Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

I see zero benefit in traumatizing or worse law abiding persons. I am as aware as you are of the potential for harm if someone accesses female only spaces through deception, in this case feigning being trans, for nefarious reasons

I’m aware of the potential for serious emotional trauma for females confronted by a male appearing body in a female only space, particularly those who have experienced sexual abuse or assault or rape.

I’m not trans and my actual in person experience with trans individuals is limited but enough that I recognize the sincerity and the harm in not being recognized for who they are. Don’t we all want to be seen? And accepted?

I don't think you and I are going to ever come to an agreement on this. I feel where you're coming from, and I respect your view. But I also strongly disagree with your entire premise.

I don't see any benefit in traumatizing or harming law abiding people either. Where I disagree with you is that I also don't see any benefit to women by allowing males into female-only spaces in order to avoid traumatizing males. Loren and TomC and Jimmy and Poli and Bomb#20 are all males of the human species. I don't want any of them to be traumatized or harmed in any way... but women's intimate spaces aren't shields for vulnerable men. And I don't think that excluding males from female single-sex spaces is traumatizing. I don't think that ANY males should have a legal right to access female spaces because they are not female.

I'm perfectly happy to recognize a transgender person as being transgender. But that still doesn't make them the opposite sex. A transwoman is a male of the human species, and nothing can actually change that. Sincerity about their gender identity is irrelevant - that's not a heartless or cruel thing to say, there's no ill will involved. It's simply reality.

It's entirely and completely possible for me to accept a transwoman as a transwoman without me having to pretend that they are female. I cannot recognize them as female, because they are not female.

We do disagree. I believe that trans women are women and trans men are men and need to be respected as such.

I do struggle a bit where sports are concerned because I am old enough to remember the days before Title IX and see the continuing inequalities between funding and other support for female vs male teams. But so far, most female players do not see a problem and don’t feel they are being crowded out. I defer to their judgement.

Why do you believe trans women are women, given the obvious fact they are male?

In what sense can an adult male be considered a woman?

Why?

 

[Toni]

I see zero benefit in traumatizing or worse law abiding persons. I am as aware as you are of the potential for harm if someone accesses female only spaces through deception, in this case feigning being trans, for nefarious reasons

I’m aware of the potential for serious emotional trauma for females confronted by a male appearing body in a female only space, particularly those who have experienced sexual abuse or assault or rape.

I’m not trans and my actual in person experience with trans individuals is limited but enough that I recognize the sincerity and the harm in not being recognized for who they are. Don’t we all want to be seen? And accepted?

I don't think you and I are going to ever come to an agreement on this. I feel where you're coming from, and I respect your view. But I also strongly disagree with your entire premise.

I don't see any benefit in traumatizing or harming law abiding people either. Where I disagree with you is that I also don't see any benefit to women by allowing males into female-only spaces in order to avoid traumatizing males. Loren and TomC and Jimmy and Poli and Bomb#20 are all males of the human species. I don't want any of them to be traumatized or harmed in any way... but women's intimate spaces aren't shields for vulnerable men. And I don't think that excluding males from female single-sex spaces is traumatizing. I don't think that ANY males should have a legal right to access female spaces because they are not female.

I'm perfectly happy to recognize a transgender person as being transgender. But that still doesn't make them the opposite sex. A transwoman is a male of the human species, and nothing can actually change that. Sincerity about their gender identity is irrelevant - that's not a heartless or cruel thing to say, there's no ill will involved. It's simply reality.

It's entirely and completely possible for me to accept a transwoman as a transwoman without me having to pretend that they are female. I cannot recognize them as female, because they are not female.

We do disagree. I believe that trans women are women and trans men are men and need to be respected as such.

I do struggle a bit where sports are concerned because I am old enough to remember the days before Title IX and see the continuing inequalities between funding and other support for female vs male teams. But so far, most female players do not see a problem and don’t feel they are being crowded out. I defer to their judgement.

Why do you believe trans women are women, given the obvious fact they are male?

In what sense can an adult male be considered a woman?

Why?

The genetics have been explaining Ned multiple times elsewhere in this thread.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In what sense can an adult male be considered a woman?

Why?

This is actually a great question and shouldn't be asked sarcastically. Especially the "why" part. I don't think the answer is available yet and won't be for a while

But before we leave the dark ages when it comes to understanding of our consciousness, we can at least accept that this does actually exist. Be humane about it. And try to determine how to manage it, so that all parties involved are left with their rights and dignity.

 

[Emily Lake]

We do disagree. I believe that trans women are women and trans men are men and need to be respected as such.

Why do you believe this, Toni? What objectively observable characteristic do transwomen share in common with female human beings that they DO NOT share in common with male human beings?

I do struggle a bit where sports are concerned because I am old enough to remember the days before Title IX and see the continuing inequalities between funding and other support for female vs male teams. But so far, most female players do not see a problem and don’t feel they are being crowded out. I defer to their judgement.

That's entirely untrue. Some female players here and there don't have a problem, but a huge amount absolutely object to males participating in their sports.

 

[Emily Lake]

The genetics have been explaining Ned multiple times elsewhere in this thread.

No they haven't. Seriously, what the hell genetics do you have in mind that somehow makes a karyotypically normal, phenotypically normal, and reproductively normal male somehow a female? Honest to fucking god, on what planet is Eddie Izzard "genetically" a woman?

 

[seanie]

The genetics have been explaining Ned multiple times elsewhere in this thread

That’s nonsense.

