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Origins Of Christianity

It is presumed for good reason that the allegedly good news - the subject matter which was preached - was not that Paul was divinely inspired. The subject matter which was preached was not elevated in any way by virtue of Paul having been divinely inspired - even if he were in fact so inspired. The subject matter which he preached was/is independent of however it was that he had inspiration. The subject matter which he preached can be considered independently (and as independent) of whatever was the inspiration.

Evaluating the content on human merits is exactly what I’m doing—and on that ground Paul’s letters read as ordinary Greco-Roman epistolary argumentation about ethics, community order, and theology. But you can’t have it both ways: Paul himself repeatedly invokes origin to secure authority—“not from men,” “received from the Lord,” “a command of the Lord”—precisely when adjudicating disputes. When the author makes origin the warrant, origin stops being “immaterial.” For public assessment, a non-human source requires public evidence; none exists. So the rational split is simple: assess the “good news” as human philosophy and reject the “not of human origin” claim as unsupported.

This approach is the one which is more compatible with the injunction against taking God's name in vain - an injunction a purpose of which is to effect realization that (development of) personal understanding is essential (and is to be much preferred over deferential rote thought).

If invoking God to short-circuit debate is a misuse of the divine name, then Paul’s appeals to revelation and “the Lord’s command” should be removed from the argument. Historically, he does the opposite: he deploys the origin claim to trump rivals and to enforce practice. The only way to honor your stated principle is to drop the divine warrant entirely and let the ideas stand on human reasons alone. Do that, and my conclusion follows: the content lives or dies as human reasoning; the origin claim does no legitimate work.

The priority of this understanding-based approach is also evident in the story about Jesus offending the Pharisees when he says that it is not what goes into the mouth which defiles a person. Befuddled, Peter asks Jesus to explain what he meant, and Jesus replies sharply: “Are you still so dull, still so without understanding?" It does not even matter that Jesus is the speaker. What is important is developing an understanding - as an individual. What is essential is that the individual communication recipient undertake to develop an own understanding, an understanding which, of course, is subject to testing and challenge according to the understandings had by others.

Emphasizing understanding supports my stance: weigh arguments, evidence, and consequences. It does nothing to verify a non-human source. And again, Paul himself ties his directives to revelatory authorization when it suits his polemic. If understanding alone is the goal, his revelation language is superfluous and should be set aside; if it’s more than rhetoric, it requires substantiation he never provides.

Assume for the sake of discussion that the Archimedes eureka moment story depicts an actual occurrence of experienced inspiration. Now assume that Archimedes had said that he had been divinely inspired or divinely touched or that a time-traveler from the future or a person from some other civilization or world had provided the inspiration or the information which led to the understanding Archimedes had attained and expressed (taught/preached).

Would it be reasonable to let that inspiration claim distract from the reported understanding and, consequently, from a development of an own understanding about the understanding? Is it not the understanding expressed which would be possibly significant and more certainly of greater significance than the source of the inspiration, than whether, in this case, Archimedes had been subject to some other-"world"-ly experience?

Archimedes is a category error that favors my case, not yours. His claims are testable and reproducible; the truth of his conclusions does not hinge on his story about their origin. Paul’s central claims—revelation, divine commissioning, salvific meaning of a particular death and resurrection—are not empirically reproducible. When origin is unverifiable and the consequences are doctrinal authority over communities, the source claim must be tested by public criteria. Archimedes can be validated independently of his “inspiration”; Paul’s origin claim cannot—which is why it carries no evidential weight in public reasoning.

Setting focus upon the inspiration is not the same as - and, in fact, precludes - developing an own understanding. For so long as there is focus upon the inspiration, there is no understanding. And that would be the case even for Paul even if he were actually divinely inspired.

False dilemma. We can analyze content and test warrants simultaneously. I’ve done both: I’ve treated the epistles as human arguments—thesis, objection, reply, imperative—and shown that their composition and transmission exhibit only human fingerprints. That analytical work does not require, and is not impeded by, rejecting an unsubstantiated origin claim. But the moment that claim is used to compel deference, it must be scrutinized. It fails scrutiny because it yields no discriminating public evidence.

The important issue is not the matter regarding whether or not Paul was divinely inspired.

For private devotion, perhaps. For history, authority claims, and inter-community adjudication, it is decisive. Paul uses “not of human origin” to legitimate doctrine and practice against rivals; the early reception of his letters leverages apostolic authority. If origin is immaterial, remove it and let the ideas compete as ordinary human proposals. If it matters—and the texts show it does—then it requires public warrant. On the evidence we possess, that warrant does not exist. The conclusion is inescapable: assess Paul’s ideas as human; treat his origin claim as an unfalsifiable article of faith with no standing in public argument.

NHC
 
NHC said:
Archimedes is a category error that favors my case, not yours. His claims are testable and reproducible; the truth of his conclusions does not hinge on his story about their origin. Paul’s central claims—revelation, divine commissioning, salvific meaning of a particular death and resurrection—are not empirically reproducible. When origin is unverifiable and the consequences are doctrinal authority over communities, the source claim must be tested by public criteria. Archimedes can be validated independently of his “inspiration”; Paul’s origin claim cannot—which is why it carries no evidential weight in public reasoning.

You’ve done a fine job of explaining the driver behind Mr Pearl’s insistence upon conflating testimony with evidence. (No need to explain all the different ways the word “evidence” is used colloquially AGAIN)
Without allowing such conflation/duplicity, his whole thesis is reduced to parity with Grimm’s Faury Tales.
 
Evaluating the content on human merits is exactly what I’m doing
No it is not. For so long as your focus remains on the matter of Paul's inspiration, you are not evaluating whatever was the gospel he preached. That is because the gospel which he preached was not the alleged fact of his having been divinely inspired.

