Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, like Black folks in America, ain’t divided by nature, they’ve been split by pressure. Outside forces made it that way. Just like Europe got countries with shared roots, Germany and Austria, Spain and Portugal, split by war, politics, and colonizers. Same blood, same memory, same struggle. They ain’t really divided, just holding convictions from different angles, some more extreme, yeah, but all from the same bucket. But white supremacists won’t see that. They don’t want to. Especially not the ones carrying a white supremacist torch 'cause their love for a Jewish wife is being used as a crusade with no real skin in the game.

Edit: I take the word 'love' back, clearly it means different things to different people. Let’s just call it what it is: a wife who’s fine with her husband having Girl Scout rope partners.

But the blacks of America don't have a predominantly black supremacy ideology and are willing to go to any lengths to terrorise whites into submission.

America is not surrounded by black nations with the same black supremacy ideology. Luckily those surrounding countries leaders mostly pays lip service to the ideology. But they still share it.

Its funny that you bring in the "white supremacy" talk about the only democratic and liberal country in the Middle-East.

What you call "white supremacy" I call "fighting to be able to exist att all".

Considering that islamofascism is so prevalent in the middle east I think its in exceptionally bad taste to allude to any supremacist tendencys among Israelis or their supporters. Its victim blaming imho

You’re out of your depth, Zoidberg , both on Black history and Israel. First of all, Black Americans absolutely lived under a hostile environment dominated by a white supremacist system , one that didn’t just 'discriminate,' but systematically enslaved, segregated, murdered, and erased them for generations. They were surrounded by institutions, policies, and people who saw their very existence as a threat , and still, they endured, organized, and fought back. Not to terrorize, but to survive and demand basic dignity (This is what the State of Israel is doing now, not that white supremist shit you're peddling).

Which completely does not address his point about being surrounded by those who want to destroy Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No it isn't. My stance is built on harm reduction. Whatever leads to the least amount of pain and misery for most people is what we should do.

You supported siege tactics for the release of the remaining Israeli hostages. That is not remotely compatible with your "whatever leads to the least amount of pain and misery for most people" claim.

If we have zero tolerance for hostage taking we remove the incentives for taking hostages.

Israel is now in the process of making Palestinians think that its not worth it. And supporting Hamas is not worth it

I agree. Lets hope it works. However not all Palestinians need to be made to think this. Some already do.

Edit: Just looking into the west bank tells you this.

Looking into what?

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Palestinians in the West Bank do recognize Israel as a state, and many acknowledge its right to self-defense. But let me guess: those Palestinians don’t fit in your narrative, do they? Because acknowledging them would disrupt your white supremacist orgy.

Edit: Let me help educate your dumb white supremacist ass. Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have deep family and community ties. Denying that is like saying young Black men committing crimes in Black neighborhoods have no connection to the broader Black community they live in. Despite the physical and political divide, with Gaza under Hamas and the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority, many families span both regions. These are not two separate peoples. They are one nation separated by checkpoints and politics.

Still makes no sense. What are we supposed to look at in the West Bank?

The same Pallywood tactics we see in Gaza? An awful lot of it comes down to the Palestinians saying "he hit me back", but being quiet about the "back" part.

The continuation of the pay for slay, attempts to pretend it's not government policy but it's still the government money.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You keep trying to frame this entire conflict around "Islamic supremacy", as if Palestinian resistance to occupation and apartheid is just a cover for religious dominance. That’s not historical nuance, that’s a talking point ripped straight from the playbook of nationalist propaganda.

It is religious, it always has been.

Israel is the abused wife that escaped, the slave that escaped. You talk about black history, you should know what would happen the escaped slave.

You claim “fear of Jewish power” is what caused the Nakba? No. The Nakba wasn’t driven by some irrational Muslim paranoia, it was driven by the systematic displacement of over 700,000 Palestinians, often through forced expulsions, village demolitions, and massacres like Deir Yassin. That's documented by both Israeli historians and international scholars. You can gaslight the word “ethnic cleansing” all you want, but facts don’t become fiction because you’re uncomfortable with the terminology.

The "Nakba" is to a very large part people who left of their own accord at Arab behest. Not Jewish. But they bet on the losing horse and then doubled down by refusing to swear to be peaceful.

