Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson

[Rhea]

It's normal for a cop to write as many tickets as they can for the situation, even when they know they aren't going to hold up. (I've gotten insurance and registration tickets when the paperwork wasn't in the glove compartment for some reason--the cop knew things were actually current.) It's not singling out poor people.

What the hell? No, it's not normal. It's fascist. If my cops did that I would fire them. And the judge would absolutely let me know if it were happening.

Maybe for a major crime you want to cover all the bases. But for a traffic stop? Absolutely not. This is just plain wrong and untrue. Any police department that works that way I have no respect for. Like the Ferguson dept. No. shit no, that is not "normal."

Judge? Around here if you get one of those tickets and your papers were actually ok you don't even need to go before the judge. It's just a long line to talk to a clerk, show them the paperwork and they dismiss it on the spot.

Well this DOJ report is not about your "around here." So your county is different from mine. That doesn't make it achingly obvious to you that perhaps Ferguson, MO is also different from Las Vegas? Your personal experience is not the universal experience of people. And yeah, in my area you MUST go before a judge to deal with a ticket in any way that does not include, "Yes, sir, here is your money."

And I will say again, if any cop in my department was issuing 8 citations for ridiculous bogus things on a regular basis to motorists, especially if it were only for the ones who are black, I would fire them. It is _not_ normal. It is wrong nine ways to Sunday. Fascist, bullying, sociopathic.

I can't believe you are supporting that kind of abuse. "normal to write tickets even if they aren't going to hold up," seriously? SERIOUSLY?

 

[Rhea]

We also reviewed many instances in which FPD officers arrested individuals who sought to care for loved ones who had been hurt. In one instance from May 2014, for example, a man rushed to the scene of a car accident involving his girlfriend, who was badly injured and bleeding profusely when he arrived. He approached and tried to calm her. When officers arrived they treated him rudely, according to the man, telling him to move away from his girlfriend, which he did not want to do. They then immediately proceeded to handcuff and arrest him, which, officers assert, he resisted. EMS and other officers were not on the scene during this arrest, so the accident victim remained unattended, bleeding from her injuries, while officers were arresting the boyfriend. Officers charged the man with five municipal code violations (Resisting Arrest, Disorderly Conduct, Assault on an Officer, Obstructing Government Operations, and Failure to Comply) and had his vehicle towed and impounded.

He should have moved away when so ordered.

[...]
Again, we do not know exactly what happened there. But it is general not a good idea to ignore commands by police. Also there is no indication that he was Red Cross certified or attempted to render any actual aid.

I am surprised, genuinely surprised, that you would think it was wrong for a person holding their bleeding girlfriend to question the command to move away. And to then turn your conversation to how proper it was to restrain the guy from calming his badly bleeding girlfriend, and not give any attention at all to the fact that the cops let the woman lie there and did nothing for her.

That didn't ring any bells in your head? Didn't trigger one little neuron to think, "and yeah they were assholes for pulling him away from her and double assholes for not replacing his ministrations with their own." I'm watching your responses here and you don't have one sentence to spare for the plight of the badly bleeding woman. The gap is glaring. Not one word for that. But all kinds of thoughts for how the man should have left her to bleed so he could comply with a nonsensical command by apparently callous cops.

Plenty of disdain for the obvious human response of not leaving an injured girlfriend to bleed, and not one question about why the cops would even ask him to get away if they weren't going to provide aid? Why did he have to move, you don't wonder that? I do. If the cops were going to render aid, then do it. But if you're not, then you prevent the one person who is rendering aid, any kind of aid, even if it is comfort is better than zero aid, which is what the cops provided? WTF? That's not a WTF moment to you?

Who gives a shit about how far away is the ambulance, why would you force the woman to bleed alone for even a second if her boyfriend was there to give her comfort? Who would do that?

What's your thought about why the cops would remove the person giving comfort and not replace it with any aid at all?
Do you think that is kind of callous and inhumane?

 

[Derec]

I swear some people would have trouble finding racism at a Klan rally.

