Fat-shaming, fat acceptance, and 'body diversity'.

[ronburgundy]

,

Fight for the body you want to have!...Let go of whatever made you fat!...You're in the right frame of mind!...You can do it!...

Sorry, but this is the kind of "fat is a symptom of a deeper problem" bullshit I was talking about. What if what made him fat is that food is fucking delicious and that enjoying simple pleasures in life is what sane people do and its a kind of celebration of what it means to be human, including a celebration of human ability to create such amazing dishes? Should he let go of his valuing of life's simple pleasures in favor of the narcissistic obsession with how others perceive him that drives the majority of fitness nuts to the gym everyday? If anything, people who deny themselves food pleasures and spend everyday at the gym are more likely to have a misplaced values and psychological issues than overweight people.
Living for pleasure while not hurting others is as noble and well lived as a life gets, and it is not a "better" choice to hold off on certain pleasure now to invest it in the probability of more future pleasures. It's a gamble and a trade-off, and a matter of preference as to when and how one deposits or withdraws from their pleasure account.

Metaphor, of course you are not happy about being fat, but are you happy despite being fat? Do the behaviors that make you fat give you joy and pleasure? If so, then your fatness is not a psychological problem, but a byproduct of a healthy pleasure seeking mind in a modern world where pleasure giving foods are in near endless supply. Your fatness poses a pragmatic trade-off that you need to treat like investing for retirement. If you live for tomorrow, it may not ever come no matter what you do. But you can make sensible modest trade-offs that if/when the future comes it is more pleasurable.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Things are being said in this thread that do not need to be said. This thread ain't about lettuce, ain't about dairy, and most importantly it ain't about y'all. it ain't about how lucky you are, how perfectly disciplined and healthy you are, how you will never have to worry about getting obese.

Now I know you all mean well but what you say isn't necessarily what people hear. And what is heard is the important thing. Telling someone how disciplined and wise you are can be heard by the people listening as how undisciplined and foolish they are. And that just make a body want wanna talk to our good friend Sara Lee.

A fellow poster needs help, not testimonials to our own greatness.

Let us help him.

So helping doesn't include using personal experience and how we have personally managed?

One thing I've noticed in the past in threads like this, a few people don't like to hear that other people are in shape because of work and sacrifice. They rather believe that people are "just lucky".

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Things are being said in this thread that do not need to be said. This thread ain't about lettuce, ain't about dairy, and most importantly it ain't about y'all. it ain't about how lucky you are, how perfectly disciplined and healthy you are, how you will never have to worry about getting obese.

Now I know you all mean well but what you say isn't necessarily what people hear. And what is heard is the important thing. Telling someone how disciplined and wise you are can be heard by the people listening as how undisciplined and foolish they are. And that just make a body want wanna talk to our good friend Sara Lee.

A fellow poster needs help, not testimonials to our own greatness.

Let us help him.

So helping doesn't include using personal experience and how we have personally managed?

One thing I've noticed in the past in threads like this, a few people don't like to hear that other people are in shape because of work and sacrifice. They rather believe that people are "just lucky".

Actually Jimmy, no.

Your personal experience is far removed from that of a morbidly obese person and you have gone to great lengths to let everyone reading this know exactly that.

I know you think you are helping, but I don't think you are.

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

Seriously, Jimmy, what do you think you have shared here that metaphor and everyone else here hasn't already heard?

 

[Bronzeage]

So helping doesn't include using personal experience and how we have personally managed?

One thing I've noticed in the past in threads like this, a few people don't like to hear that other people are in shape because of work and sacrifice. They rather believe that people are "just lucky".

Actually Jimmy, no.

Your personal experience is far removed from that of a morbidly obese person and you have gone to great lengths to let everyone reading this know exactly that.

I know you think you are helping, but I don't think you are.

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

Seriously, Jimmy, what do you think you have shared here that metaphor and everyone else here hasn't already heard?

Is there some secret which has never been revealed to morbidly obese people?

 

[TSwizzle]

Things are being said in this thread that do not need to be said. This thread ain't about lettuce, ain't about dairy, and most importantly it ain't about y'all. it ain't about how lucky you are, how perfectly disciplined and healthy you are, how you will never have to worry about getting obese.

A fellow poster needs help, not testimonials to our own greatness.

Let us help him.

