Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

We are placing the blame on the party that acted with the intent of creating the situation. What we are seeing happen is a Hamas objective, not an Israeli objective.

An implication of that position is that the gov’t of Israel has no agency.

And, if one thinks the gov’t of Israel has agency, then why choose to help their fanatical genocidal neighbors fulfill their objective?

Because Israel perfectly well knows that if they don't slam Hamas it's like with any bully, they'll escalate until they do get a reaction.

It ends up being the heavier a hand Israel uses the safer their people are. Ugly, but they are not in a position to change that. Everyone around there knows how to play safe with Israel--don't poke the porcupine. Don't let others poke the porcupine from within your territory. But there's always someone who will take the money and poke the porcupine.

If that is all true ( a big assumption), since the gov’t of Israel is okay with fulfilling the Hamas objective of disproportionately overreacting to cause misery, destruction and death on civilians, why are you complaining when the world is also fulfilling Hamas’s objective?

And you continue to search under the streetlight.

A non-sequitur is only convincing if the goal is to appear stupid.

 

[laughing dog]

‘A Game of Target Practice’: Doctors Back From Gaza Share Harrowing Stories of Israel’s Brutality in Exclusive Town Hall

In a shocking conversation, two British and American doctors share stories with Mehdi and subscribers about the violence they witnessed – and the heroism of Palestinians.

zeteo.com

Mehdi Hassan interviewing two western doctors that worked in Gaza.

Israel supporters aren't going to like what they have to say.

And what reason do we have to believe that this bears any connection to reality?

More reason than to believe your response is serious.

 

[Arctish]

Stop trying to shift the goalposts.

DrZoidberg posts absurd claims he apparently thinks are true, like the claim that Muslims once held the old idea "kill all Jews" or that Hamas booby trapped every civilian house in Rafah. It's propaganda he thoughtlessly swallowed and is now regurgitating on this discussion board.

Right out of their holy books:
"O Muslim, There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Was that a Muslim State saying it, or a rock?

I already know the answer so don't try bullshitting.

When was "kill all Jews" the idea of Muslim states, Loren? Was it before or after Nazi Germany came up with the plan to kill all Jews? Did the Nazis take instructions from Muslims on how to run the Third Reich or did the Muslims force Jews to state their ethnic and religious affiliation on their ID cards so that they could be singled out for special treatment? Show us the evidence that supports DrZoidberg's claim.

It's been there from the very start.

Most of the time they have simply oppressed the non-Muslims, especially the Jews. Occasional pogroms have happened basically everywhere, though.

Just because the Nazis got in on the antisemitism game doesn't mean it's exclusive to them.

You appear to be implying that the Nazis got the idea to "kill all Jews" from Muslims. Are you? If so, that's a form of Holocaust denial. You are shifting the responsibility and the blame for the most horrific slaughter and crime against humanity from the white Christian Europeans who committed it to brown Muslim Arabs who never even attempted it.

Back up your claim or stop bullshitting. You might think it's harmless or that the harm it does is justified because you are Lying for Zionism, but what you post is propaganda designed to dupe people into believing lies, falsehoods, and deceptions.

And don't just make up bullshit stories about Palestinian Jews being enslaved by their Palestinian Christian and Muslim neighbors. Show us the facts.

You are demanding an impossible burden of proof. But turn it around--why should we think there's something different about that area that it's no like the rest of the world? And Islam likes slavery.

It's not impossible for posters to back up their claims. People here do it all the time.

It's only impossible for you because your claims are bullshit and lies. You can't find facts that support them. And when pressed you claim there is supporting evidence but it's on sites no one else can read so you're doing us a favor by not posting the links.

 

[ZiprHead]

Was 10/7 "justice"? I know it was attempted genocide.

Not even close.

 

[pood]

Jews for justice. Jews against genocide.

Was 10/7 "justice"?

I wasn’t referring to 10/7 and you know it.

I know it was attempted genocide.

Right, a small band of terrorists has the ability to commit genocide.

In the wake of 10/7, Mamdani failed to directly condemn Hamas, or its attack against Israeli civilians. Instead, he chose to bitch about "Netanyahu's declaration of war", and "occupation" (which Gaza hadn't been since 2005).

This is the equivalent of, on December 8th 1941, condemning US Congress for declaring war against Japan, instead of condemning Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor.

Talking total bullshit must be in your DNA. The analogy to Pearl Harbor is stupid as shit.

 

[laughing dog]

Jews for justice. Jews against genocide.