—and on that ground Paul’s letters read as ordinary Greco-Roman epistolary argumentation about ethics, community order, and theology.
For so long as you focus on the matter of whether or not Paul was divinely inspired, you do not evaluate what he says about "ethics", in particular ethics as love which, there is reason to think, was a key aspect of what he preached. Then, once you set focus upon Paul's understanding expressed as ethics as love you further the discussion by indicating how it is that such a message was "ordinary Greco-Roman ... argumentation about ethics", with emphasis on "ordinary".

The fact that such a message would be at all sensible or at all understandable within a Greco-Roman context is to be expected; such is the nature of communication and communicability. Sensibility does not necessitate or justify the attribution of "ordinary". Some might mistake that point as a semantics matter; it is not; it is a logic matter (although it is, of course, a fact that semantics is not independent of logic).

Furthermore, were an actual case presented that showed how some other non-Christian, non-Jewish, non-religious preachings about ethics as love could be read as significantly similar to Paul's teaching, that in no way detracts from Paul's teaching, and, given the nature of inspiration (not to mention the nature of divine inspiration as understood by Jews, for example), it does not even put a chink in Paul's claim of having been divinely inspired which, as previously discussed, is made ultimately irrelevant with the development of understanding that became Paul's message, which is to say the development of an understanding about Paul's understanding.

Now, there is very good reason for rejecting the above attribution of "ordinary". As Arendt notes in The Human Condition, love is "one of the rarest occurrences in human lives" and "indeed possesses an unequaled power of self-revelation and an unequaled clarity of vision ... Love, by its very nature, is unworldly, and it is for this reason rather than its rarity that it is not only apolitical but antipolitical, perhaps the most powerful of all antipolitical human forces." And, long before Arendt, Machiavelli was well aware of these very same facts about ethics as love.

This means that a preaching of ethics as love would not have been predominant in the Greco-Roman context; therefore, the ethics as love message would not have been "ordinary" regardless of who preached that viewpoint.

Were you actually "evaluating" the ethics as love aspect of Paul's teaching, then you would realize that this ethics is not about establishing "community order" in the sense of imposing such an order. A community order would/could follow from an aggregation of persons as they developed understanding about the manifestation of love as acts, but that, too, is an issue far removed from the question of whether Paul was divinely inspired or not.

Emphasizing understanding supports my stance: weigh arguments, evidence, and consequences.
It in no way supports your remaining focused on the question of whether or not Paul was divinely inspired. Were you to move off of that focus and, instead, set focus upon understanding, then you will have to come to an appreciation of the differences between discussions and arguments. You will have to understand that in ethics as love, even in arguments the burden of proof is not assigned; it is shared. That, of course, transforms argument into discussion.

Furthermore, with regards to evidence, you will have to take account of what would be evidence of the actuality of ethical love - including whether love can be actual without being noticed. I'll jump way ahead and note that love can indeed be actual without being noticed - which can be re-stated as love can be actual without being evident. But all that is for a discussion way down the line from where we are at present.

Archimedes is a category error that favors my case, not yours. His claims are testable and reproducible
No! No! No! It's absolutely the opposite. When you talk about testing his claims, you have put aside all considerations regarding the matter of his inspiration. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SHOW YOU THAT THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT CAN AND SHOULD BE DONE WITH PAUL'S CLAIM ABOUT HIS INSPIRATION!

So, are we now done with the matter of the relevance of Paul's inspiration?

You are the one who said the issue had to do with whether anyone was obliged to accept his claim about his inspiration. I told you no one was so obliged, and you have shown that understanding can be achieved without any consideration regarding the nature of inspiration. You did it for Archimedes as presented, and you should, therefore, be able to do it for Paul.

And, as I have said a few times already, if you want to argue against the way Paul used his alleged inspiration to get his way in (let us just call it) more practical matters, then go for it. That is a different discussion, as I have noted.

One other point to make in closing: From a religious perspective, the ethics as love can be expressed as its being concerned with the development of Godli(ke)ness in human individuals. From that perspective, the development occurs in the world, but it is by its very nature unworldly and, thereby, at least seemingly otherworldly. That perspective is not obligatory; it is arguably not necessary for the development of ethical love, but such a perspective can still be understood - even if it is never a perspective one would adopt as one's own.
 
Has Pearl just opened the door for a discussion on so called Christian ethics?

I am sure deep down inside he wants to hug all of us with love for all mankind. Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, gays....

Christian claim an exclusive morality from Jesus, but there is n not much said. Universal love, compassion for all, and self moderation predate Christianity by about 600 year in Buddhism.

There was a theory in the 60s 70s that Jesus spent his missing years in India.

Christian ethics and morality would be another thread.
 
No it is not. For so long as your focus remains on the matter of Paul's inspiration, you are not evaluating whatever was the gospel he preached. That is because the gospel which he preached was not the alleged fact of his having been divinely inspired

I have evaluated the content directly and on its own terms. Paul’s program is recoverable as human moral and communal reasoning: care for the weak in conscience and refrain for their sake, mutual up-building, charity as the highest virtue, unity over faction, sexual ethics, work discipline, almsgiving, and collection for Jerusalem. These are argued through reasons, examples, and consequences. That is content analysis. Separately, when Paul uses “not of human origin” as a warrant to trump rivals, the origin claim becomes part of the argument and must be tested. Doing both—assessing content as human reasoning and rejecting an unsubstantiated origin claim—are not mutually exclusive.

For so long as you focus on the matter of whether or not Paul was divinely inspired, you do not evaluate what he says about "ethics", in particular ethics as love which, there is reason to think, was a key aspect of what he preached. Then, once you set focus upon Paul's understanding expressed as ethics as love you further the discussion by indicating how it is that such a message was "ordinary Greco-Roman ... argumentation about ethics", with emphasis on "ordinary".