What is the thread about ? It seems to have morphed into a support topic and should probably be moved. The OP, I thought, was more about "fat shaming" and the shrill feminists that put forth an argument that being well overweight is somehow attractive, to be celebrated and somehow healthy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So helping doesn't include using personal experience and how we have personally managed?

One thing I've noticed in the past in threads like this, a few people don't like to hear that other people are in shape because of work and sacrifice. They rather believe that people are "just lucky".

Actually Jimmy, no.

Your personal experience is far removed from that of a morbidly obese person and you have gone to great lengths to let everyone reading this know exactly that.

Five or six posts (a few of which were about vegetables) is now great lengths?

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

I haven't actually said any of that, so you can callback that retort. I've already noted a couple of times, a metabolism can be more something you are born and stuck with.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Actually Jimmy, no.

Your personal experience is far removed from that of a morbidly obese person and you have gone to great lengths to let everyone reading this know exactly that.

Five or six posts (a few of which were about vegetables) is now great lengths?

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

I haven't actually said any of that, so you can callback that retort. I've already noted a couple of times, a metabolism can be more something you are born and stuck with.

What have you shared that people did not already know?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Five or six posts (a few of which were about vegetables) is now great lengths?

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

I haven't actually said any of that, so you can callback that retort. I've already noted a couple of times, a metabolism can be more something you are born and stuck with.

What have you shared that people did not already know?

Likewise?

 

[Axulus]

Iceberg lettuce doesn't have a taste... other than water. It has a crunchy consistency.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive.

Seriously? Saying spinach is better to eat than iceberg lettuce makes me higher than thou?

Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

You are joking right?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Your post here is no different to others you gave made in this thread. I, personally, find them condescending.

What part, that spinach is a better food than iceberg lettuce? That portion size control is important? That my body shape is a result of arduous exercise and eating choices I made, not "being lucky"? The part that indicated that portion control is a choice and a body's metabolism is less of a choice?

Which part exactly is condescending?

It was the tone and implication of your post that was basically: "yuck! You eat iceberg lettuce? That stuff is disgusting and of little nutritional value. Eat spinach instead."

 

[Warpoet]

What happened to the formal debates subforum? Maybe we could get this whole lettuce vs spinach thing sorted out once and for all.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Iceberg lettuce doesn't have a taste... other than water. It has a crunchy consistency.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive.

Seriously? Saying spinach is better to eat than iceberg lettuce makes me higher than thou?

Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

You are joking right?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Your post here is no different to others you gave made in this thread. I, personally, find them condescending.

What part, that spinach is a better food than iceberg lettuce? That portion size control is important? That my body shape is a result of arduous exercise and eating choices I made, not "being lucky"? The part that indicated that portion control is a choice and a body's metabolism is less of a choice?

Which part exactly is condescending?

It was the tone and implication of your post that was basically: "yuck! You eat iceberg lettuce? That stuff is disgusting and of little nutritional value. Eat spinach instead."

Holy fuck! I had no idea such a statement would be taken so poorly.

I'll leave now and keep from derailing this thread any more than my initial statement on the futility of iceberg lettuce has already.

 

[Thomas II]

,

Fight for the body you want to have!...Let go of whatever made you fat!...You're in the right frame of mind!...You can do it!...

Sorry, but this is the kind of "fat is a symptom of a deeper problem" bullshit I was talking about. What if what made him fat is that food is fucking delicious and that enjoying simple pleasures in life is what sane people do and its a kind of celebration of what it means to be human, including a celebration of human ability to create such amazing dishes? Should he let go of his valuing of life's simple pleasures in favor of the narcissistic obsession with how others perceive him that drives the majority of fitness nuts to the gym everyday? If anything, people who deny themselves food pleasures and spend everyday at the gym are more likely to have a misplaced values and psychological issues than overweight people.
Living for pleasure while not hurting others is as noble and well lived as a life gets, and it is not a "better" choice to hold off on certain pleasure now to invest it in the probability of more future pleasures. It's a gamble and a trade-off, and a matter of preference as to when and how one deposits or withdraws from their pleasure account.

Metaphor, of course you are not happy about being fat, but are you happy despite being fat? Do the behaviors that make you fat give you joy and pleasure? If so, then your fatness is not a psychological problem, but a byproduct of a healthy pleasure seeking mind in a modern world where pleasure giving foods are in near endless supply. Your fatness poses a pragmatic trade-off that you need to treat like investing for retirement. If you live for tomorrow, it may not ever come no matter what you do. But you can make sensible modest trade-offs that if/when the future comes it is more pleasurable.