Was 10/7 "justice"?

No.

I know it was attempted genocide.

You may believe it was attempted genocide, but you cannot know that to be true because it obviously wasn’t. The scope and scale of that viscous attack on civilians was too small to be genocide.

 

[Arctish]

You are claiming every house in Rafah was inspected, either by drone or by forcing civilians to inspect them (forced labor in a very dangerous situation in a war zone aka a war crime). That's absurd.

Nobody claimed that.

DrZoidberg claimed that Hamas booby trapped every civilian house in Rafah (post #9975)

I openly wondered how the IDF knew the houses had been booby trapped (post #9976), how the civilians avoided the booby traps and why, if the civilians could avoid them the IDF couldn't.

You said the houses were inspected by drones (post #9995) and that civilians were asked (at gunpoint?) to demonstrate that their homes weren't booby trapped, which would have required a comprehensive examination, via drone and in person by IDF forces, in order to determine that somewhere "in the ballpark" of 100% of the homes in Rafah were booby trapped

Just that the number of houses that were booby trapped was in the ballpark of 100%.

So now you are claiming that the number of houses in Rafah that were booby trapped was "in the ballpark" of 100%. That's a distinction that makes no difference, but let's go with it anyway.

And the evidence that supports this claim is where, exactly? It wasn't in DrZoidberg's post and it wasn't in yours, either.

I would really like to see the evidence. DrZoidberg and you are basically saying that Hamas, with scant resources to manufacture explosives and almost no ability to import anything except by carrying in through tunnels the IDF has been actively trying to destroy, was able to assemble over 50,000 booby traps that were then placed in housing units in Rafah. If true, then Israel has no real hope of winning a war against them and their Super McGuyver skills.

Do you genuinely believe that, or are you shoveling fresh bullshit to make it easier for you to shift the goalposts?

And note that there's no force. Lots of claims of civilians being asked to demonstrate something isn't booby trapped, zero claims of civilians being blown up by said booby traps. It's booby trapped, the civilian refuses to show it's not, IDF assumes trapped. Nobody gets hurt.

Forcing civilians to participate in military operations being conducted by their declared enemies is a war crime.

And if the IDF was assuming something was trapped, you can't use the IDF actions as evidence it was trapped.

You just undermined DrZoidberg's claim and demonstrated the utter ridiculousness of your defense of it.

You are also claiming that the civilians, nearly a third of whom are young children and toddlers, know what will set the booby traps off and can safely live, work, and play among them, which is even more absurd.

Obviously they do not normally set such traps where there are young kids. (We do have that case where supposedly Israel shelled a beach--no, that was a mine that Hamas screwed up and some beachgoer set it off.) But remember the area in question was mostly evacuated.

And you are claiming that before a house was destroyed the IDF would politely ask the families who lived there to prove their houses weren't booby trapped, which implies a house-to-house ground operation so extensive it made the Battle of Fallujah look like a fight between rival street gangs, an operation that would not have resulted in entire neighborhoods destroyed unless Hamas' abilities and resources rival Tony Stark's.

Don't be ridiculous.

Why do you find it unreasonable? We are not talking about an actual firefight situation. And booby traps are cheap.

Do you, or do you not, believe Hamas had enough explosive material and triggering devices to make over 50,000 booby traps and the personnel to properly situate and arm them in housing units in Rafah after the civilian residents left?

Also, do you think they used Stark tech or Hammer tech?

 

[DrZoidberg]

‘A Game of Target Practice’: Doctors Back From Gaza Share Harrowing Stories of Israel’s Brutality in Exclusive Town Hall

In a shocking conversation, two British and American doctors share stories with Mehdi and subscribers about the violence they witnessed – and the heroism of Palestinians.

zeteo.com

Mehdi Hassan interviewing two western doctors that worked in Gaza.

Israel supporters aren't going to like what they have to say.

And what reason do we have to believe that this bears any connection to reality?

The doctors are just liars and anti-semites, right?

The article is anecdotal and how they feel about stuff. There's nothing wrong about the article. The article could be true and Israel could also being great.

Wars are inherently messy and brutal. At best. Stuff like this will happen.

People feel stuff. Its normal

 

[Arctish]

I haven't fully checked out this story but more and more outlets are reporting it:

Leaked Transcript Confirms Netanyahu Chose to Starve Gaza as a Method of War

Israel's war cabinet knowingly restricted all humanitarian aid to Gaza in hopes it would break Hamas

The report also says Netanyahu and the hardliners in his Cabinet (Smotrich and Dermer) chose to walk away from Phase Two of the ceasefire deal against the advice of Army and Intelligence officials who argued for prioritizing getting the hostages back.