And I've recently posted the truth about Deir Yassin, try reading it. People in civilian attire shot at the Jewish forces. People in female civilian attire shot at the Jewish forces. And of course the soldiers fired at those who looked like those who were shooting at them--in close quarters combat you don't carefully take stock of what the enemy is doing. Enemy attire, shoot. And one soldier killed one family. Not the horrendous massacre it's played out to be.

Then you say Palestinians who “didn’t run” were treated with respect, completely ignoring decades of military law, land confiscation, discriminatory zoning, and unequal rights faced by Palestinian citizens of Israel. If that’s your bar for “respect,” it’s telling.

And you need to demonstrate that before using it as evidence.

And no, I didn’t “forget” that Jews were expelled from Arab countries. But unlike you, I don’t weaponize one trauma to justify another. That’s like saying Jim Crow laws were okay because slavery existed somewhere else.

You're weaponizing the false expulsion of the Palestinians, yet you object to weaponizing the very real expulsion of the Jews????

You keep painting Palestinians as the aggressors driven by supremacy, while stripping every one of their grievances down to irrational hate. That’s not analysis, it’s projection. And ironically, it's the exact same logic white supremacists use to explain Black resistance in America: “They hate us because of who we are.” You don’t see that? I do.

It's not projection--who do you think he wants to oppress??

And the Palestinians are pawns. Their backers are the aggressors.

You keep trying to deflect criticism of systemic oppression by saying, “Well, they’re all racist over there.” that’s a cop-out.

Yes, racism exists in Palestinian communities. Yes, the Middle East is deeply fractured. But pointing that out doesn’t justify state-level displacement, military occupation, or apartheid policies. That’s like saying, “Jim Crow wasn’t so bad because Black communities had internal issues too.”

Not at all like it. You know what place over there is worse off? Yemen. Shia/Sunni battleground. The countries around Israel know that if they don't poke Israel and they don't let terrorists poke from their territory that they'll be ok.

Your argument boils down to: Everyone’s racist, so no one’s responsible. But when Palestinians react violently to being occupied, suddenly intent matters, and you project onto the entire religion and ethnicity supremacism. That’s inconsistency.

If we used your logic and applied it equally, we’d be calling out Zionist supremacy too, but I suspect that’s where your “mind-bending nuance” ends.

There are Israeli loons we object to. It's just they don't have nearly the power that the terrorist loons have. And note that by ensuring a continual state of war you give Israel no reason to curtail the actions of the settlers. You're not going to solve that problem without solving the bigger war first.

he difference is that white supremacists are just talking shit. White supremacists are paranoid. Their fears are based on fantasies.

Do you seriously think the dangers facing Israel are imaginary?

Ah, I see, so when white supremacists make sweeping generalizations based on fear, it's “paranoia.” But when you do it about Palestinians or Muslims, it’s “realism.” Got it.

The difference, according to you, is that their imagined threat justifies nothing… but your perceived threat justifies checkpoints, blockades, mass arrests, home demolitions, civilian casualties, and indefinite military occupation?

Israel stops fighting, they die. Genocide.
Hamas stops fighting, peace. No genocide.

They should have thought about that before doing the 7/10 attack. Hamas is the government of Gaza. The fact that the Gazans didn't vote about it is neither here nor there.

Good luck digging yourself out of that hole.

Ah, so now we're back to collective punishment as moral high ground?

By your logic, if a non-elected government commits an atrocity, every civilian under their control deserves the fallout, regardless of whether they supported it, voted for it, or were even old enough to understand it. That’s the hole you're proudly standing in, not me.

Let’s flip it: If the U.S. government commits a war crime, should every American, regardless of age, political stance, or ability to vote, be fair game for retribution? Of course not. That would be absurd. That would be terrorism. But for Gaza? Suddenly the rules change.

No, the rules are the same. The citizens of a country might suffer if their country goes to war.

And here’s the kicker: You claim Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza and use that to justify the civilian suffering, but earlier you were tripping over yourself to separate Israeli settlers from the Israeli state, claiming the government can't control them.

It's not that they can't. It's that they have no reason to spend the political will to control them. You want to solve the settler problem, you have to create a world where solving the problem provides a substantial benefit to Israel. As it stands, it provides no benefit whatsoever.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And those Black folks… generally speaking… are lucky to be ruled by whites.