Paul’s love ethic can be—and has been—analyzed on its own. His portrait of agapē as patient, other-regarding action maps onto recognizable paraenetic topoi: virtue catalogs, example-and-exhortation structure, and community-preserving norms. “Ordinary” here is not a value judgment; it means “fully explicable by known human sources and literary conventions.” The love command is inherited from Jewish scripture and Second Temple teaching; its applications in conflict mediation, status leveling, and beneficence are paralleled in contemporary Jewish and Greco-Roman moral discourse. That shows the content is humanly sourced and intelligible without appealing to a non-human cause.

The fact that such a message would be at all sensible or at all understandable within a Greco-Roman context is to be expected; such is the nature of communication and communicability. Sensibility does not necessitate or justify the attribution of "ordinary". Some might mistake that point as a semantics matter; it is not; it is a logic matter (although it is, of course, a fact that semantics is not independent of logic).

Furthermore, were an actual case presented that showed how some other non-Christian, non-Jewish, non-religious preachings about ethics as love could be read as significantly similar to Paul's teaching, that in no way detracts from Paul's teaching, and, given the nature of inspiration (not to mention the nature of divine inspiration as understood by Jews, for example), it does not even put a chink in Paul's claim of having been divinely inspired which, as previously discussed, is made ultimately irrelevant with the development of understanding that became Paul's message, which is to say the development of an understanding about Paul's understanding.

“Ordinary” is a historical classification, not semantics gamesmanship. If a text’s concepts, rhetoric, and use-cases are accounted for by extant human traditions and forms, the logical conclusion is that a human explanation suffices. Logic favors the sufficient cause we can observe over an unnecessary, untestable one. Calling the result “ordinary” simply marks that no supra-human explanatory residue remains after the human causes are identified.

Similarity elsewhere does not detract from the ethical value of Paul’s counsel, but it is decisive against the necessity of a non-human source. When an idea sits within a continuous web of human precedents and literary forms, the simplest and only warranted inference is human origin. Your fallback—declaring inspiration “ultimately irrelevant”—concedes that the origin claim adds no evidential weight to the content. Yet Paul himself invokes that claim precisely to ground authority in disputes. You cannot treat it as irrelevant when evidence is demanded and decisive when authority is asserted. On public criteria, the content stands or falls as human philosophy and communal policy; the assertion “not of human origin” remains an unfalsifiable add-on with no place in a factual argument.

Now, there is very good reason for rejecting the above attribution of "ordinary". As Arendt notes in The Human Condition, love is "one of the rarest occurrences in human lives" and "indeed possesses an unequaled power of self-revelation and an unequaled clarity of vision ... Love, by its very nature, is unworldly, and it is for this reason rather than its rarity that it is not only apolitical but antipolitical, perhaps the most powerful of all antipolitical human forces." And, long before Arendt, Machiavelli was well aware of these very same facts about ethics as love.

Appealing to Arendt and Machiavelli does not convert rarity into supernatural origin, nor does it make Paul’s ethic anything other than humanly explicable. “Ordinary” in historical analysis means “accounted for by known human sources and conventions,” not “commonplace” or “banal.” Paul’s love ethic sits squarely within identifiable human traditions. Its Jewish backbone is explicit: “love your neighbor” comes from Leviticus 19, amplified in Second Temple teaching and in Jesus’ summary of the law, which Paul cites. Its Greco-Roman resonances are also well-documented: discussions of beneficence, mutual obligation, and universal concern appear in Cicero’s De Officiis, Seneca’s De Beneficiis, Musonius Rufus, Epictetus, and the Stoic notion of concentric circles of concern (oikeiosis) and cosmopolis. Arendt’s twentieth-century taxonomy of love as “unworldly” is a philosophical interpretation, not evidence about first-century literary dependence or divine causation. Machiavelli, for his part, treats love as a political affect less reliable than fear; he is not testifying to a transcendent ethic but analyzing power. None of this establishes that Paul’s ethic requires a non-human source; it shows exactly the opposite—that it can be mapped to antecedent human discourses.

This means that a preaching of ethics as love would not have been predominant in the Greco-Roman context; therefore, the ethics as love message would not have been "ordinary" regardless of who preached that viewpoint.

Were you actually "evaluating" the ethics as love aspect of Paul's teaching, then you would realize that this ethics is not about establishing "community order" in the sense of imposing such an order. A community order would/could follow from an aggregation of persons as they developed understanding about the manifestation of love as acts, but that, too, is an issue far removed from the question of whether Paul was divinely inspired or not.

“Not predominant” is not the same as “not human.” Minority schools and countercultural moral programs are routine in antiquity. Stoic universalism, Cynic critiques of status, Jewish diasporic ethics of charity and neighbor love—all were present though not dominant. A message can be distinctive in emphasis and still be ordinary in origin if its concepts, vocabulary, and argumentative forms are continuous with known traditions. Paul’s prose is standard Koine epistolary rhetoric; his paraenesis, virtue lists, and vice catalogs have abundant analogues; his love hymn in 1 Corinthians 13 is rhetorically striking but conceptually traceable to Jewish and Hellenistic moral topoi. Distinct does not equal supernatural.

Paul absolutely uses his ethic to regulate community behavior directly. He commands exclusion of an offender in Corinth, stipulates procedures for gatherings, limits ecstatic speech, adjudicates food and idol questions, instructs on financial collections, urges work discipline, and prescribes reconciliation practices. Those are explicit directives aimed at producing order, not merely hoping it emerges spontaneously from private virtue. The record shows argument plus enforcement mechanisms—hallmarks of human community leadership. And even if one reframes those outcomes as flowing from love, they remain fully explainable by ordinary social dynamics. Nothing in that pattern verifies a non-human source. Your own concession that the origin claim is “far removed” from these issues confirms my point: the content can be assessed—and is sufficiently explained—on human grounds, while “not of human origin” adds no evidential weight and remains an unfalsifiable assertion.

