Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Loren Pechtel]

You say there is no gendered mind but the bad results from attempting to surgically correct the intersexed clearly show there's something upstairs. We don't understand it yet but we can observe the bad outcomes of going against it so it must exist.

We understand some of it just fine. Hormones do affect the brain, after all. And people with disorders of sexual development generally produce and process sex hormones. The occasions where we see surgical alterations of infants with DSDs going wrong are when the doctor didn't bother to find out what the infant's actual sex was in the first place.

None of which has anything at all to do with transgender beliefs. The fact that some well-meaning-but-ultimately-idiotic doctors in the past got it wrong has no bearing on whether or not it's actually plausible (or possible) for a male of the human species, with a completely normal male body type, normal male karyotype, normal male reproductive system, and normal male development is able to somehow magically have a "girl mind".

You are assuming they had some means of finding out. Remember, that era predated a lot of discoveries of the genetics behind various DSDs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seriously, microeconomics is very explanatory, and has a lot of good math behind it to explain the relationships... but could you, with all of your experience and knowledge, actually predict how much a given person is willing to spend on eggs with a straight face? Or even what the prevailing price of eggs will be in three months time?

Observations, absolutely. Explanatory, certainly.

Predictive and falsifiable are an entirely different thing.

You're asking too much.

Can the microeconomist make a reasonably accurate prediction of the market clearing price of eggs. If so, predictive and useful.

Three months down the road isn't even their job as that's controlled by outside factors.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nude where nudity was normal. The allegation was simple nudity, not doing things to others.

Male human getting his dick out in front of non-consenting women, in an area designated for women only.

But sure, keep defending the sex offender with multiple felonies - he changed his ID after all, so no he's totally a woman just like any other women, and any woman who objects to seeing his dick is clearly just a bigot, right?

Look at this situation more carefully.

"Multiple felonies?" That usually earns you quite a while behind bars, yet it does not seem to have done so in this case. That makes me suspect the description is wrong, perhaps felony charges that got pled down to something minor.

And I have never seen details on exactly what acts were involved. Given how society witch-hunts I do not feel I can exclude the basically null case that the prior offenses are the same as the one that got dismissed because of the ID. You're talking about what constitutes science--what does a scientist do with data that includes the null as a possible result?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is made worse by the fact that *some* people who assert to be transwomen are doing so as a means of feeding a paraphilia using women as live action props in their sexual role play. Even if it's not many, they do exist, and that's a problem.

There are a lot more lesbians than trans.

Loren, do you think that homosexuality is a paraphilia?

Huh? The paraphilia you were referring to was using them as props. Why is that exclusive to trans and not lesbians?

Do you think that lesbians use non-consenting women as props in their sexual role play out in public?

I want to know why we should think trans do and lesbians don't--I'm not saying whether the behavior exists in the first place or not. Especially as there are far more lesbians than trans.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do we have any evidence of gender changing? We've tried that with homosexuality, conversion therapy goes very badly.

What do you mean by "gender" in this case?

We absolutely have evidence of people who spent a large portion of their lives living comfortably and successfully in their sexed bodies, with no observable or reported dysphoria or distress... but who later in life identify as trans. Hell, you've got two male human beings in this thread who you have interacted with as years as men, and who now identify as non-men of some unspecified sort.

And you have evidence of no distress how? My SIL is in all probability actually lesbian, but I would be very surprised if she would ever admit that even to herself, let alone to anyone else. So of course there's no distress that's identifiably due to sexuality.

We also have a fair bit of evidence that children who experience dysphoria at the onset of puberty grow out of it on their own about 80% of the time, and usually are simply gay.

And we are not suggesting anything irreversible. I find the data questionable but it doesn't matter if it's true, it doesn't change anything.

And we have an ever-growing number of detransitioners.

And here we do have the data. 80% of detransitions are because of outside pressure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fear of rape: real.
Fear of rape by fake trans in the bathroom: not realistic.

Fear of sexual offending by a male: real
Fear of sexual offending by a male in a bathroom: not realistic

Wrong sets.

Fear of mugging: real.
Fear of being mugged on the local mountaintops? Zero.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It used to be that the few transsexuals who used women's bathrooms had 1) a clinical diagnosis with active psychological treatment, 2) considerable counseling on how to ensure they didn't make actual women uncomfortable, 3) respect and consideration for actual women. It used to be that the clinicians were trusted to weed out transvestites with autogynephilia as well as just plain old nefarious men with bad intentions. It used to be that actual women had the authority to ask any male - even a genuine transsexual - to leave our single-sex spaces, and they would comply with that; if they didn't everyone else on the planet would have our backs. And it used to be that those transsexuals would NEVER have the gall to use changing rooms, showers, and spas where actual women would be exposed to their penises.

That changed, and it changed by coercion and without input or consideration for women at all.

The problem is the path described is something that an awful lot of people can't afford to do.

