and she told them he had a weapon. They saw him with the weapon. But no...they probably weren't in fear of being cold cocked until the crazy fuck started cold cocking them repeatedly. This is called an escalation of violence. When this happens law enforcement has little choice but to escalate the violence to subdue you.

I see, the proper escalation of violence in this case is to shoot to kill.

The point you keep ignoring is that they tried to talk to him and fucking started assaulting them, splitting open the head of one of the officers, causing them to be hospitalized.

Really - he split the police officer's head open? Was the scalp opened to the skull or were the brains oozing out?

So they tried tazing him, so they could avoid a lethal ending to the situation (fucking twice), and this crazy fucking idiot started to walk away and then turned back on them for more and started assaulting them AGAIN. Once you split someones head open with what you apparently think is a non-lethal weapon, and you go back for more, you are literally putting that persons life at risk.

You two literally do not have a pot to piss in, in this debate because you're doing nothing but ignore facts to substitute whatever the fuck this was supposed to be on this thread...all so you could bash police and throw in your slam about your relative being "white", when there's not one fucking thing about this case that is known right now that insinuates it has anything to do with race.

I'm not the one confusing my "truthiness" with what actually happened - you are. I'm not the one ranting over straw men - you are. As for my comment about my brother's race - if you had actually read with a minimum level of comprehension, I explicitly wrote this happened about 40 years ago - when race mattered (especially where we lived).

This has been an utter embarrassment and nothing more.

I agree 100%. But I'll bet we disagree as to the cause or source.

I'd be willing to place a bet with nearly everything I own at stake...that every single one of you - if you were being beaten in the head with what was apparently a heavy broom handle with a metal tip - and it cracked your head open and you were bleeding, and the person came back to assault you more...would 100% think your life was in danger. (That's a terribly structured sentence that happens to contain a whole lot of truth in it)

Maybe I would. Then again, if I had other trained people with me, I wouldn't. Nice of you to omit those salient points in your comment.

No.

 

[Godless Raven]

Ask Jeffery Dahmer if he agrees with you...oh that's right, he can't as he had his head caved in with a broom handle. There's actually a serial killer called the broomstick killer. If this was an industrial broom and it was a broom stick or even worse a "broom handle" (which some accounts have said it is) you could crush bones and easily knock someone unconscious.

Dahmer was ambushed in a confined area. I've studied filipino stick fighting arts for 17 years. I've also fought at Dog Brothers gatherings. But I'll let this guy explain to you why sticks just aren't that lethal.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AdruIi-Ff8[/YOUTUBE]

In case you don't want to watch it some of the highlights are the fact that blunt instruments don't even warrant their own category in death stats. Sticks are grouped with "other" which could be anything from coffee mugs, baseball bats to crowbars. Watch his video of the suspect being beaten by the cops. Notice that he isn't even trying to harm them yet can withstand a long beating. Sure a blunt object striking the head can be harmful but virtually everyone if confronted by a attacker with a stick will shield their head with hands and arms. Broom sticks are just not that lethal. Especially not to multiple cops.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

 

[Nexus]

I stand corrected because the man I referenced was talking about weapons in self defense hence his criticisms of stick fighting training. However I noticed by your stats blunt objects was always lower than bare hands by about 33%. Using your logic police would be more justified in shooting weaponless resisters. And we still don't know how many of those blunt objects are tire irons etc and not brooms with aluminum tips. Considering edged weapons kill three times as many people and guns tens times as many as unspecified blunt objects I stand by my original statement that broomsticks just aren't that lethal.

 

[laughing dog]

No.

Congratulations. A short understandable and blather free reply on the topic. And, still wrong.

 

[Godless Raven]

I stand corrected because the man I referenced was talking about weapons in self defense hence his criticisms of stick fighting training. However I noticed by your stats blunt objects was always lower than bare hands by about 33%. Using your logic police would be more justified in shooting weaponless resisters. And we still don't know how many of those blunt objects are tire irons etc and not brooms with aluminum tips. Considering edged weapons kill three times as many people and guns tens times as many as unspecified blunt objects I stand by my original statement that broomsticks just aren't that lethal.