Using your hedonistic point of view, your statement does not relate to what Metaphor said, since he said he is not happy with the way he looks and feels. Therefore, he is NOT deriving pleasure from being fat.
He's gonna have to weigh the pleasure from eating certain foods and on the other side the pleasure from being happy with his body.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Five or six posts (a few of which were about vegetables) is now great lengths?

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

I haven't actually said any of that, so you can callback that retort. I've already noted a couple of times, a metabolism can be more something you are born and stuck with.

What have you shared that people did not already know?

Likewise?

I asked metaphor if he wanted to know how I reduced my dress size. I then said I would tell him if he wanted to know and I wouldn't if he didn't.

You volunteered information that he has mostly likely heard before in some form or another.

See the difference?

 

[ronburgundy]

Sorry, but this is the kind of "fat is a symptom of a deeper problem" bullshit I was talking about. What if what made him fat is that food is fucking delicious and that enjoying simple pleasures in life is what sane people do and its a kind of celebration of what it means to be human, including a celebration of human ability to create such amazing dishes? Should he let go of his valuing of life's simple pleasures in favor of the narcissistic obsession with how others perceive him that drives the majority of fitness nuts to the gym everyday? If anything, people who deny themselves food pleasures and spend everyday at the gym are more likely to have a misplaced values and psychological issues than overweight people.
Living for pleasure while not hurting others is as noble and well lived as a life gets, and it is not a "better" choice to hold off on certain pleasure now to invest it in the probability of more future pleasures. It's a gamble and a trade-off, and a matter of preference as to when and how one deposits or withdraws from their pleasure account.

Metaphor, of course you are not happy about being fat, but are you happy despite being fat? Do the behaviors that make you fat give you joy and pleasure? If so, then your fatness is not a psychological problem, but a byproduct of a healthy pleasure seeking mind in a modern world where pleasure giving foods are in near endless supply. Your fatness poses a pragmatic trade-off that you need to treat like investing for retirement. If you live for tomorrow, it may not ever come no matter what you do. But you can make sensible modest trade-offs that if/when the future comes it is more pleasurable.

Using your hedonistic point of view, your statement does not relate to what Metaphor said, since he said he is not happy with the way he looks and feels. Therefore, he is NOT deriving pleasure from being fat.

Actually, I noted he was not deriving pleasure from being fat (see underlined part), but that is a separate issue from whether he is generally happy and derives pleasure from the activities (eating) that make him fat. Every aspect of life has trade-offs. Doing or having things we like often require or result in some things we do not like. People like owning a house, but don't like paying property taxes which (under current laws) is an unavoidable by-product of owning a house.
If he could wish his fat away and yet still be able to have the pleasure of eating and avoid the displeasure of daily workouts, surely he would. But if he would not wish his fat away if it required giving up much of that pleasure and taking on displeasure of working out, then it means by definition that he derives more net pleasure from a life where he is overweight than the lifestyle that would be required of him to be fit. It is perfectly rational for him to not to give up a more pleasurable life for a less pleasurable one. He just needs to decide how much currently daily pleasure he is willing to trade away for investing in future pleasures.

He's gonna have to weigh the pleasure from eating certain foods and on the other side the pleasure from being happy with his body.

Yes, and there is nothing wrong or dysfunctional about favoring food pleasure over pleasure related to being more fit. In fact, fitness pleasure that is derived from conforming to other's expectations or avoiding shame is what is psychologically unhealthy. That pleasure can be regained without weight loss by realizing you shouldn't give a flying fuck what the shallow morons who put that much stock into appearances think of you. IF you can't find a good mate, that is one thing. But otherwise, fuck em. A bit of fat and "ugliness" is a useful tool for screening the shallow assholes out of your life.
A psychologically healthy reason to sacrifice some food pleasure for some fitness pleasure is the real and direct biological impact on happiness that it would have on his mood and extra years to enjoy. Basically, imagine that everyone magically saw you as ideally fit, no matter your actual fitness. Whatever pleasure trade-off you'd still do then, is what you should do now to achieve optimal pleasure in life.

 

[Thomas II]

Using your hedonistic point of view, your statement does not relate to what Metaphor said, since he said he is not happy with the way he looks and feels. Therefore, he is NOT deriving pleasure from being fat.