 

[ZiprHead]

‘A Game of Target Practice’: Doctors Back From Gaza Share Harrowing Stories of Israel’s Brutality in Exclusive Town Hall

In a shocking conversation, two British and American doctors share stories with Mehdi and subscribers about the violence they witnessed – and the heroism of Palestinians.

zeteo.com

Mehdi Hassan interviewing two western doctors that worked in Gaza.

Israel supporters aren't going to like what they have to say.

And what reason do we have to believe that this bears any connection to reality?

The doctors are just liars and anti-semites, right?

The article is anecdotal and how they feel about stuff. There's nothing wrong about the article. The article could be true and Israel could also being great.

Wars are inherently messy and brutal. At best. Stuff like this will happen.

People feel stuff. Its normal

It's not an article. It's a video interview. I don't think you actually watched it and are just trying to BS away evidence of atrocities.

 

[Derec]

You may believe it was attempted genocide,

I know it was.

but you cannot know that to be true because it obviously wasn’t.

Poor Hamas, getting bombed for a crime they did not even commit! Attempted genocide? Now honestly what is that? Do they give a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry‽

The scope and scale of that viscous

Viscous? Hamas is not molasses in January.

attack on civilians was too small to be genocide.

Not for a lack of trying.

7 years later, they tried to do just that.

 

[laughing dog]

I know it was attempted genocide.

You may believe it was attempted genocide, but you cannot know that to be true because it obviously wasn’t. The scope and scale of that viscous

Viscous? Hamas is not molasses in January.

attack on civilians was too small to be genocide.

Not for a lack of trying.

7 years later, they tried to do just that.

No matter how hard you wish to portray that terrible terrorist attack as attempted genocide and no matter how many times you repeat that wish, it won’t become true.

 

[DrZoidberg]

According to my Israeli friends a lot of dramatic political shifts have occurred lately

1. Netanyahu has finally decided to take a stand against the Jewish settlers. Their behaviour throughout the conflict has been so atrocious they've now managed to piss off their last ally. That’s great news. Netanyahu thinks that being politically allied to the settlers is a liability.

He's gunning for being relected. While his support was in the toilet for allowing the 7/10 attack to take place, his performance during the war has won him a lot of support back.

But he's also notorious for saying whatever to get elected. So it could all be.. well... politics.

I also learned something else today. Most Jewish settlers aren't religious fanatics. They're mostly young people struggling financially and have been priced out of Israels urban centres. Israel is overpopulated. They’re moving into settlements because they're out of other options. That puts a bit of a different spin on it. Add to that, the many settlers are insane religious fanatics and are the worst of the worst scum.

2. There's a pretty monumental new shift among the Palestinians to. They're increasingly no longer willing to do whatever their imams and religious leaders tell them. Which is bad news for Hamas. But also bad news for all the other crack-pot Jew hating groups vying for power.

Its not as crazy as it sounds. The devoutly religious Iranians were led astray by their mullahs for decades. The result is that any Iranian not part of the oppressive regime hates the mullahs. The Muslim faith has never been weaker in Iran. If my friends are to trust, something similar is increasingly happening among the Palestinians

If true, it might make it possible to actually negotiate for something workable. As long as Palestinians keep being represented by fundamentalist Islamofascist fanatics... negotiating with them, by Israel, is a waste of time.

We'll see. Both pieces of news gives me hope

 

[laughing dog]

Personally, I don't see any hope in young secular bigots engaging violence instead of religious fanatics.

Nor does this this report -
Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan

Israel is in discussions with South Sudan about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from the Gaza Strip to the war-torn East African country, part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas.

Six people familiar with the matter confirmed the talks to The Associated Press. It’s unclear how far the talks have advanced, but if implemented, the plans would amount to transferring people from one war-ravaged land at risk of famine to another, and raise human rights concerns.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he wants to realize US President Donald Trump’s vision of relocating much of Gaza’s population through what Netanyahu refers to as “voluntary migration.” Israel has floated similar resettlement proposals with other African nations.

Make Gaza uninhabitable and inhospitable so that people leave. That looks epsilon close to a form of ethnic cleansing to me.

 

[Derec]

I haven't fully checked out this story but more and more outlets are reporting it:

Leaked Transcript Confirms Netanyahu Chose to Starve Gaza as a Method of War

Truthout is not a credible source.