It in no way supports your remaining focused on the question of whether or not Paul was divinely inspired. Were you to move off of that focus and, instead, set focus upon understanding, then you will have to come to an appreciation of the differences between discussions and arguments. You will have to understand that in ethics as love, even in arguments the burden of proof is not assigned; it is shared. That, of course, transforms argument into discussion.

Furthermore, with regards to evidence, you will have to take account of what would be evidence of the actuality of ethical love - including whether love can be actual without being noticed. I'll jump way ahead and note that love can indeed be actual without being noticed - which can be re-stated as love can be actual without being evident. But all that is for a discussion way down the line from where we are at present.

I have already evaluated Paul’s content as human reasoning about community life and ethics; doing that does not exempt his separate origin claim from scrutiny. When Paul invokes “not from men,” “received from the Lord,” or anathematizes rivals, he has moved from discussion to assertion of a cause that outranks competing teachers. Epistemically, the burden of proof tracks who introduces the non-ordinary explanation. If someone claims a text’s source is non-human, they must supply evidence that discriminates that cause from normal authorship and transmission. “Sharing” the burden does not absolve the claimant of supporting their own positive thesis; it simply means each side is responsible for the claims they advance. I’ve met mine by showing that everything observable in the letters—their language, genre, argument structure, and manuscript history—is fully human. You have not produced any objective criterion that would separate “divinely inspired” from “humanly composed.”

Whether an act of love can occur unnoticed is irrelevant to the origin claim. Unnoticed love may be morally meaningful, but it leaves no public trace that could validate “not of human origin.” The question on the table is causal: did Paul’s message originate beyond human cognition? If the alleged signature of divine inspiration is, by your account, undetectable, then it cannot function as evidence in public argument. What we can detect are the artifacts: letters written in standard Koine, employing familiar rhetorical moves, circulated and recopied with ordinary variants, and used to order communities through explicit directives. Those are precisely the footprints of human composition and leadership. If “divine inspiration” produces no distinct, testable consequences, it cannot underwrite Paul’s authority claims. His ideas can still be weighed on their human merits; the non-human origin claim remains an unfalsifiable add-on that does no evidential work and cannot bind anyone who asks for reasons.

No! No! No! It's absolutely the opposite. When you talk about testing his claims, you have put aside all considerations regarding the matter of his inspiration. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SHOW YOU THAT THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT CAN AND SHOULD BE DONE WITH PAUL'S CLAIM ABOUT HIS INSPIRATION!

So, are we now done with the matter of the relevance of Paul's inspiration?

Testing Archimedes’ claims works because the claims themselves generate reproducible consequences that independently confirm or disconfirm them. Setting aside his “inspiration” does not conceal anything essential; the measurable results do the work. Paul’s central origin claim does not generate such public tests. We can and do evaluate his ethical counsel and community rules as human arguments; that succeeds precisely because those are ordinary, observable reasoning and effects. But the extra step—“not of human origin”—adds no testable content. So yes, bracket inspiration when assessing his ideas; no, do not pretend that bracketing somehow upgrades the origin claim. It remains unsupported.

It is irrelevant when judging the coherence or value of his ideas; it is immediately relevant the moment it is invoked to secure authority over rivals or bind communities. Paul himself repeatedly uses the origin claim for that purpose. When a claim is used as a warrant for deference, it must meet public standards of evidence. His does not.

You are the one who said the issue had to do with whether anyone was obliged to accept his claim about his inspiration. I told you no one was so obliged, and you have shown that understanding can be achieved without any consideration regarding the nature of inspiration. You did it for Archimedes as presented, and you should, therefore, be able to do it for Paul.

And, as I have said a few times already, if you want to argue against the way Paul used his alleged inspiration to get his way in (let us just call it) more practical matters, then go for it. That is a different discussion, as I have noted.

One other point to make in closing: From a religious perspective, the ethics as love can be expressed as its being concerned with the development of Godli(ke)ness in human individuals. From that perspective, the development occurs in the world, but it is by its very nature unworldly and, thereby, at least seemingly otherworldly. That perspective is not obligatory; it is arguably not necessary for the development of ethical love, but such a perspective can still be understood - even if it is never a perspective one would adopt as one's own.

Agreed on the first part: no one is obliged to accept an uncorroborated private report. That concession settles the public question. We can fully understand Paul’s reasoning while rejecting his self-authorization as evidentially irrelevant. The difference from Archimedes is crucial: Archimedes’ conclusions are checkable without his origin story; Paul’s origin assertion is not checkable at all, yet he uses it to trump disagreement. That is precisely why it cannot function as a public premise.

It is not a different discussion because it happens inside the same letters. The ethical exhortations and the authority claims travel together. When he grounds commands in “received from the Lord” or anathematizes contrary gospels, the origin claim is doing argumentative work in those practical matters. You cannot cordon it off after the fact. If the warrant is invoked, the warrant must be evidenced. It isn’t.

Framing love as “godliness” is a theological interpretation, not evidence of non-human origin. Ethical development in communities is observable and fully accounted for by human cognition, social learning, and moral reasoning. Calling the outcome “unworldly” does not supply an objective discriminator between divine causation and ordinary human processes. On what we can publicly inspect—language, genre, argument, and transmission—Paul’s writings bear human fingerprints only. His ideas can be appraised on their human merits; his origin claim cannot be established and therefore cannot bind anyone who requires reasons rather than professions.

NHC
 
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I am no scholar of religion but have read a fair amount on the history of the bible.
With the history of redactions and transcript errors, who even knows what Christianity is?
Fourth century counsels?
King James's opinions?
In the end, I really don't care much anymore what the fuck people believe as it does not break my bones or pick my pocket.
 