Why? Because they’re safer, richer, and better off than anywhere else in the world. And deep down, they know it. Living in a white-majority country gives them opportunities they wouldn't have elsewhere. But they can’t say that publicly, they’re forced to parrot that anti-white activist narrative.

What's important is how well the government is run. Life in Israel is a lot better than life in any of it's neighbors. It's not about skin.

Black culture? It’s all performance. They say one thing and do another.

Disagree. But it certainly is true to some extent: Back in 1982 we did the Johannesburg to London overland, although we had to bail in Nigeria because of time.

The first day out, unpack everything, check and recheck for those dreaded words "Product of South Africa". Must be cut off or completely blacked out with a sharpie. That's because customs people would seize such items. But labels in Afrikaans, no problem. Never mind that it's a language that's only in South Africa. Appearance, not reality. And they would deny you if your passport had South African stamps--but the stamps from the land crossings going into and out of South Africa did not matter. And it's not like the customs people didn't know our route. And everywhere else in the world the most valuable black market currency was the US$. In Africa, it was the South African Rand.

Theater.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ha ha. So now I'm the Nazi? Its hard to keep up with your delusions.

That's an interesting take

But the Nazis sided with the Muslims, not the Jews. Schizophrenia, perhaps?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lt me address this specifically. That really depends on what you mean by 'Muslim terrorists.' If you’re talking about Hamas, sure, I'm all for Isreal whiping them off the face of the earth. But if you’re lumping in children who weren’t even alive when Hamas took control and have lived under its rule ever since, then no. That’s where I draw the line. But hey, you do you, Tomc.

You say to wipe them off the face of the Earth, but you prohibit anything less than perfection in doing so.

For the ten-thousandth time, Israel isn’t the one making the statements you keep spouting, you know, the ones that lump all civilians in as enemy combatants. So stop putting words in Israel’s mouth to justify your own bullshit.

It's Hamas that considers all Jews enemy combatants.

None of us are saying that civilians are enemy combatants--we are saying that just because someone has some indication that they are civilian is not proof they are. And we recognize that human shield deaths are on the side that used the human shields.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fun anecdote. In 2010 we made friends with a black South African businessesman staying at the same Mumbai hotel. He wanted Apartheid back. He said he did better business then. He thought the blacks had ruined South Africa.

Exactly. South Africa traded fairly benign oppression for very evil oppression, the fact that it's now by people of the same skin color confers no benefit. HIV denial was the government position for quite some time after the drugs came out. And I stumbled on this horror while looking for data:

Baby Rape in South Africa | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

My western ideologicaly bathed brain almost had a seizure trying to figure out how to continue that conversation the rest of the dinner.

That certainly would be awkward but from the start I knew the new government would be worse than the old (long battle to overthrow the local government always produces a bad outcome) so I don't have an ideological problem with it.

Reality rarely fits nicely into simplistic western political narratives. Its always more complicated on the ground.

Exactly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I doubt anyone understands and agrees with your distinctions.

Sadly, lots of Americans do agree.
Understand is a bit different.

But yeah, there are a bunch of Islamic supremacy apologists in this country, he is not unique.
Tom

Can you actually elaborate on that? I’d love to know how you concluded that I’m an apologist for Islamic supremacy. You can’t, because it’s a lie. Just say you don’t like being challenged and move on.

The problem is that you do exactly what the Islamists want you to do. I believe you have been duped, Z doesn't think it's possible you're blind to it, I don't know where TomC stands on that.

 

[Gospel]

I doubt anyone understands and agrees with your distinctions.

Sadly, lots of Americans do agree.
Understand is a bit different.

But yeah, there are a bunch of Islamic supremacy apologists in this country, he is not unique.
Tom

Can you actually elaborate on that? I’d love to know how you concluded that I’m an apologist for Islamic supremacy. You can’t, because it’s a lie. Just say you don’t like being challenged and move on.

The problem is that you do exactly what the Islamists want you to do. I believe you have been duped, Z doesn't think it's possible you're blind to it, I don't know where TomC stands on that.

So the Islamists want me to recognize Israel and support its efforts to ensure security by removing Hamas from Gaza? That’s... interesting.

 

[Gospel]

You say to wipe them off the face of the Earth, but you prohibit anything less than perfection in doing so.

