How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

I wasn’t aware the US was attempting to colonize Russia…

Of course you weren't.

The only ones who want to colonize Russia is China and they haven't made a secret of it. When this war is over, Russia will have to rebuild its oil and gas infrastructure. China will pay for it, which is to say, China will own it.

The worst thing you can do to someone who can't pay their debt is to stop lending them money.

Russia will have no choice but to become a vassal state of China.

Deranged falsehoods and projections.

In another month, Russia is not going to have an operating oil refinery, although we may not get videos of them burning against the night sky, since your government has shut down phone access to the internet.

Unlike ordinary Russians, you will still have a reliable internet connection and you know how desperate the situation is.

What are you snorting?

 

[barbos]

Meanwhile corruption scandal in Ukro-regime government is getting bigger. People are getting arrested an running to Israel. Defense minister implicated in multiple schemes but not yet arrested decided to go abroad and not eager to return flying from one country to another with meaningless visits.

 

[barbos]

 

[TV and credit cards]

What is the cost of stopping a belligerent nation from attacking another?

If Trump's peace plan is rebuffed, would he, as is his wont, go so far as to stop the sale of weapons to Europe for the defense of Ukraine? Should Zelensky then pin his hopes on the US Congress forcing support of Ukraine upon Trump? There is that possibility.
What of all those horrors perpetrated upon the Ukrainian people. Shouldn't Zelensky think of the mothers who have lost their children to war and acquiesce?
Blood thirsty tyrants do not stop. When they control an entire nation, the immorality and illegality of their actions are swept away.
It is for no one else to say but the Ukrainian people whether of not it is worth the thousands of lives today to save tens of thousands tomorrow.
Let the mothers of Ukraine decide.

Trump’s Peace Plan. Copied from Duck Duck AI.

 

[crazyfingers]

From what I've read Trump again appears to be trying to throw Ukraine under the bus and rewarding Russia for starting this war.

 

[bilby]

What of all those horrors perpetrated upon the Ukrainian people. Shouldn't Zelensky think of the mothers who have lost their children to war and acquiesce?

Not until he thinks of the mothers who will lose their children to ethnic cleansing if he acquiesces.

It is for no one else to say but the Ukrainian people whether of not it is worth the thousands of lives today to save tens of thousands tomorrow.
Let the mothers of Ukraine decide.

There seems no reason to believe that capitulating to Putin would save more Ukrainian lives than it costs.

 

[bilby]

Trump’s Peace Plan. Copied from Duck Duck AI.

Just saying, for such information, using a traditional (non-AI) search engine result gets you the exact same thing, but without the risk of errors introduced by AI 'hallucinations'.

IMO it's worth the minuscule effort to scroll down past the AI generated results in Google to avoid that risk. I don't know whether DDG has a similar way to skip the AI nonsense.

 

[barbos]

LOL
It says:

Ukraine is the first country in the world which couldn't finish building Nazi State because jews stole all the money

 

[barbos]

Speaking of the recent corruption scandal. Ukro-regime people say now that corruption is better than Russian rule
And apparently EU critters explicitly agree.

 

[barbos]

What of all those horrors perpetrated upon the Ukrainian people. Shouldn't Zelensky think of the mothers who have lost their children to war and acquiesce?

You mean by T-Ts-K?

 

[TV and credit cards]

‘Witkoff needs a psychiatrist’: Europeans fume at Trump’s plan to profit from frozen Russian assets

But the United States’ new includes a rival idea for using those same assets for American-led reconstruction efforts once a truce has been agreed. The U.S. would take “50 percent” of the profit from this activity, the document said.

One senior EU official in Brussels scoffed at the idea and noted that whatever he wants, Trump has no power to unfreeze assets held in Europe. An official from an EU government resorted to colorful swearing to express their dismay, while a senior EU politician said: “Witkoff needs to see a psychiatrist.”

Well I hope this one ends up in the things having the opposite effect category and it pisses Belgium off enough to hop off the fence.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If Trump's peace plan is rebuffed, would he, as is his wont, go so far as to stop the sale of weapons to Europe for the defense of Ukraine?

Well of course he would.
Before I could even catch my breath...

Trump said on Friday that he expected Zelenskiy to sign onto the plan by the Thanksgiving holiday. The U.S. has warned Ukraine it could curb military assistance if it does not sign, Reuters has reported.

Trump officials’ meeting with Russian in Miami spurs questions about latest Ukraine proposal
So it was a sanctioned fucking Russian, Kirill Dmitriev who needed special permission just to get in the country, Kushner, and Witkoff.
"What, no Secretary of State?"
No.
"He wasn't even aware of the plan?"
Looks highly doubtful.

"This so-called ‘peace plan’ has real problems, and I am highly skeptical it will achieve peace," said Senator Roger Wicker of Mississippi, the Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "Ukraine should not be forced to give up its lands to one of the world’s most flagrant war criminals in Vladimir Putin."

 

[ZiprHead]

LOL
It says:

Ukraine is the first country in the world which couldn't finish building Nazi State because jews stole all the money

You think that's funny? Just seems like something a nazi would say.

Oh, wait. A Russian said it so nazi confirmed.

 

[barbos]

LOL
It says:

Ukraine is the first country in the world which couldn't finish building Nazi State because jews stole all the money

You think that's funny? Just seems like something a nazi would say.

Oh, wait. A Russian said it so nazi confirmed.

Oh, now we can't make fun of corruption?

 

[barbos]

‘Witkoff needs a psychiatrist’: Europeans fume at Trump’s plan to profit from frozen Russian assets

But the United States’ new includes a rival idea for using those same assets for American-led reconstruction efforts once a truce has been agreed. The U.S. would take “50 percent” of the profit from this activity, the document said.