Has Pearl just opened the door for a discussion on so called Christian ethics?

I am sure deep down inside he wants to hug all of us with love for all mankind. Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, gays....

Mr.Pearl highlights the importance and crucial element, that is understanding. In the case of Paul where its lacking - that's people making assumptions of what Paul's supposed intentions were, like the "lifting from Greek philosophy etc.&. etc.."out of context nonsense, which are just merely false accusations that doesn't attempt at all to try looking at character profiling Paul's thought mentality, trying to understand ie. understanding ! Can you analyze and judge a liar,a delusional characteristic from his or her writings?
Re
Christian claim an exclusive morality from Jesus, but there is n not much said. Universal love, compassion for all, and self moderation predate Christianity by about 600 year in Buddhism.

Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

As the old saying goes: You're preaching to the converted ! It's a sign you may be a believer yet😉
There was a theory in the 60s 70s that Jesus spent his missing years in India.

Christian ethics and morality would be another thread.
Ok
 
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Leanrer

I am not as eloquent as others so I'll just say theology and apologetics are jut a lot of hot air and hand waving.

It all come down to a belief in a few key lines in ancient documents such as a Jesus coming back from the dead. There are no original source documents and the source of the story is unknown.

I posted how the Arthurian legend got started.

In terms of modern science I see it as feel good endorphin high. Shopping addiction has to do with endorphins. Continuously talking about Jesus becomes a self perpetuating feel good high. In a sense the source of Chrtianity.

You want to live by the inspired widom and morality of Paul?

Women should not instruct men in public.
Women should not were adornments.
Women should be submissivee.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

And so on.

Paul's ethic-morality as is the gospels and OT often oppressive by our modern standard and are often contradictory. It becomes situational ethics. Christians freely interpret morality to fit a situation.

There is nothing divinely inspired about Chrtianity. For all we know Jesus and Paul were raving lunatics, delusional.

I see them on the streets of Seattle, people walking onrush ranting quotes from the bible.

To me Christianity as it is today began with the Council Of Nicaea. The resulting theology was subsidized as a compromise between competing factions who were at times violent.

The Nicaean Creed established the divinity of Jesus as the theology. Not all agreed.

The Council of Nicaea, convened in 325 AD, addressed the nature of Jesus Christ's divinity, particularly in response to the Arian controversy. While the council did not invent the idea of Jesus' divinity, it affirmed the existing belief in his co-equality and co-eternality with God the Father. The council's key decision was to declare that Jesus was "of the same substance" (homoousios) as the Father, rejecting the Arian view that Jesus was a created being. This declaration was formalized in the Nicene Creed, a statement of faith that remains central to Christian belief.

And again a god-man is not Jewish it is Greek mythology. A god-man is antithetical to biblical Jews,

There is nothing biblical about Christianity. I(t is all a myth you are immersed in.

Al that you can do is then clam the council itself was divinely inspired. But then Constantine 'inspired' the council because warring Christians in the empire were a problem.
 
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Similarity elsewhere does not detract from the ethical value of Paul’s counsel, but it is decisive against the necessity of a non-human source.
That statement is yet additional evidence that your continued and primary focus is on Paul's claim of having been divinely inspired. Also, you are using the term "necessity" ambiguously there; consequently, your use of "decisive" is, uh, I'll just say, entertaining. It does not really matter that your use of necessity and decisive are dubious, because at no point in this discussion has "the necessity of a non-human source" been claimed, supported, or asserted as of any significance, and, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, the "non-human source" is not even a hinge matter.

Appealing to Arendt and Machiavelli does not convert rarity into supernatural origin
And that further demonstrates that your focus remains on the question of whether Paul was divinely inspired or not.

Do you have experience with inspiration? Do you understand the relationship between inspiration and understanding? Based on the available evidence, neither seems to be the case. I think it is possible for a person who has no experience with inspiration to come to comprehend the relationship between inspiration and understanding. Do you know what is the first necessary condition which must be met before the development of such a comprehension can commence?

“Not predominant” is not the same as “not human.”
Sheesh! Still another demonstration that your focus remains on the question of the actuality of divine inspiration and more specifically whether Paul was divinely inspired or not.

Setting aside his “inspiration” does not conceal anything essential
This is where you would say, "You have conceded my point." What is essential is the development of understanding.

when Paul uses “not of human origin” as a warrant to trump rivals, the origin claim becomes part of the argument and must be tested.
And just as a final reminder, this discussion originated regarding the allegedly divine inspiration and the gospel Paul preached. You have not moved the discussion off of that point. What has been repeatedly noted - and not just by me - is that the gospel preached is something other than, something distinct from, Paul's engagement with rivals.

The bottom line is that your focus is - and has always been - on whether Paul was ever actually divinely inspired, and that means you never did begin to try to understand. Oh, and you have not decisively demonstrated that Paul was not divinely inspired. It is unfortunate that you do not appreciate the fact that this failure on your part is of no significance. You do not understand the insignificance, because you do not understand that even an indubitable proof of divine inspiration is of no significance from even a religious perspective, since it it always the furthered development of understanding (not rote thought) on the part of individuals which is most essential and desired from that perspective.

So, I leave the last word to you if you want to have it.
 
Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
 
Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
Or maybe you mean...the ancient Hebrews or ancient Israelites, or... can we technically say ancient Hebrew-ism before there was Judaism?🙂

Mass murder of babies e.g.. sacrificing babies to Molech or Baal was quite normal for many nations back then - Gods enemies in defiance.

That is not good,says God.

We 'should comprehend' the simple 'conceptual understanding' that an 'All Mighty God' should be able to see this...as a continuous generational abomination far into the future. For these particular nations who defied God in this way, have been judged - they no longer exist, sacrificing babies.
 