No, you’re claiming that I demand perfection, but that’s pure fiction you made up. Or better yet, it's just an emotional reaction to reading words written by brown folks, a tendency to interpret everything in the most negative light possible. I’m not the only forum user expressing the opinion that civilian safety is a concern (the state of Israel does it too btw), yet you, DrZoidberg, and TomC seem to single me out with this 'Hamas puppet' nonsense. Wonder why.

None of us are saying that civilians are enemy combatants--we are saying that just because someone has some indication that they are civilian is not proof they are. And we recognize that human shield deaths are on the side that used the human shields.

If that’s the case, then I agree. What I’ve been pushing back on is the rhetoric that lumps all Palestinians in with Hamas, whether it’s blaming them for an election most of them weren’t even alive to vote in, or ignoring the fact that Hamas has maintained power largely through force.

The real issue here, talking to all three of you, is that no matter what I say, you’ll just keep repeating the same nonsense. So I’m done. You don’t have to trouble yourselves with the opinions of this brown person anymore.

 

[ZiprHead]

yet you, DrZoidberg, and TomC seem to single me out with this 'Hamas puppet' nonsense. Wonder why.

Disagree. They do it to us all.

 

[Gospel]

yet you, DrZoidberg, and TomC seem to single me out with this 'Hamas puppet' nonsense. Wonder why.

Disagree. They do it to us all.

I get why it might feel that way, your views often line up with mine, so when I’m targeted, you end up getting caught in the crossfire by association. And yeah, you’ve spoken up in my defense, but that’s just it, it’s in my defense. To be fair, I haven’t seen them directly label you a Hamas propagandist.

 

[Gospel]

And those Black folks… generally speaking… are lucky to be ruled by whites.

Why? Because they’re safer, richer, and better off than anywhere else in the world. And deep down, they know it. Living in a white-majority country gives them opportunities they wouldn't have elsewhere. But they can’t say that publicly, they’re forced to parrot that anti-white activist narrative.

What's important is how well the government is run. Life in Israel is a lot better than life in any of it's neighbors. It's not about skin.

Black culture? It’s all performance. They say one thing and do another.

Disagree. But it certainly is true to some extent: Back in 1982 we did the Johannesburg to London overland, although we had to bail in Nigeria because of time.

The first day out, unpack everything, check and recheck for those dreaded words "Product of South Africa". Must be cut off or completely blacked out with a sharpie. That's because customs people would seize such items. But labels in Afrikaans, no problem. Never mind that it's a language that's only in South Africa. Appearance, not reality. And they would deny you if your passport had South African stamps--but the stamps from the land crossings going into and out of South Africa did not matter. And it's not like the customs people didn't know our route. And everywhere else in the world the most valuable black market currency was the US$. In Africa, it was the South African Rand.

Theater.

You realize you're reacting to a reverse Uno card, right? Those weren’t even my opinions, bro.

 

[TomC]

yet you, DrZoidberg, and TomC seem to single me out with this 'Hamas puppet' nonsense. Wonder why.

Disagree. They do it to us all.

We commonly disagree with extreme vitriol.
But nobody in this hot button thread has been as vitriolic and then played the race card like Gospel.
Tom

 

[Tammuz]

Israel’s One-State Reality

Reading this article really changed my perception of the conflict. It retrospect it shouldn't have, because it was obvious all along, I was just too stupid to notice.

I would like for those here more supportive of Israel to read it and comment on it.

 

[Gospel]

yet you, DrZoidberg, and TomC seem to single me out with this 'Hamas puppet' nonsense. Wonder why.

Disagree. They do it to us all.

We commonly disagree with extreme vitriol.
But nobody in this hot button thread has been as vitriolic and then played the race card like Gospel.
Tom

It's not a card. It's a shoe that fits.

 

[Gospel]

Israel’s One-State Reality

Reading this article really changed my perception of the conflict. It retrospect it shouldn't have, because it was obvious all along, I was just too stupid to notice.

I would like for those here more supportive of Israel to read it and comment on it.

I think that’s a solid and thought-provoking article. Unfortunately, I suspect many will dismiss it by focusing on perceived bias rather than engaging with the core facts it presents. I used to support the two-state solution as the most realistic and just outcome. But looking at the current situation, expanding settlements, political fragmentation among Palestinians, rising extremism on both sides, and the repeated collapse of meaningful negotiations , it’s becoming harder to see that path as viable anymore.

