How a broomstick-swinging, mentally ill man ended up shot dead by police

[Loren Pechtel]

They did taze him. Twice. And he was so enraged and fucking crazy, it did nothing. Not just officers, witnesses saw them try to taze him and he apparently continued assaulting officers.

While you can resist the pain you can't resist the neural jamming. If it didn't work it didn't connect in an effective position.

BTW - It's interesting that some people seem to think if a lunatic pulls out a club...then a police officer is inclined to fight them in a duel with an equal weapon.

Yeah--I see it as treating everything as a sporting competition where it needs to be fair.

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My parents lived through a similar situation with my brother about 40 years ago. He was physically abusive and dangerous when he was high. A number of times they locked him out and called the police. A couple of times he had a substantial stick in his hands. Police did not have tasers back then (at least these police didn't). They managed to subdue him without shooting him. My parents live in a residential neighborhood.

Why the difference in outcomes? There are probably many factors. IMO, people back then were far less likely to project the worst possible outcome with the smallest probability as reality. And, the police were less militarized back then. And, of course, it probably helped that my brother is white.

In the old days the most dangerous of the crazies were in mental hospitals, not walking around to be a threat.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

While you can resist the pain you can't resist the neural jamming. If it didn't work it didn't connect in an effective position.

BTW - It's interesting that some people seem to think if a lunatic pulls out a club...then a police officer is inclined to fight them in a duel with an equal weapon.

Yeah--I see it as treating everything as a sporting competition where it needs to be fair.

No one is supposing that officers had no reasonable means of using any force, so that'd be a strawman.

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My parents lived through a similar situation with my brother about 40 years ago. He was physically abusive and dangerous when he was high. A number of times they locked him out and called the police. A couple of times he had a substantial stick in his hands. Police did not have tasers back then (at least these police didn't). They managed to subdue him without shooting him. My parents live in a residential neighborhood.

Why the difference in outcomes? There are probably many factors. IMO, people back then were far less likely to project the worst possible outcome with the smallest probability as reality. And, the police were less militarized back then. And, of course, it probably helped that my brother is white.

In the old days the most dangerous of the crazies were in mental hospitals, not walking around to be a threat.

Actually that means something other than what you are implying. Because if the really dangerous guys were in hospitals, that means the officers weren't trained to deal with a dangerous out of their mind drug abuser... and still managed to get control of the guy without shooting him.

 

[Nexus]

What is this soapboxing about police being militarized? He was shot with a pistol, not a bazooka.

The militarizing of police is as much about their mindset as the hardware they now use. When they view the public as an enemy that needs to be subdued and no longer see themselves as part of a community they are protecting they will choose lethal solutions more often.

I don't know what the best tactical option would have been for this guy but termination can't be the go to choice. A broomstick just isn't that lethal.

 

[laughing dog]

In the old days the most dangerous of the crazies were in mental hospitals, not walking around to be a threat.

1st, the most dangerous of crazies were walking around until they were in a mental hospital. 2nd, the police were confronted with a potentially dangerous person who was armed, and they did not shoot him. So, I am trying to understand why you thought your response was relevant.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In the old days the most dangerous of the crazies were in mental hospitals, not walking around to be a threat.

1st, the most dangerous of crazies were walking around until they were in a mental hospital. 2nd, the police were confronted with a potentially dangerous person who was armed, and they did not shoot him. So, I am trying to understand why you thought your response was relevant.

Well, to be fair, his wife has never subdued a man armed with a broom or an uncontrolable man high on drugs, so he really has little to go on to come up with an opinion.

 

[Godless Raven]

What is this soapboxing about police being militarized? He was shot with a pistol, not a bazooka.

The militarizing of police is as much about their mindset as the hardware they now use. When they view the public as an enemy that needs to be subdued and no longer see themselves as part of a community they are protecting they will choose lethal solutions more often.

I don't know what the best tactical option would have been for this guy but termination can't be the go to choice. A broomstick just isn't that lethal.

Sometimes protecting a community requires subduing a human. Those are not mutually exclusive choices. Our police up here aren't militarized, and I'm fairly confident a mad man assaulting a police officer with a weapon, that couldn't be tazed, would have ended up dead...and it wouldn't have mattered what race they were.

 

[laughing dog]

The militarizing of police is as much about their mindset as the hardware they now use. When they view the public as an enemy that needs to be subdued and no longer see themselves as part of a community they are protecting they will choose lethal solutions more often.