That statement is yet additional evidence that your continued and primary focus is on Paul's claim of having been divinely inspired. Also, you are using the term "necessity" ambiguously there; consequently, your use of "decisive" is, uh, I'll just say, entertaining. It does not really matter that your use of necessity and decisive are dubious, because at no point in this discussion has "the necessity of a non-human source" been claimed, supported, or asserted as of any significance, and, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, the "non-human source" is not even a hinge matter.

“Necessity” here is not logical necessity; it is explanatory necessity. A cause is necessary only if the phenomena cannot be adequately accounted for without it. Paul’s letters—their concepts, rhetoric, and transmission—are fully explained by ordinary human authorship, known Jewish and Greco-Roman moral discourse, and routine scribal copying. Because those human explanations suffice, a non-human source is not explanatorily necessary. That is why similarity and continuity with other traditions are decisive against positing an extra cause: when the sufficient cause is in hand, adding another unsupported cause violates basic historical method and parsimony.

If, as you now say, “non-human source is not even a hinge matter,” you have affirmed my position. Either the origin claim is irrelevant, in which case it should be dropped from argument and from appeals to authority, or it is relevant—Paul uses it to legitimize doctrine and to overrule rivals—in which case it must meet public evidential standards. It meets none. You cannot treat the claim as non-hinge when evidence is requested and as hinge when authority is asserted. On the evidential record, the content stands or falls as human reasoning; the “not of human origin” claim adds no testable consequence and therefore carries no weight in public assessment.

And that further demonstrates that your focus remains on the question of whether Paul was divinely inspired or not.

Do you have experience with inspiration? Do you understand the relationship between inspiration and understanding? Based on the available evidence, neither seems to be the case. I think it is possible for a person who has no experience with inspiration to come to comprehend the relationship between inspiration and understanding. Do you know what is the first necessary condition which must be met before the development of such a comprehension can commence?

I focus on origin when you or Paul use it as a warrant for authority; that is precisely when it must be tested. Separately, I’ve already evaluated his ethics as human reasoning—coherent in places, contestable in others—without invoking the supernatural. Both tasks are legitimate: assess the content on its human merits, and reject an unsupported claim of non-human origin when it’s advanced to trump rivals.

Personal experiences—mine, yours, Paul’s—are irrelevant to the evidential status of a public claim. People across incompatible traditions report “inspiration”; that ubiquity shows it is a common human state, not a discriminator of divine causation. The first necessary condition for any serious comprehension here is conceptual clarity: define “inspiration” operationally and specify what observable consequences would distinguish “divine inspiration” from normal cognition and creativity. Without those discriminators, appeals to inspiration collapse into private psychology and cannot bear the weight of “not of human origin.” Understanding can and should proceed by analyzing arguments, language, historical context, and effects; none of those require or reveal a non-human source.

Sheesh! Still another demonstration that your focus remains on the question of the actuality of divine inspiration and more specifically whether Paul was divinely inspired or not.

I focus on origin because Paul uses origin as a warrant for authority and boundary-setting. When a writer claims “not of human origin” and leverages that claim to overrule rivals, origin becomes a public thesis that must meet public evidence. Whether an ethic is predominant or minority has no bearing on causation; a view can be distinctive and still be entirely human. The letters themselves—language, genre, argument style, and transmission—are fully accounted for by known human sources. Distinct emphasis does not convert a humanly intelligible program into a supernaturally sourced one.

This is where you would say, "You have conceded my point." What is essential is the development of understanding.

Development of understanding matters for personal appropriation; it does not validate a claim of non-human origin. If you want “understanding” to be the only essential, then the revelation claim is dispensable and should be dropped from argument and from appeals to authority. If you keep using it to legitimate doctrine and demand deference, then it must be evidenced with discriminating, public criteria. None exist. So the only consistent path is this: assess Paul’s ideas as human reasoning on their merits, and treat “not of human origin” as a private belief with no standing in public evaluation.

And just as a final reminder, this discussion originated regarding the allegedly divine inspiration and the gospel Paul preached. You have not moved the discussion off of that point. What has been repeatedly noted - and not just by me - is that the gospel preached is something other than, something distinct from, Paul's engagement with rivals.

The bottom line is that your focus is - and has always been - on whether Paul was ever actually divinely inspired, and that means you never did begin to try to understand. Oh, and you have not decisively demonstrated that Paul was not divinely inspired. It is unfortunate that you do not appreciate the fact that this failure on your part is of no significance. You do not understand the insignificance, because you do not understand that even an indubitable proof of divine inspiration is of no significance from even a religious perspective, since it it always the furthered development of understanding (not rote thought) on the part of individuals which is most essential and desired from that perspective.

The distinction collapses in Paul’s own letters. The very passages where he defines and defends his “gospel” are the ones where he anchors its legitimacy in “not of human origin” and uses that claim to invalidate rival teachings. In Galatia and Corinth, content and warrant are fused: he advances doctrine and, in the same breath, invokes revelation to trump competitors. That makes origin integral to the argument, not a detachable side issue. Testing the origin claim is therefore mandatory whenever it is used to secure the gospel’s authority. On publicly checkable grounds—language, genre, argumentation, and a human transmission record—there is nothing to distinguish a non-human source from ordinary composition and community polemic. Bracket the origin claim and the ideas are fully analyzable as human ethics and theology; keep the claim and it must be evidenced, which it isn’t.