And the evidence for there actually being a problem is always marginal. We see the same names over and over because that's all the "evidence", and it varies from iffy to conclusively false (the one that unquestionably committed two rapes--but as a male.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I also wrote this as someone who has reacted very badly to what now, as an adult I recognize as PTSD as a result of sexual assault. I was washing dishes, cleaning a family chore. My little sister came up behind me to scare me —the way siblings do but in this instance I was washing a large sharp butcher knife. I whirled around with the knife grasped in my fist—and fortunately realized it was my sister and not the person who assaulted me , usually from behind. I did not stab my sister abd indeed laughed before returning to my task and trying not to cry. PTSD almost caused me to hurt my sister. But I definitely understand the potential for severe harm as a result of being re-traunstized.

PTSD is not necessarily predictable.

And note that PTSD is a reaction to a fear of something that bears some resemblance to the triggering situation(s), but is not an actual threat. PTSD does not warrant removing the false trigger from society. My wife had a terrifying experience with a mouse when she was small, to this day she won't go near one. But she doesn't try to demand that businesses not sell mice. We simply took the long way around when she saw that part of the market was a wet market and there were mice in that part.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't see any benefit in traumatizing or harming law abiding people either. Where I disagree with you is that I also don't see any benefit to women by allowing males into female-only spaces in order to avoid traumatizing males. Loren and TomC and Jimmy and Poli and Bomb#20 are all males of the human species. I don't want any of them to be traumatized or harmed in any way... but women's intimate spaces aren't shields for vulnerable men. And I don't think that excluding males from female single-sex spaces is traumatizing. I don't think that ANY males should have a legal right to access female spaces because they are not female.

And we aren't trying to avoid traumatizing males. We are trying to protect the trans from those who would hurt or kill them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do struggle a bit where sports are concerned because I am old enough to remember the days before Title IX and see the continuing inequalities between funding and other support for female vs male teams. But so far, most female players do not see a problem and don’t feel they are being crowded out. I defer to their judgement.

Initially that was true because they were badgered, bullied or shamed into agreement or they feared being cancelled or branded a terf. Those days are gone thankfully.

The thing is they simply aren't that many trans athletes. A bunch of noise, very little actual issue regardless of which way it should be resolved.

 

[Toni]

I also wrote this as someone who has reacted very badly to what now, as an adult I recognize as PTSD as a result of sexual assault. I was washing dishes, cleaning a family chore. My little sister came up behind me to scare me —the way siblings do but in this instance I was washing a large sharp butcher knife. I whirled around with the knife grasped in my fist—and fortunately realized it was my sister and not the person who assaulted me , usually from behind. I did not stab my sister abd indeed laughed before returning to my task and trying not to cry. PTSD almost caused me to hurt my sister. But I definitely understand the potential for severe harm as a result of being re-traunstized.

PTSD is not necessarily predictable.

And note that PTSD is a reaction to a fear of something that bears some resemblance to the triggering situation(s), but is not an actual threat. PTSD does not warrant removing the false trigger from society. My wife had a terrifying experience with a mouse when she was small, to this day she won't go near one. But she doesn't try to demand that businesses not sell mice. We simply took the long way around when she saw that part of the market was a wet market and there were mice in that part.

Oh, FFS, Loren. Mice can carry diseases but they cannot beat you, shoot you, stab you with a knife or rape you.


If it were possible, I’d put you on ignore because you are so unable to understand what it is like to be anyone aside from yourself: a blonde haired, blue eyed straight cis man that it isn’t even remotely funny. You come across as crass, mean spirited and willfully stupid—which I know you are not.

But I cannot put you on ignore because you are a mod.

I am therefore removing myself.

 

[Arctish]

or to decide for them which aspect of their identity is real and which isn't, to claim you know more about their perthos than they themselves do.

Pretty funny a supposed atheist who rejects religion will indulge exotic mumbo jumbo because it suits their dumb narrative.

Arthur Koestler said philosophy is the systematic abuse of a terminology specially invented for that purpose. He might as well have been talking about gender ideology.

There is nothing exotic or mumbo-jumbo about neurobiology or the scientific study of cognition and the sense of self.

Your inability to understand my point might be due to my inability to explain it in terms you understand, or it might be due to your inability to understand it at all.

Either way, it feels like I'm trying to explain static electricity to a cat.

Nobody in neurobiology or the scientific study of cognition and the sense of self coined "perthos",

I know.

I coined it.

I made it up.

You think you need to tell me that I made it up? You don't.

I already know I made it up.

Of course you do. I belabored the point in order to drive home how ridiculous you were being to paint seanie and me as claiming the conclusions of neurobiology are exotic mumbo jumbo, when it was painfully obvious that we were calling your made-up term "perthos" exotic mumbo jumbo. You were strawmanning us. Don't do that.

Quote me.

I want to see what you think was me strawmanning you and seanie.