That’s not solely the fault of one side; it’s the result of a long chain of missteps, bad-faith actions, and missed opportunities by multiple actors , Israeli, Palestinian, regional, and international. The article does a decent job confronting that reality.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't like to get into these arguments because I don't think they accomplish a thing, but I will gift an article written by an Israeli who, not only served in the IDF, but is an expert on genocide. I think he knows a lot more than those of you who refuse to believe that Israel's actions equate with genocide and I hope that some of you will at least read what he has to say and what he bases his opinion on. I'm quoting just a small portion of the article where this scholar makes his case.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/15/...e_code=1.XU8.9nrM.-3apG_Scuf1a&smid=url-share

A month after the Hamas attack on Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, I believed there was evidence that the Israeli military had committed war crimes and potentially crimes against humanity in its counterattack on Gaza. But contrary to the cries of Israel’s fiercest critics, the evidence did not seem to me to rise to the crime of genocide.

By May 2024, the Israel Defense Forces had ordered about one million Palestinians sheltering in Rafah — the southernmost and last remaining relatively undamaged city of the Gaza Strip — to move to the beach area of the Mawasi, where there was little to no shelter. The army then proceeded to destroy much of Rafah, a feat mostly accomplished by August.

At that point it appeared no longer possible to deny that the pattern of I.D.F. operations was consistent with the statements denoting genocidal intent made by Israeli leaders in the days after the Hamas attack. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had promised that the enemy would pay a “huge price” for the attack and that the I.D.F. would turn parts of Gaza, where Hamas was operating, “into rubble,” and he called on “the residents of Gaza” to “leave now because we will operate forcefully everywhere.”

Mr. Netanyahu had urged his citizens to remember “what Amalek did to you,” a quote many interpreted as a reference to the demand in a biblical passage calling for the Israelites to “kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings” of their ancient enemy. Government and military officials said they were fighting “human animals” and, later, called for “total annihilation.” Nissim Vaturi, the deputy speaker of Parliament, said on X that Israel’s task must be “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israel’s actions could be understood only as the implementation of the expressed intent to make the Gaza Strip uninhabitable for its Palestinian population. I believe the goal was — and remains today — to force the population to leave the Strip altogether or, considering that it has nowhere to go, to debilitate the enclave through bombings and severe deprivation of food, clean water, sanitation and medical aid to such an extent that it is impossible for Palestinians in Gaza to maintain or reconstitute their existence as a group.

My inescapable conclusion has become that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Having grown up in a Zionist home, lived the first half of my life in Israel, served in the I.D.F. as a soldier and officer and spent most of my career researching and writing on war crimes and the Holocaust, this was a painful conclusion to reach, and one that I resisted as long as I could. But I have been teaching classes on genocide for a quarter of a century. I can recognize one when I see one.

This is not just my conclusion. A growing number of experts in genocide studies and international law have concluded that Israel’s actions in Gaza can only be defined as genocide. So has Francesca Albanese, the U.N. special rapporteur for the West Bank and Gaza, and Amnesty International. South Africa has brought a genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice.
Image

 

[TomC]

Israel’s One-State Reality

Reading this article really changed my perception of the conflict. It retrospect it shouldn't have, because it was obvious all along, I was just too stupid to notice.

I would like for those here more supportive of Israel to read it and comment on it.

I only had to get as far as:

"a Greater Israel defined not just as a Jewish state but one in which the law enshrines Jewish supremacy over all Palestinians who remain there."
to stop caring that it's behind a paywall.

There's plenty of anti-Jewish bigotry in the UN, Western media, and this thread to be more than sufficient.
Tom

 

[Tammuz]

Israel’s One-State Reality

Reading this article really changed my perception of the conflict. It retrospect it shouldn't have, because it was obvious all along, I was just too stupid to notice.

I would like for those here more supportive of Israel to read it and comment on it.

I only had to get as far as:

"a Greater Israel defined not just as a Jewish state but one in which the law enshrines Jewish supremacy over all Palestinians who remain there."
to stop caring that it's behind a paywall.

There's plenty of anti-Jewish bigotry in the UN, Western media, and this thread to be more than sufficient.
Tom

Really? You think the article is antisemitic?