Understanding a text does not require accepting its self-authorization, and I have engaged Paul’s arguments as human reasoning throughout. As to proof, the burden lies with whoever asserts a departure from normal causes. I do not need to “prove not-inspired”; you need to show a discriminating marker that would separate “divinely inspired” from “humanly composed.” None has been offered: there are no independent contemporaneous witnesses to the revelation, no verifiable predictions recorded ahead of fulfillment, no textual features or transmission pattern that exceed ordinary human processes. Your own position makes the claim unfalsifiable and then declares it “insignificant.” If it is insignificant, drop it and let the content stand on human reasons alone. If it is significant enough to ground authority and anathematize rivals, it is not insulated from evidential standards. On either fork, the public conclusion is the same: evaluate Paul’s teaching as human; treat “not of human origin” as a private article of faith with no evidential force.

So, I leave the last word to you if you want to have it.

Here it is. Paul’s letters bear human fingerprints from top to bottom: familiar epistolary forms, ordinary rhetoric, and a normal hand-copied transmission with expected variation. Those facts are compatible with many theological interpretations, but they do not verify a non-human source. When origin is used as a warrant, it must be shown by public evidence; when it cannot be shown, it has no standing in public argument. Therefore the rational stance is straightforward and final: take what is valuable in Paul’s ethical counsel and theology as human work, and set aside the origin claim as unfalsifiable and evidentially idle.

NHC
 
take what is valuable in Paul’s ethical counsel and theology as human work, and set aside the origin claim as unfalsifiable and evidentially idle.

B-b-but what about the soopernacherl?
Huh? What about that?
You ignore that part at the peril of your immortal soul!!!
 
I focus on origin when you or Paul use it as a warrant for authority
I'm still letting you have the last word, but it could be better than what is essentially no more than a series of reiterations of the above mistaken statement.

Recall that you said:
My claim is evidential: once we account for human composition and transmission, there remains no independent warrant to accept “not of human origin.”
You see, what you refer to as your claim in the citation immediately above is not restricted to "when (I) or Paul use it as a warrant for authority" (with authority being used there in the demanding deference sense). That earlier, allegedly (more) original claim is far more broadly applied than is your more recent restricted claim, the first one cited above. As I have told you on multiple occasions, the restricted version of your claim is a different matter than what was at issue when you made your "My claim is evidential" claim. Never mind that your original claim was deficient inasmuch as at no time did the issue regard warrant for accepting the "not of human origin" claim.

The fact that you stuck that "you" in the statement about origin as warrant for authority in the demanded deference sense re-confirms that you are significantly self-unaware of what is your focus, and it re-confirms that you are evidently not particularly interested in understanding the understandings of others. Of course, you are not required to be interested in understanding the understanding of anyone else.

Recall what Arendt said about love possessing "an unequaled power of self-revelation". That power follows from charity. You seem to stress charity as an ingredient for the building of community, but it is far more basic and far more important than that. It is only with charity that anyone develops an understanding about the understanding had by an other, and, in order for that process to be charitable, it necessitates analysis and awareness on the part of the would-be charitable person regarding that person's own assumptions, preferences, expressions, understandings, proclivities, and the like. In that way, charity serves to better reveal the self to the self.

Without charity, you cannot discuss. You can only argue. Dedication to being adversarial is a dedication to being uncharitable. It is also a feature of apologetics. A dedication to being adversarial might not be sufficient to preclude the development of understanding, but it certainly makes accidental the attainment of any such understanding.
 
I'm still letting you have the last word, but it could be better than what is essentially no more than a series of reiterations of the above mistaken statement.

My claim is evidential: once we account for human composition and transmission, there remains no independent warrant to accept ‘not of human origin.’”

That statement stands and has been consistent from the start. It has two layers. First, in general: when a text’s language, genre, argumentation, and manuscript history are fully explained by ordinary human processes, there is no remaining explanatory gap that requires a non-human cause. Second, in the specific case where Paul uses “not of human origin” to ground authority over rivals, the same evidential standard applies even more strictly, because the claim is being used to bind others. Both layers are compatible, not contradictory: the general evidential deficit persists, and when the claim is used as warrant it must be tested; it still fails. Nothing in your objection touches that core.

You see, what you refer to as your claim in the citation immediately above is not restricted to "when (I) or Paul use it as a warrant for authority" (with authority being used there in the demanding deference sense). That earlier, allegedly (more) original claim is far more broadly applied than is your more recent restricted claim, the first one cited above. As I have told you on multiple occasions, the restricted version of your claim is a different matter than what was at issue when you made your "My claim is evidential" claim. Never mind that your original claim was deficient inasmuch as at no time did the issue regard warrant for accepting the "not of human origin" claim.

Nothing has been “restricted”; I’ve clarified scope, not shifted it. The broad claim addresses the historical question: there is no independent corroboration for “not of human origin,” and the documents exhibit only human fingerprints. The focused claim addresses the normative use of that assertion: when it is deployed to trump rivals, it becomes a public premise and must meet public criteria. Saying “the issue did not regard warrant” ignores Paul’s own practice: he repeatedly invokes origin precisely as warrant. Even if you declare origin “immaterial,” its evidential status remains a legitimate historical question—and on that question, there is no discriminating evidence for a non-human source.

The fact that you stuck that "you" in the statement about origin as warrant for authority in the demanded deference sense re-confirms that you are significantly self-unaware of what is your focus, and it re-confirms that you are evidently not particularly interested in understanding the understandings of others. Of course, you are not required to be interested in understanding the understanding of anyone else.

I have repeatedly engaged Paul’s “understanding” through his actual texts—summarizing his arguments, aims, and ethical counsel—and I have separated appraisal of content from appraisal of origin. Interpreting fairly does not mean waiving evidential standards. Understanding what an author claims and requires is step one; asking for independent warrant when a non-human cause is asserted is step two. Doing step two is not “self-unaware”; it is how public reasoning works.
Recall what Arendt said about love possessing "an unequaled power of self-revelation". That power follows from charity. You seem to stress charity as an ingredient for the building of community, but it is far more basic and far more important than that. It is only with charity that anyone develops an understanding about the understanding had by an other, and, in order for that process to be charitable, it necessitates analysis and awareness on the part of the would-be charitable person regarding that person's own assumptions, preferences, expressions, understandings, proclivities, and the like. In that way, charity serves to better reveal the self to the self.