I don't know what the best tactical option would have been for this guy but termination can't be the go to choice. A broomstick just isn't that lethal.

Sometimes protecting a community requires subduing a human. Those are not mutually exclusive choices. Our police up here aren't militarized, and I'm fairly confident a mad man assaulting a police officer with a weapon, that couldn't be tazed, would have ended up dead...and it wouldn't have mattered what race they were.

I didn't realize that in Canada, subdue was a synonym for shoot to kill.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually that means something other than what you are implying. Because if the really dangerous guys were in hospitals, that means the officers weren't trained to deal with a dangerous out of their mind drug abuser... and still managed to get control of the guy without shooting him.

In the old days they encountered the guy once. Occasionally they died in the process.

Now they tend to encounter the cops many times. More incidents per crazy, more chances for them to go bad.

 

[Godless Raven]

Sometimes protecting a community requires subduing a human. Those are not mutually exclusive choices. Our police up here aren't militarized, and I'm fairly confident a mad man assaulting a police officer with a weapon, that couldn't be tazed, would have ended up dead...and it wouldn't have mattered what race they were.

I didn't realize that in Canada, subdue was a synonym for shoot to kill.

Not a synonym...but an unfortunate fact that our police and RCMP have to deal with. I'm glad I don't have to be in those situations, but I'm not going to jump on every officer that ever has to shoot someone without considering their safety and the safety of those they are trying to protect. And yeah...if they end up going against a guy that's lit himself on fire and attacked his mom in the past with a knife on a previous call and they're called to investigate the same violent nutcase, they may have to kill a crazy mother fucker.

 

[laughing dog]

I didn't realize that in Canada, subdue was a synonym for shoot to kill.

Not a synonym...but an unfortunate fact that our police and RCMP have to deal with. I'm glad I don't have to be in those situations, but I'm not going to jump on every officer that ever has to shoot someone without considering their safety and the safety of those they are trying to protect. And yeah...if they end up going against a guy that's lit himself on fire and attacked his mom in the past with a knife on a previous call and they're called to investigate the same violent nutcase, they may have to kill a crazy mother fucker.

Of course they may have to. But it is really beyond belief to think that the only avenue they had available to subdue this person armed with a "lethal" broomstick was to shoot him dead.

 

[crispy]

He didnt attack any people (just the officers). And he was using a broomstick. Not really an imminent threat. Tazing him is a totally fine proportional response - maybe even a good whack with a baton on the leg is in order, if you and your police buddy can't wrestle him, but not shooting.

His mother had to lock him out of their house because she was in fear for her safety. She knows him and how dangerous he is a lot better than you do. He did after all, light himself on fucking fire and then come at her threatening with a knife in the past. He gave one of these officers a wound bad enough to require stitches.

What exactly do you think the word imminent means?

They did taze him. Twice. And he was so enraged and fucking crazy, it did nothing. Not just officers, witnesses saw them try to taze him and he apparently continued assaulting officers.

BTW - It's interesting that some people seem to think if a lunatic pulls out a club...then a police officer is inclined to fight them in a duel with an equal weapon. "What's that a broken broom handle? Let me see if I have anything comparable so we can have a fair battle good man". FFS...they aren't there to see whether they can out club him. They were there because his mother thought he was dangerous enough that she locked him out of the fucking house. Which means he was out on the streets with unsuspecting civilians, looking for someone to fuck up with his weapon. In a case with a lunatic this enraged, where they can't even be taken down by multiple taze attempts, they must be taken down and the threat must be stopped. Why the hell his mom didn't call the mental health facility he just got out of beats the hell out of me...they would have called the police and probably both arrived on scene. But his mom didn't, she called the police freaking out because she thought he was that fucking dangerous.

Its a broomstick - had it been a knife, then shooting can be appripriate, as one single stab can kill you. With a broomstick he's have to be a fucking ninja to do the same amount of damage, which means shooting is not a proportional response.

 

[Derec]

Don't fool yourselves - had they subdued the perp physically there'd still be people blaming them for "brutality". Just look at Rodney King - I am pretty sure the cops would have been in less trouble had they just shot his ass.
So maybe these cops learned a lesson from LA Riots.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Its a broomstick - had it been a knife, then shooting can be appripriate, as one single stab can kill you. With a broomstick he's have to be a fucking ninja to do the same amount of damage, which means shooting is not a proportional response.