May be indeed getting more difficult. The Ku Klux Klan opens its door to Jews, homosexuals and black people in bizarre recruitment drive

 

[Derec]

I am surprised, genuinely surprised, that you would think it was wrong for a person holding their bleeding girlfriend to question the command to move away. And to then turn your conversation to how proper it was to restrain the guy from calming his badly bleeding girlfriend, and not give any attention at all to the fact that the cops let the woman lie there and did nothing for her.

That didn't ring any bells in your head? Didn't trigger one little neuron to think, "and yeah they were assholes for pulling him away from her and double assholes for not replacing his ministrations with their own." I'm watching your responses here and you don't have one sentence to spare for the plight of the badly bleeding woman. The gap is glaring. Not one word for that. But all kinds of thoughts for how the man should have left her to bleed so he could comply with a nonsensical command by apparently callous cops.

Plenty of disdain for the obvious human response of not leaving an injured girlfriend to bleed, and not one question about why the cops would even ask him to get away if they weren't going to provide aid? Why did he have to move, you don't wonder that? I do. If the cops were going to render aid, then do it. But if you're not, then you prevent the one person who is rendering aid, any kind of aid, even if it is comfort is better than zero aid, which is what the cops provided? WTF? That's not a WTF moment to you?

Who gives a shit about how far away is the ambulance, why would you force the woman to bleed alone for even a second if her boyfriend was there to give her comfort? Who would do that?

What's your thought about why the cops would remove the person giving comfort and not replace it with any aid at all?
Do you think that is kind of callous and inhumane?

I do not know if this was part of policy or if the cops acted on their own accord. And if done by policy, I do not know if its a good one. But I can indeed think of potential reasons they would not let him stay, for example possibility of contamination of a potential crime scene or liability for letting civilians do anything with an injured person.

In any case, for this anecdote to count as an example of racism you would have to show that Ferguson police let white boyfriends enter crash scenes and give comfort to their injured white girlfriends.

 

[untermensche]

I do not know if this was part of policy or if the cops acted on their own accord. And if done by policy, I do not know if its a good one. But I can indeed think of potential reasons they would not let him stay, for example possibility of contamination of a potential crime scene or liability for letting civilians do anything with an injured person.

In any case, for this anecdote to count as an example of racism you would have to show that Ferguson police let white boyfriends enter crash scenes and give comfort to their injured white girlfriends.

You're defending callousness and inhumanity and power run amok.

The police are supposed to be serving us, not ruling us as mindless machines devoid of normal human emotion.

 

[bleubird]

It's like some members of this board did not get enough hugs as children.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I am surprised, genuinely surprised, that you would think it was wrong for a person holding their bleeding girlfriend to question the command to move away. And to then turn your conversation to how proper it was to restrain the guy from calming his badly bleeding girlfriend, and not give any attention at all to the fact that the cops let the woman lie there and did nothing for her.

That didn't ring any bells in your head? Didn't trigger one little neuron to think, "and yeah they were assholes for pulling him away from her and double assholes for not replacing his ministrations with their own." I'm watching your responses here and you don't have one sentence to spare for the plight of the badly bleeding woman. The gap is glaring. Not one word for that. But all kinds of thoughts for how the man should have left her to bleed so he could comply with a nonsensical command by apparently callous cops.

Plenty of disdain for the obvious human response of not leaving an injured girlfriend to bleed, and not one question about why the cops would even ask him to get away if they weren't going to provide aid? Why did he have to move, you don't wonder that? I do. If the cops were going to render aid, then do it. But if you're not, then you prevent the one person who is rendering aid, any kind of aid, even if it is comfort is better than zero aid, which is what the cops provided? WTF? That's not a WTF moment to you?

Who gives a shit about how far away is the ambulance, why would you force the woman to bleed alone for even a second if her boyfriend was there to give her comfort? Who would do that?

What's your thought about why the cops would remove the person giving comfort and not replace it with any aid at all?
Do you think that is kind of callous and inhumane?

I do not know if this was part of policy or if the cops acted on their own accord.

But you believe they took the right action despite not knowing? It's pretty unusual for first responders on the scene to prohibit aid or comfort or allow a person to bleed.

And if done by policy, I do not know if its a good one. But I can indeed think of potential reasons they would not let him stay, for example possibility of contamination of a potential crime scene or liability for letting civilians do anything with an injured person.