Using my logic? That's funny! You apparently believe that your personal experience using Eskrima sticks is evidence for your point. 17 years? And you still couldn't kill someone with them? I think you got ripped off whatever you paid for your lessons. I also think it's funny that you would in one post blow off Jeffery Dalhmer being killed with a similar weapon because it's in a confined space and then post a video of another person surviving an extended beating....in a confined space. At least try to be fucking consistent.

You're joking with the hand fighting nonsense you've posted right? More humans die from bare hands than weapons because everybody has fucking bare hands and not everybody has access to blunt weapons when they kill a mother fucker. And no, I never insinuated or said anything that patently fucking stupid. Those were your words...and your "logic". Probably the worst attempt at a straw man I've seen on this board in a long time.

You were wrong about blunt object deaths not being a statistic worth keeping stats on, all the rest of this is drivel to excuse it.

All three of your arguments have been pathetic. Attacking the cops without having any clue if lethal force was required. Insinuating race had something to do with it when there is zero evidence at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKoCuV2DoQI[/YOUTUBE]



This on the other hand....wow...just wow. There's evidence in this case that these police could have controlled this person and the officer that shot him should have to face a criminal trial. That was awful.

- - - Updated - - -

No.

Congratulations. A short understandable and blather free reply on the topic. And, still wrong.

No.

 

[Nexus]

And you still couldn't kill someone with them? I think you got ripped off whatever you paid for your lessons. I also think it's funny that you would in one post blow off Jeffery Dalhmer being killed with a similar weapon because it's in a confined space and then post a video of another person surviving an extended beating....in a confined space. At least try to be fucking consistent.

No I couldn't kill a single cop with a broom when his buddies are around. And neither could anyone else. And I said Dalhmer was ambushed. That was the key aspect of his demise the confined space just meant he couldn't escape anywhere. I have never denied a broom could be deadly I just said it isn't that lethal. And the number of cops killed by brooms shows this.

All three of your arguments have been pathetic. Attacking the cops without having any clue if lethal force was required. Insinuating race had something to do with it when there is zero evidence at this point.

Now I know you haven't been paying attention and probably didn't watch the video because I'm the last person on this board to play the race card.

 

[Godless Raven]

No I couldn't kill a single cop with a broom when his buddies are around. And neither could anyone else. And I said Dalhmer was ambushed. That was the key aspect of his demise the confined space just meant he couldn't escape anywhere. I have never denied a broom could be deadly I just said it isn't that lethal. And the number of cops killed by brooms shows this.

All three of your arguments have been pathetic. Attacking the cops without having any clue if lethal force was required. Insinuating race had something to do with it when there is zero evidence at this point.

Now I know you haven't been paying attention and probably didn't watch the video because I'm the last person on this board to play the race card.

You say you can't kill someone with a broom handle. To conflate that to infer NOBODY could is just fucking ridiculous and laughable. I could kill someone with my cell phone if I was really intent on doing it. And when you have someone who is either so high or so crazy that they can't be tazed (same thing for pepper spray, rubber bullets) then you are dealing with an entirely different beast. I'm still curious as to why you wasted 17 years of your life practicing something you knew was ineffective.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp0g_j6mI6g[/YOUTUBE]

I wonder how this police officer killed a man with 7 strikes from his baton. I mean, it's just a blunt object and we know that because you can't kill anyone with one, that means nobody can...unless they ambush them....because hey, it's not possible to discombobulate someone so they are unable to defend themselves...everyone knows they are harmless.

I was addressing the last part to all three of you (meaning you, dog and crispy). I just looked at the grammar I used and realized it sounded like I meant all three of YOUR arguments. I meant the three of you have had pathetic arguments on this thread.

I did not mean to imply you jumped all over the race thing. I should have put that in a separate post, and I apologize for causing the confusion.

Back to your post...do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to say broom handles aren't lethal and the evidence is police not being killed by them "shows this"? Police do not generally get poisoned, drowned or a whole host of other ways someone could very much be dead. Are we making our way through ALL of the logical fallacies on this thread as some sort of personal Bucket List you are trying to complete?