Actually, I noted he was not deriving pleasure from being fat (see underlined part), but that is a separate issue from whether he is generally happy and derives pleasure from the activities (eating) that make him fat. Every aspect of life has trade-offs. Doing or having things we like often require or result in some things we do not like. People like owning a house, but don't like paying property taxes which (under current laws) is an unavoidable by-product of owning a house.
If he could wish his fat away and yet still be able to have the pleasure of eating and avoid the displeasure of daily workouts, surely he would. But if he would not wish his fat away if it required giving up much of that pleasure and taking on displeasure of working out, then it means by definition that he derives more net pleasure from a life where he is overweight than the lifestyle that would be required of him to be fit. It is perfectly rational for him to not to give up a more pleasurable life for a less pleasurable one. He just needs to decide how much currently daily pleasure he is willing to trade away for investing in future pleasures.

He's gonna have to weigh the pleasure from eating certain foods and on the other side the pleasure from being happy with his body.

Yes, and there is nothing wrong or dysfunctional about favoring food pleasure over pleasure related to being more fit. In fact, fitness pleasure that is derived from conforming to other's expectations or avoiding shame is what is psychologically unhealthy. That pleasure can be regained without weight loss by realizing you shouldn't give a flying fuck what the shallow morons who put that much stock into appearances think of you. IF you can't find a good mate, that is one thing. But otherwise, fuck em. A bit of fat and "ugliness" is a useful tool for screening the shallow assholes out of your life.
A psychologically healthy reason to sacrifice some food pleasure for some fitness pleasure is the real and direct biological impact on happiness that it would have on his mood and extra years to enjoy. Basically, imagine that everyone magically saw you as ideally fit, no matter your actual fitness. Whatever pleasure trade-off you'd still do then, is what you should do now to achieve optimal pleasure in life.

I just wish Metaphor the best on his quest for happiness, however he chooses to pursue it...And I wish you the same thing.

 

[Axulus]

My body will never look like Sergei Polunin's. But that doesn't mean his body isn't far closer to ideal than mine.

But how do we minimize the mental health toll and the enormous economic cost (that provides little benefit when it comes to fad diets, for example) incurred by those who consider their body ugly and unattractive, whether rightly or wrongly?

You do agree that when people are constantly bombarded by images of the ideal body, some of which is fake (due to editing), they tend to feel less attractive/less beautiful, which, in a large number of cases, harms their mental health and where they are willing to shell out tens of billions every year because of it and may even develop mental illness? What is the best strategy to combat that? Rightly or wrongly, at least the feminists you talk about are trying to reduce the harm caused by people who feel ugly/unattractive by making them feel less so. The question is, are they being effective?

 

[Toni]

My body will never look like Sergei Polunin's. But that doesn't mean his body isn't far closer to ideal than mine.

But how do we minimize the mental health toll and the enormous economic cost (that provides little benefit when it comes to fad diets, for example) incurred by those who consider their body ugly and unattractive, whether rightly or wrongly?

You do agree that when people are constantly bombarded by images of the ideal body, some of which is fake (due to editing), they tend to feel less attractive/less beautiful, which, in a large number of cases, harms their mental health and where they are willing to shell out tens of billions every year because of it and may even develop mental illness? What is the best strategy to combat that? Rightly or wrongly, at least the feminists you talk about are trying to reduce the harm caused by people who feel ugly/unattractive by making them feel less so. The question is, are they being effective?

Don't forget that 'ideal' body type is very culture and era specific.

 

[TSwizzle]

My body will never look like Sergei Polunin's. But that doesn't mean his body isn't far closer to ideal than mine.

I'd never heard of Sergei Polunin before so I checked out the video. How much closer do you think his body is to ideal ? How realistic is it to expect any average person to get anywhere close to Sergei's physique ? To get to Sergie's type of physique, which is unique to a dancer, is a full time job, it's his career, it's his life and he has been at it since he could walk. That body would fat shame me !

There's nothing wrong with being a bit out of shape but if you have lost control and unhappy, you should get medical treatment, lap band or something might help.

 

[TV and credit cards]

,

Fight for the body you want to have!...Let go of whatever made you fat!...You're in the right frame of mind!...You can do it!...