As for the claim that the portmanteau I wrote is "exotic", I suppose it was in the sense that it was an unfamiliar term. But portmanteaus are a regular addition to American English. Words like sexting, bromance, fursona, mansplain, glamping, spork, podcast, hangry, etc. weren't part of the English language when I was a kid, and yet I don't see anyone having problems with them being added or new ones being made.

As for it being mumbo jumbo, I provided a definition. I said it was portmanteau of "person" and "ethos" to indicate the beliefs, values, character, and identity of a person as it relates to their perception of self within and in relation to their society and its customs. What part of that don't you understand?

Is it that people have beliefs? That those beliefs can be held by an individual or they can be shared with others? That people have values? Is it character and identity you think is mumbo jumbo? Or that having a sense of self is nearly universal among humans, and the perception of self includes how one relates to others? Is it the very idea of personhood that people are struggling with?

What part of that is mumbo jumbo?

Or are you using "exotic mumbo jumbo" as code for "I don't agree with you but I can't articulate my reasons so I'll just handwave away your point in a mocking, dismissive manner", which is what TSwizzle appeared to be doing when he brought that phrase into this discussion.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In what sense can an adult male be considered a woman?

Why?

This is actually a great question and shouldn't be asked sarcastically. Especially the "why" part. I don't think the answer is available yet and won't be for a while

But before we leave the dark ages when it comes to understanding of our consciousness, we can at least accept that this does actually exist. Be humane about it. And try to determine how to manage it, so that all parties involved are left with their rights and dignity.

In the real world we typically find the what before we find the why.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ultimately any crime that a faux transgender person could commit is likely to be uncommon based on simple statistics. Is this the boundary to use and tell women that their thoughts on this matter are irrelevant?

I think the statistics mean more than the thoughts. By listening to thoughts you encode the bogeyman into law.

Statistics say a lot of women are a lot more likely than a man to be victimized by sexual assault via a man.

The only reason why trans-women are being considered for the women's room is because men in the men's room are assholes. That seems a logical place to seek improvement.

Almost no school in the US will have a gun massacre, but all schools still practice massacre drills. Sex crimes are about the worst crimes that are committed. That and double parking on Broadway.

Massacre drills are Republican propaganda and should be forbidden.

Massacres have killed a lot more children than fires.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's entirely untrue. Some female players here and there don't have a problem, but a huge amount absolutely object to males participating in their sports.

And we have an accurate measurement of this where?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have read the opposite re: those girls/women who support abd those who do not.

Like with women only spaces, I am not certain what the correct solution actually is.

Start from first principles.

Why do we have sex segregated spaces?

What is the point?

Idiotic prudery.

Same as my wife's former coworker whose wife prohibits him from talking to women without a proper reason.

Same as more than one of my wife's relatives being all concerned about her completely innocently touching a man while talking. How could she possibly do that when I was right there and could see it?? And the concept that I wouldn't have a problem with it was totally alien to them. (Hey, I know who I married. She tends to touch people she's talking to. Doesn't mean she wants to take them to bed.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There’s polling that suggests the overwhelming majority of female athletes, when asked, want sex testing reintroduced.

Given the repercussions for speaking out publicly, it’s no surprise that current athletes tend to stay quiet.

"polling that suggests"--makes me very suspect. It's so easy to rig a poll. Got something scientific, not from an organization with a dog in the fight?

(Which is why I remain undecided on the trans sports situation--everything appears biased. Never went through male puberty is pretty clear, beyond that I don't trust either side.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is actually a great question and shouldn't be asked sarcastically. Especially the "why" part. I don't think the answer is available yet and won't be for a while

I think that the main problems here are two things. Sex and gender are two different things. That's one, and it doesn't fit the trans activists ideology.

The one we're talking about here (this post, not the whole thread) is semantics. For all of human history, until very recently, sex and gender were so tightly entwined there was little point to making a distinction between male and man or female and woman. A person's birth sex determined a ton of stuff about their life, including their gender. That's not the case anymore, at least not here in places with resources and secular values. We've got therapy and advanced treatment options. It's become important to make a distinction between sex and gender, at least under a few circumstances. Our language, however, hasn't kept up. It's gotten a bit obsolete. The difference is utterly unimportant in all but a tiny few circumstances, but sometimes it is important. "Male' and "woman" , sometimes, are opposites.
Tom

Until pretty recently people were pretty much focused on survival necessities. You did what you had to do, wants were pretty far down the priority list. And the woman living as a man was simply trying to survive, whether she wanted to do that wasn't really considered.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.mmu.ac.uk/news-and-even...upport-categorisation-biological-sex-research

The actual study:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2024.2326354#d1e212

And from it:

The survey was also distributed via personal networks and social media platforms. Elite athletes are a “hard to engage” population, hence purposive snowballing sampling was also used.

Ouch.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what?

What has that to do with the question of whether sex is an important characteristic in some circumstances?

Instead of focusing only one one "solution", look at what others did with the same problem. It can be informative.