A club can kill.

And there's no issue of proportionate--once you reach the level of possibly lethal force there are no graduations of it.

 

[laughing dog]

Its a broomstick - had it been a knife, then shooting can be appripriate, as one single stab can kill you. With a broomstick he's have to be a fucking ninja to do the same amount of damage, which means shooting is not a proportional response.

A club can kill.

And there's no issue of proportionate--once you reach the level of possibly lethal force there are no graduations of it.

Using that reasoning, the police can kill anyone with a finger, because a finger can kill.

 

[crispy]

Its a broomstick - had it been a knife, then shooting can be appripriate, as one single stab can kill you. With a broomstick he's have to be a fucking ninja to do the same amount of damage, which means shooting is not a proportional response.

A club can kill.

And there's no issue of proportionate--once you reach the level of possibly lethal force there are no graduations of it.

Basically this means the police using lethal force is always proportionate, as one can kill with their bare hands.

No wonder you always take that stance when the subject comes to police using deadly force.

 

[Godless Raven]

His mother had to lock him out of their house because she was in fear for her safety. She knows him and how dangerous he is a lot better than you do. He did after all, light himself on fucking fire and then come at her threatening with a knife in the past. He gave one of these officers a wound bad enough to require stitches.

What exactly do you think the word imminent means?

They did taze him. Twice. And he was so enraged and fucking crazy, it did nothing. Not just officers, witnesses saw them try to taze him and he apparently continued assaulting officers.

BTW - It's interesting that some people seem to think if a lunatic pulls out a club...then a police officer is inclined to fight them in a duel with an equal weapon. "What's that a broken broom handle? Let me see if I have anything comparable so we can have a fair battle good man". FFS...they aren't there to see whether they can out club him. They were there because his mother thought he was dangerous enough that she locked him out of the fucking house. Which means he was out on the streets with unsuspecting civilians, looking for someone to fuck up with his weapon. In a case with a lunatic this enraged, where they can't even be taken down by multiple taze attempts, they must be taken down and the threat must be stopped. Why the hell his mom didn't call the mental health facility he just got out of beats the hell out of me...they would have called the police and probably both arrived on scene. But his mom didn't, she called the police freaking out because she thought he was that fucking dangerous.

Its a broomstick - had it been a knife, then shooting can be appripriate, as one single stab can kill you. With a broomstick he's have to be a fucking ninja to do the same amount of damage, which means shooting is not a proportional response.

Hyperbole.

It ALL depends on what kind of knife and what kind of broom stick. Yes, some knives can kill you with a single stab (not likely).

Was the broomstick one of these?



If it was...sure, you'd need to be a "ninja" blah blah blah.

What if it were one of these?



Because the police say it had a metal tip, and the flimsy kind don't have metal tips. The heavy wooden industrial type do. And yeah, if you have one of those, especially if it's been broken off or sawed half sized is most definitely a lethal weapon. Of course, there are a hundred different types of broom handle in between. The point is...you do not have access to any more information than the rest of us, but you've decided it wasn't a lethal weapon without knowing whether it was or not.

And those of you that are assuming and asserting it's racial...you've gone and jumped the fucking shark. There has been nothing about this case to insinuate it's racial in any way. From the mother herself the police helped escort her crazy assed son to the looney bin the week before and came to her rescue when the crazy fucker lit himself on fire and tried to attack her with a knife.

Anyone knowing just how crazy and violent this mother fucker was and thinks it's a surprise it ended in his death is not living in the real world. This guy is part of the reason we want police to carry guns. If it's just some asshole yelling and physically assaulting my neighbor (his mother) I could probably go beat him down and hold him until the cops come. Fine. But when you have a crazy mother fucker that lights himself ablaze then grabs a knife to start chasing people, or is going to repeatedly threaten to harm his mother or starts beating people with a weapon...yeah, that mother fucker may just have to be shot.

I'd rather he was in a heavily secured mental hospital, but that's not the reality the police were faced with...so we don't get to pretend it was. They were dealing with a madman who was uncontrollably violent and that couldn't be stopped with two taze attempts.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Actually that means something other than what you are implying. Because if the really dangerous guys were in hospitals, that means the officers weren't trained to deal with a dangerous out of their mind drug abuser... and still managed to get control of the guy without shooting him.