Sorry, but this is the kind of "fat is a symptom of a deeper problem" bullshit I was talking about. What if what made him fat is that food is fucking delicious and that enjoying simple pleasures in life is what sane people do and its a kind of celebration of what it means to be human, including a celebration of human ability to create such amazing dishes? Should he let go of his valuing of life's simple pleasures in favor of the narcissistic obsession with how others perceive him that drives the majority of fitness nuts to the gym everyday? If anything, people who deny themselves food pleasures and spend everyday at the gym are more likely to have a misplaced values and psychological issues than overweight people.
Living for pleasure while not hurting others is as noble and well lived as a life gets, and it is not a "better" choice to hold off on certain pleasure now to invest it in the probability of more future pleasures. It's a gamble and a trade-off, and a matter of preference as to when and how one deposits or withdraws from their pleasure account.

Metaphor, of course you are not happy about being fat, but are you happy despite being fat? Do the behaviors that make you fat give you joy and pleasure? If so, then your fatness is not a psychological problem, but a byproduct of a healthy pleasure seeking mind in a modern world where pleasure giving foods are in near endless supply. Your fatness poses a pragmatic trade-off that you need to treat like investing for retirement. If you live for tomorrow, it may not ever come no matter what you do. But you can make sensible modest trade-offs that if/when the future comes it is more pleasurable.

But part of sanity is realizing that your body, if not maintained to at least some degree, has the ability to flip your switch off. Morbid obesity qualifies. To hell with vanity. Gym people suck. But we should all be concerned with our blood work. Comprehensive blood, to my knowledge, is the best and most accessible gauge of our health. Pleasure is fine but when pleasure morphs into obsession, pleasure is bad. Morbid obesity is a prime indicator that this morphing has occurred. Morbid obesity degrades quality of life, not a very pleasurable experience.
What I have recommended is trying to change behaviors. To learn to love healthy food. To find pleasure in it. I found over time that mushrooms and to some extent beans to be a fair psychological substitute for beef. A good (easy) starting point to changing behaviors is dairy, a source of saturated fat we can all live without, IMHO. Or just cheese. Cheese is exceedingly popular in this country. Win that battle and it may give a person the courage to pick a fight with ice cream. It can be a long slough, this changing of behaviors and it's not going to go the same for all of us, but what is the alternative?

 

[Metaphor]

First off, credit to the OP for his willingness to make an uncomfortable public admission. I wish more people had the courage to talk this frankly about things.

That said, this seems to me like it is largely a non-issue. The thrust of it seems to focus on attractiveness, and self-delusion as to how traits (like obesity) affect it. But so what? People do this all time. Take weight out of the equation entirely; there are lots of people who are unattractive for other reasons, and may have even fewer options to change it. Should they tell themselves that they're hideous and unlikely to find companionship? Is that what their friends and family should tell them? There are definitely cases where self-delusion is dangerous (my employees won't mind if I make them all work overtime, my husband is an abusive alcoholic but it's not a big deal, et cetera). But I don't see perceptions of personal attractiveness as one of them.

As for the media, fuck the media. It is toxic in most respects, body image being just one of them. I can't even count all the attractive women I've known who were convinced that they were fat and ugly because of the photoshopped crap they see on magazine covers, or T.V. shows that make out slightly overweight characters to be morbidly obese, et cetera. I think some lowering of the absurd standards it sets would be positive.

I have no dog in this fight. Obesity is not at all a concern for me and probably never will be. I think I do OK in terms of overall looks. But I just don't see the issue here. There is a health aspect at play, but that doesn't really seem to be what this is about. I will have to second what others have said: make peace with it even if you want to change it. And fuck what anyone else has to say about it.

The problem is not "the media", or at least, the media is not my problem. But there are two sets of opinions that are very much my problem.

The first is that being morbidly obese negatively affects my job prospects, whether from conscious or unconscious bias on the part of employers, and perhaps from unconscious behaviours I myself engage in, due to my obesity. I did pretty well at university, and some members of my current team at work have expressed astonishment that I'm at such a low level (relatively speaking, in terms of the public service).

The second set of opinions that really do matter are the opinions of gay men in my potential age-range datingwise (which I've placed at 18-50), since it is their perceptions of my attractiveness that will determine my chances of finding, at long last, a long term boyfriend. I can't tell them they're unfair for not wanting to date me, because I wouldn't date me (I'm a great fat friend, though).

So 'fuck what anyone else has to say about it' sounds nice in theory, but it's just not a reality.