Interpretive charity means steelmanning the other side’s best case. I’ve done that by treating Paul’s ethic and community guidance as serious human proposals and by granting that private experiences may motivate sincere belief. But charity does not replace evidence. It cannot turn a private conviction into a public fact, and it cannot excuse a claim of non-human origin from needing independent support. The charitable reading of Paul yields exactly my conclusion: evaluate his counsel on its human merits; do not pretend a self-reported revelation binds outsiders without corroboration.

Without charity, you cannot discuss. You can only argue. Dedication to being adversarial is a dedication to being uncharitable. It is also a feature of apologetics. A dedication to being adversarial might not be sufficient to preclude the development of understanding, but it certainly makes accidental the attainment of any such understanding.

Demanding publicly checkable reasons is not “adversarial”; it is the baseline for honest discussion. I’ve granted everything that can be granted without evidence: Paul’s sincerity, the psychological power of inspiration, and the value of many of his ethical exhortations. What I do not grant is the leap from private experience to public, non-human causation. If “not of human origin” is kept as a personal confession, it has no bearing on public argument. If it is used to claim authority over others, it must be evidenced. On the record we possess, it is not. Hence the conclusion remains, unchanged and precise: take what is valuable in Paul’s ethics and theology as human work; set aside the origin claim as unfalsifiable and evidentially idle.

NHC
 
Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
Or maybe you mean...the ancient Hebrews or ancient Israelites, or... can we technically say ancient Hebrew-ism before there was Judaism?🙂

Mass murder of babies e.g.. sacrificing babies to Molech or Baal was quite normal for many nations back then - Gods enemies in defiance.

So when Yahweh murdered babies and kittens he was just acting morally like all the other gods of the region.
 
Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
Or maybe you mean...the ancient Hebrews or ancient Israelites, or... can we technically say ancient Hebrew-ism before there was Judaism?🙂

Mass murder of babies e.g.. sacrificing babies to Molech or Baal was quite normal for many nations back then - Gods enemies in defiance.

That is not good,says God.

We 'should comprehend' the simple 'conceptual understanding' that an 'All Mighty God' should be able to see this...as a continuous generational abomination far into the future. For these particular nations who defied God in this way, have been judged - they no longer exist, sacrificing babies.

As described, we have God killing people and ordering slaughter and genocide.
 
Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
Or maybe you mean...the ancient Hebrews or ancient Israelites, or... can we technically say ancient Hebrew-ism before there was Judaism?🙂

Mass murder of babies e.g.. sacrificing babies to Molech or Baal was quite normal for many nations back then - Gods enemies in defiance.

So when Yahweh murdered babies and kittens he was just acting morally like all the other gods of the region.
So, to understand your moral clarity. Am I understanding correctly that when for example: people in court are sent to death for murder or when for example the allies in WW2 dropped bombs on Germany as retaliation, or, just any sort of killing,regardless of whether it be in self-defence or plain rivalry...
...do you mean killing, the ending of a life are ALL equal to murder?

Simply...
...I don't agree with your anti-god atheistic perspective, hence naturally, by your applying murder to God...just renders your response, a foreign conception and language I can't really reply to, in the same way or opinion that you purposely like God of the bible to be.
 
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Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
Or maybe you mean...the ancient Hebrews or ancient Israelites, or... can we technically say ancient Hebrew-ism before there was Judaism?🙂

Mass murder of babies e.g.. sacrificing babies to Molech or Baal was quite normal for many nations back then - Gods enemies in defiance.

That is not good,says God.

We 'should comprehend' the simple 'conceptual understanding' that an 'All Mighty God' should be able to see this...as a continuous generational abomination far into the future. For these particular nations who defied God in this way, have been judged - they no longer exist, sacrificing babies.

As described, we have God killing people and ordering slaughter and genocide.
Sure, I can speak your lingo. God kills people as do judges in your Western civilization. Is it murder?
 
Yeah sure... but where's the conflicting argument to Christianity? Thousands of years before "predating Buddha " Christianity tells us 'Good verus evil' (to do good) existed then, and acknowledges this was long before Christianity too.

It sounds like you are going back to Judaism, but doing things like mass murder of babies and kittens isn't "good."
Or maybe you mean...the ancient Hebrews or ancient Israelites, or... can we technically say ancient Hebrew-ism before there was Judaism?🙂

Mass murder of babies e.g.. sacrificing babies to Molech or Baal was quite normal for many nations back then - Gods enemies in defiance.

That is not good,says God.

We 'should comprehend' the simple 'conceptual understanding' that an 'All Mighty God' should be able to see this...as a continuous generational abomination far into the future. For these particular nations who defied God in this way, have been judged - they no longer exist, sacrificing babies.

As described, we have God killing people and ordering slaughter and genocide.
Sure, I can speak your lingo. God kills people as do judges in your Western civilization. Is it murder?
Yes, it is.

Civilised nations (including DBT's home nation) do not have capital punishment.

Killing is morally acceptable only in defence of oneself or others, and even then, only against imminent threats to life.

At no point is God's life, or anyone else's life, threatened by people being homosexual, or practicing witchcraft, or failing to keep the sabbath, or engaging in prostitution (specifically for priest's daughters, other prostitutes don't necessarily heve to be killed), or adultery, or contempt of court. Yet God commands death for all of these things.

Of course, this is because the God depicted in the Bible is morally monstrous and irredeemably cruel and evil. It's a good thing he's entirely fictional.
 
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