In the old days they encountered the guy once. Occasionally they died in the process.

Thanks for that information Mr. No Citation. Wouldn't care to back it up?

 

[crispy]

Its a broomstick - had it been a knife, then shooting can be appripriate, as one single stab can kill you. With a broomstick he's have to be a fucking ninja to do the same amount of damage, which means shooting is not a proportional response.

Hyperbole.

It ALL depends on what kind of knife and what kind of broom stick. Yes, some knives can kill you with a single stab (not likely).

Was the broomstick one of these?

View attachment 2327

If it was...sure, you'd need to be a "ninja" blah blah blah.

What if it were one of these?

View attachment 2328

Because the police say it had a metal tip, and the flimsy kind don't have metal tips. The heavy wooden industrial type do. And yeah, if you have one of those, especially if it's been broken off or sawed half sized is most definitely a lethal weapon. Of course, there are a hundred different types of broom handle in between. The point is...you do not have access to any more information than the rest of us, but you've decided it wasn't a lethal weapon without knowing whether it was or not.

And those of you that are assuming and asserting it's racial...you've gone and jumped the fucking shark. There has been nothing about this case to insinuate it's racial in any way. From the mother herself the police helped escort her crazy assed son to the looney bin the week before and came to her rescue when the crazy fucker lit himself on fire and tried to attack her with a knife.

Anyone knowing just how crazy and violent this mother fucker was and thinks it's a surprise it ended in his death is not living in the real world. This guy is part of the reason we want police to carry guns. If it's just some asshole yelling and physically assaulting my neighbor (his mother) I could probably go beat him down and hold him until the cops come. Fine. But when you have a crazy mother fucker that lights himself ablaze then grabs a knife to start chasing people, or is going to repeatedly threaten to harm his mother or starts beating people with a weapon...yeah, that mother fucker may just have to be shot.

I'd rather he was in a heavily secured mental hospital, but that's not the reality the police were faced with...so we don't get to pretend it was. They were dealing with a madman who was uncontrollably violent and that couldn't be stopped with two taze attempts.

You're calling it a hyperbole, when you talk about how the broomstick can be fashioned into a spear, Hah! You've got it the wrong way, we've been told its a broomstick, its YOU who assume its a lethal weapon. Sure, a broomstick can be fashioned into a spear, but do you REALLY think it was, or are you just keeping this option open, so you can claim its a lethal weapon to justify the police's excessive force?

From what I've bolded it seems to me you are more concerned with him being a bad guy, and that ridding the world of him will make it a better place, rather than being concerned with the police using excessive force.

 

[Godless Raven]

No....none of that nonsense. I'm saying the police say it's the type with a metal tip. They didn't say he was swinging a broom, they said he was swinging a broomstick, which implies it was disconnected. The metal tip is on the end that screws the handle on. In order for him to hit someone with the metal tip, it would have to be disconnected.

Nobody said anything about a spear, now you're just being goofy.

You are the one claiming there was excessive force, not me. I'm saying you are asserting it without any evidence. I'm saying those of you that are insinuating or straight out saying it was racial motivated are doing so without any evidence.

From what you put in bold you apparently cannot read and comprehend simple concepts, or...you are intentionally twisting my words around. If these are your best excuse for "arguments", you've got nothing worth discussing.

 

[crispy]

No....none of that nonsense. I'm saying the police say it's the type with a metal tip. They didn't say he was swinging a broom, they said he was swinging a broomstick, which implies it was disconnected. The metal tip is on the end that screws the handle on. In order for him to hit someone with the metal tip, it would have to be disconnected.

Nobody said anything about a spear, now you're just being goofy.

You are the one claiming there was excessive force, not me. I'm saying you are asserting it without any evidence. I'm saying those of you that are insinuating or straight out saying it was racial motivated are doing so without any evidence.

From what you put in bold you apparently cannot read and comprehend simple concepts, or...you are intentionally twisting my words around. If these are your best excuse for "arguments", you've got nothing worth discussing.

Well, you said "especially if it's been broken off or sawed half sized is most...", i took that to mean pointy like a spear.

But we actually do know they used excessive force for gods sake! They shot him after he ran! That is, at least in my country, considered excessive force as the guy is not an immidiate threat to anyone, and a policeman would probably be procecuted afterwards if he shot him.