One senior EU official in Brussels scoffed at the idea and noted that whatever he wants, Trump has no power to unfreeze assets held in Europe. An official from an EU government resorted to colorful swearing to express their dismay, while a senior EU politician said: “Witkoff needs to see a psychiatrist.”

Well I hope this one ends up in the things having the opposite effect category and it pisses Belgium off enough to hop off the fence.

LOL, Europeans profit from stealing russian assets too. Trump is just more direct about his desire.

 

[bilby]

LOL
It says:

Ukraine is the first country in the world which couldn't finish building Nazi State because jews stole all the money

You think that's funny? Just seems like something a nazi would say.

Oh, wait. A Russian said it so nazi confirmed.

Oh, now we can't make fun of corruption?

Sure you can.

But any "joke" with the punchline "jews stole all the money" is an antisemitic non-joke that only a nazi would tell in the post-Holocaust world.

Your "joke" is 80 years past its use-by date.

 

[crazyfingers]

‘Witkoff needs a psychiatrist’: Europeans fume at Trump’s plan to profit from frozen Russian assets

But the United States’ new includes a rival idea for using those same assets for American-led reconstruction efforts once a truce has been agreed. The U.S. would take “50 percent” of the profit from this activity, the document said.

One senior EU official in Brussels scoffed at the idea and noted that whatever he wants, Trump has no power to unfreeze assets held in Europe. An official from an EU government resorted to colorful swearing to express their dismay, while a senior EU politician said: “Witkoff needs to see a psychiatrist.”

Well I hope this one ends up in the things having the opposite effect category and it pisses Belgium off enough to hop off the fence.

It's so disgusting how Trump always bends over for Putin to throw Ukraine under the bus (while this time also looking to make a windfall profit.) The guy is detestable. Does Trump have no idea how Putin is playing Trump as a sucker? Does Trump have no idea how foolish he always appears when he lets Putin sucker him?

 

[crazyfingers]

For trying once again to throw Ukraine under the bus, Trump should get the Neville Chamberlain Peace Price.

Finally, finally, President Trump just might get a peace prize that would secure his place in history. Unfortunately, though, it is not that Nobel peace prize he so covets. It is the “Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize” — awarded by history to the leader of the country that most flagrantly sells out its allies and its values to an aggressive dictator.

This prize richly deserves to be shared by Trump’s many “secretaries of state” — Steve Witkoff, Marco Rubio and Dan Driscoll — who together negotiated the surrender of Ukraine to Vladimir Putin’s demands without consulting Ukraine or our European allies in advance — and then told Ukraine it had to accept the plan by Thanksgiving.

...more


..if this plan is forced on Ukraine as is, we will need to add a new verb to the diplomatic lexicon: “Trumped” — to be sold out by an American president, for reasons none of his citizens understand (but surely there are reasons). And history will never forget the men who did it — Donald Trump, Steve Witkoff, Marco Rubio, Dan Driscoll — for their shame will be everlasting.

Opinion | Trump’s Proposed Ukraine ‘Deal’ Is a Disgrace

If Ukraine is forced to surrender to these terms by Thursday, Thanksgiving will no longer be an American holiday. It will become a Russian holiday.

www.nytimes.com

 

[bilby]

As I understand it, this "plan" requires amongst other things:

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

I don't think that Donald Trump or the USA have the authority to tell NATO to do either bolded thing, and I would be disappointed if NATO were to agree to do them.

I am no expert in the way NATO manages such things, but surely one member (even one as dominant as the US) cannot dictate such things to the entire organisation without the agreement of at least a majority of member nations; If my memory serves, changes to NATO policy actually require a unanimous vote amongst member states.

So this is Trump demanding not only that Ukraine must do as they are told, but also that NATO must - and while he may be able to use the threat of withdrawing support from Ukraine to threaten Ukraine into capitulation, that threat seems unlikely to sway every single NATO member.

It's typical Trump "diplomacy" - he has no clue how complex the situation is, nor how little authority he has to change things.

 

[crazyfingers]

As I understand it, this "plan" requires amongst other things:

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

I don't think that Donald Trump or the USA have the authority to tell NATO to do either bolded thing, and I would be disappointed if NATO were to agree to do them.

I am no expert in the way NATO manages such things, but surely one member (even one as dominant as the US) cannot dictate such things to the entire organisation without the agreement of at least a majority of member nations; If my memory serves, changes to NATO policy actually require a unanimous vote amongst member states.

So this is Trump demanding not only that Ukraine must do as they are told, but also that NATO must - and while he may be able to use the threat of withdrawing support from Ukraine to threaten Ukraine into capitulation, that threat seems unlikely to sway every single NATO member.

It's typical Trump "diplomacy" - he has no clue how complex the situation is, nor how little authority he has to change things.

Yes. Trump thinks that he can dictate to all. Fuck him.

Also, all that Russian money that's impounded that would be used to rebuild Ukraine is held by Belgium as part of the EU. That's the money that Trump wants a 50% profit on.

I don't think that Trump gets to tell Belgium to give the US 50% profit.

Trump is scum. He has his Russian loving envoy Steve Witkoff (who blamed the war on Ukraine) make a deal exceptionally favorable to Russia and ignores Europe and Ukraine. Scumbag

Europeans finally get seat at Trump’s table for Ukraine peace talks

Von der Leyen’s right-hand man Bjoern Seibert is expected to put the EU’s case at a crunch meeting starting Sunday in Switzerland.

www.politico.eu