What are the genetic differences that differentiate men from trans women?

 

[seanie]

In what sense can an adult male be considered a woman?

Why?

This is actually a great question and shouldn't be asked sarcastically. Especially the "why" part. I don't think the answer is available yet and won't be for a while

But before we leave the dark ages when it comes to understanding of our consciousness, we can at least accept that this does actually exist. Be humane about it. And try to determine how to manage it, so that all parties involved are left with their rights and dignity.

There was no sarcasm.

It’s a simple question.

Why should men who consider themselves women, be considered women by anyone else?

Given they are actually men?

 

[seanie]

And your solution to “manage it” is to let any man who considers himself to be a woman, to access spaces for women only.

Not much concern for the rights and dignity of women there, eh Jimmy?

 

[Toni]

We do disagree. I believe that trans women are women and trans men are men and need to be respected as such.

Why do you believe this, Toni? What objectively observable characteristic do transwomen share in common with female human beings that they DO NOT share in common with male human beings?

I do struggle a bit where sports are concerned because I am old enough to remember the days before Title IX and see the continuing inequalities between funding and other support for female vs male teams. But so far, most female players do not see a problem and don’t feel they are being crowded out. I defer to their judgement.

That's entirely untrue. Some female players here and there don't have a problem, but a huge amount absolutely object to males participating in their sports.

I have read the opposite re: those girls/women who support abd those who do not.

Like with women only spaces, I am not certain what the correct solution actually is.

 

[seanie]

So now we have a new claim, to file alongside all the bullshit about clownfish, platypuses, DSD conditions, etc.

There’s a genetic difference between men and trans women.

Deluge me with the peer reviewed evidence.

 

[Toni]

The genetics have been explaining Ned multiple times elsewhere in this thread.

No they haven't. Seriously, what the hell genetics do you have in mind that somehow makes a karyotypically normal, phenotypically normal, and reproductively normal male somehow a female? Honest to fucking god, on what planet is Eddie Izzard "genetically" a woman?

Genetics is not confined to chromosomes. The sry gene is crucial in determining maleness. If it has migrated to another part of a chromosome, this function does not occur properly.

 

[seanie]

I have read the opposite re: those girls/women who support abd those who do not.

Like with women only spaces, I am not certain what the correct solution actually is.

Start from first principles.

Why do we have sex segregated spaces?

What is the point?

 

[laughing dog]

We do disagree. I believe that trans women are women and trans men are men and need to be respected as such.

Why do you believe this, Toni? What objectively observable characteristic do transwomen share in common with female human beings that they DO NOT share in common with male human beings?

I do struggle a bit where sports are concerned because I am old enough to remember the days before Title IX and see the continuing inequalities between funding and other support for female vs male teams. But so far, most female players do not see a problem and don’t feel they are being crowded out. I defer to their judgement.

That's entirely untrue. Some female players here and there don't have a problem, but a huge amount absolutely object to males participating in their sports.

“Huge amount”? Is that a hard science measurement or soft science measurement?

I am unaware of any poll or study results. I’m aware of anecdotes which run the gamut from hardcore antitrans bigots to sore losers to females who they believe are men to people concerned with fairness.

 

[seanie]

There’s polling that suggests the overwhelming majority of female athletes, when asked, want sex testing reintroduced.

Given the repercussions for speaking out publicly, it’s no surprise that current athletes tend to stay quiet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And your solution to “manage it” is to let any man who considers himself to be a woman, to access spaces for women only.

Whose posts are you mistaking mine for, to come to that conclusion?

Not much concern for the rights and dignity of women there, eh Jimmy?

That's quite daft.

 

[laughing dog]

There’s polling that suggests the overwhelming majority of female athletes, when asked, want sex testing reintroduced.

Given the repercussions for speaking out publicly, it’s no surprise that current athletes tend to stay quiet.

Do you have link to the alleged evidence?

 

[seanie]

And again, go back to first principles.

What is the justification for separate male and female sports?

Why is that category separation important?

And why should men who consider themselves women be allowed to participate in a women’s category?

Explain.

 

[seanie]

There’s polling that suggests the overwhelming majority of female athletes, when asked, want sex testing reintroduced.

Given the repercussions for speaking out publicly, it’s no surprise that current athletes tend to stay quiet.

Do you have link to the alleged evidence?

Not to hand, but I can provide.

 

[laughing dog]

There’s polling that suggests the overwhelming majority of female athletes, when asked, want sex testing reintroduced.

Given the repercussions for speaking out publicly, it’s no surprise that current athletes tend to stay quiet.

Do you have link to the alleged evidence?

Not to hand, but I can provide.

Please do at your convenience.

 

[TomC]

This is actually a great question and shouldn't be asked sarcastically. Especially the "why" part. I don't think the answer is available yet and won't be for a while

I think that the main problems here are two things. Sex and gender are two different things. That's one, and it doesn't fit the trans activists ideology.

The one we're talking about here (this post, not the whole thread) is semantics. For all of human history, until very recently, sex and gender were so tightly entwined there was little point to making a distinction between male and man or female and woman. A person's birth sex determined a ton of stuff about their life, including their gender. That's not the case anymore, at least not here in places with resources and secular values. We've got therapy and advanced treatment options. It's become important to make a distinction between sex and gender, at least under a few circumstances. Our language, however, hasn't kept up. It's gotten a bit obsolete. The difference is utterly unimportant in all but a tiny few circumstances, but sometimes it is important. "Male' and "woman" , sometimes, are opposites.
Tom