Israel's war cabinet knowingly restricted all humanitarian aid to Gaza in hopes it would break Hamas

Neither is DropSite News.

The report also says Netanyahu and the hardliners in his Cabinet (Smotrich and Dermer) chose to walk away from Phase Two of the ceasefire deal against the advice of Army and Intelligence officials who argued for prioritizing getting the hostages back.

The problem is that Hamas, despite all the military losses they have incurred, still insists on ridiculous demands. That's why recent ceasefire negotiations have collapsed.

 

[laughing dog]

I haven't fully checked out this story but more and more outlets are reporting it:

Leaked Transcript Confirms Netanyahu Chose to Starve Gaza as a Method of War

Truthout is not a credible source.

Israel's war cabinet knowingly restricted all humanitarian aid to Gaza in hopes it would break Hamas

Neither is DropSite News.

Are they not credible because they are inaccurate or because of the slant of their reporting? I ask, because this week’s Economist is reporting both claims.

The report also says Netanyahu and the hardliners in his Cabinet (Smotrich and Dermer) chose to walk away from Phase Two of the ceasefire deal against the advice of Army and Intelligence officials who argued for prioritizing getting the hostages back.

The problem is that Hamas, despite all the military losses they have incurred, still insists on ridiculous demands. That's why recent ceasefire negotiations have collapsed.

Do you negotiations have collapsed as in stalled (i.e. going nowhere) or in that one party has walked away? In the latter case, the problem is the party that walks away.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's a good one. The journalist Haviv Rettig Gur on how Israel has changed. He's a senior political correspondent on Israels biggest newspaper. He couldn't be more mainstream and centrist. Hear what regular Israelis are now thinking on the conflict

 

[DrZoidberg]

Personally, I don't see any hope in young secular bigots engaging violence instead of religious fanatics.

Nor does this this report -
Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan

Israel is in discussions with South Sudan about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from the Gaza Strip to the war-torn East African country, part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas.

Six people familiar with the matter confirmed the talks to The Associated Press. It’s unclear how far the talks have advanced, but if implemented, the plans would amount to transferring people from one war-ravaged land at risk of famine to another, and raise human rights concerns.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he wants to realize US President Donald Trump’s vision of relocating much of Gaza’s population through what Netanyahu refers to as “voluntary migration.” Israel has floated similar resettlement proposals with other African nations.

Make Gaza uninhabitable and inhospitable so that people leave. That looks epsilon close to a form of ethnic cleansing to me.

Well... the Jews kicked off their land in other Middle-Eastern countries won't see that land again. So Israel has this to justify the action.

I see the logic of moving the Palestinians somewhere where their Islamic fanaticsm can't do any damage. If they're moved to a country that already is completely Sunni Islamic, then, at least the religious conflict is out of the picture.

I'm not defending this. But I do understand the thinking.

I personally see the religion is a bullshit distraction. I don't think its about religion. I think its about money and power. If Gaza becomes stable and prosperous all the religious conflicts will just magically go away. Hamas/Iran knows this. Which is why they've trashed the economy and made Gaza into a fortress dependent on foreign aid.

Whatever makes Gazans calm down and focus on generating wealth instead of Jewish corpses, I'm for. That would be a workable solution. Moving all the Gazans might happen. But I'm not sure it'll be worth it. Neither for Israel or Gazan Palestinians.

But taking control of Gaza, without removing the Palestinians, might not be worth it for Israel either. And they must take control over Gaza, simply out of self preservation. But a population hellbent on murdering every Jew, might be too hard to control. That doesn't leave many options

 

[DrZoidberg]

Its also good to keep in mind the differences between what Palestinians (in west bank and Gaza demand and what Israelis (Jewish and Palestinian) demand.

Israelis are cool with Palestinians having basic human rights. The Palestinians (in Gaza and the West Bank) are not cool with Jews having any rights at all.

Its different values and a different world view.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've emphasized the question in bold to manage the "vagueness" of my explicit question.

But wait... TomC didn't say that... at least not yet. So, the question is, to TomC what level of Israeli retaliation would supercede the moral authority created by Hamas' massacre on October 7?

The problem here is that you think there should be an exchange rate in the first place.

Answer the damn question and stop poorly reading between lines.

At what point is Israel's reaction in Gaza too much? If they nuked Gaza, would that be too much? What if they carpet bombed Gaza? What is the limit?

No of course there is no specific math, but the problem I have is that using 10/7 as a justification any action, sounds very familiar to what the US and W Admin did in 2003.