What crime was committed in the case above to warrant a crime scene? I mean are they supposed to let victims bleed out to preserve a potential crime scene?

In any case, for this anecdote to count as an example of racism you would have to show that Ferguson police let white boyfriends enter crash scenes and give comfort to their injured white girlfriends.

Where in the report does it say the couple was African-American?

 

[Rhea]

I do not know if this was part of policy or if the cops acted on their own accord. And if done by policy, I do not know if its a good one. But I can indeed think of potential reasons they would not let him stay, for example possibility of contamination of a potential crime scene or liability for letting civilians do anything with an injured person.

See what you did there? Went right back to speculating why it would be okay to let a person who is badly bleeding lie there alone while her boyfriend seeks to comfort her.

Let me write that again, slowly, so my point is crystal clear.

Person bleeding badly from car accident, lying there alone, bleeding.
And you are speculating what possible things could make this all right.
Instead of wondering what the hell the cops were thinking to let a badly bleeding person lie there alone while her boyfriend was RIGHT THERE wanting to give comfort until the ambulance arrives.

Would do this with a mother and child, too? Let the baby just lie there bleeding and expect mother to go, "oh, okay, I'll just stand over here and watch until YOU think it's okay for me to go to my kid"?


Notice what thing you think is worth assuming. That the cops were right here. To let a person, who is bleeding badly, lie there while you arrest her boyfriend.

I notice in the charges that he is charged with NOTHING that happened prior to the cops making a stupid dangerous decision. All of the charges are from his actions AFTER the cops, for some weird and unknown reason that neither of us can really speculate, tried to make him leave the side of his badly bleeding girlfriend when the ambulance and assistance were not there yet.

You and I are speculating about opposite things.

 

[RavenSky]

EMTs were presumably on their way. The anecdote doesn't mention anything about him being qualified or attempting to render any treatment.

It doesn't take any special training to put a compress on a bleeding wound. And even if you want to pretend that the cop felt the guy was not qualified to render any aid, then the cop should have been helping the woman instead of harassing the guy

I am certified by the Red Cross to provide various minor forms of emergency assistance until EMT's arrive. Are you suggested that I should be arrested for doing so because a cop orders me away for no good reason?

Again, we do not know exactly what happened there. But it is general not a good idea to ignore commands by police. Also there is no indication that he was Red Cross certified or attempted to render any actual aid.

It is generally not a good idea for cops to let accident victims bleed out because they are too busy harassing the black man either.

Would you jump of a very tall roof just because a cop orders it?

 

[RavenSky]

Isn't the whole point of the thread how issuing tickets for things like that to black people, as well as issuing bench warrants when they ignore them, is "racist".

Loren merely pointed out that you do not have to be black to be on the receiving end of such tickets.

I will repeat, unless you have any factual evidence that I personally have claimed "racism" if "a black person... ignored the ticket and got a warrant because of it." If you are unable to point to a post wherein I, personally, said anything like that, then you owe me an apology.

Note: No one alleged he WAS, which is the requirement under the law.

The way I understood it is not that they dispute that the music was too loud, but that a third party didn't complain about it. Apparently they think that a police officer is not allowed to make a determination of too loud music himself but has to wait for a third-person complaint. That is a very peculiar interpretation of the ordnance and if Ferguson's ordnance indeed says that it would not be very common as far as I know. Usually police is empowered to ticket too-loud music blasters without someone else complaining.

Then your understanding of Ferguson's ordinance is faulty

Moreover, your use of scare quotes around the work 'music' says a lot about you and your position in this (and similar) threads.

I am not deaf and know what kind of noise gets blared out of cars on a regular basis around here. It's never good music.

Your use of scare quotes around the word 'music' says a lot about you and your position in this (and similar) threads.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I am not deaf and know what kind of noise gets blared out of cars on a regular basis around here. It's never good music.

I too hate Smooth Jazz.

 

[Derec]

I am not deaf and know what kind of noise gets blared out of cars on a regular basis around here. It's never good music.

I too hate Smooth Jazz.

Regardless of race of the driver, the music blared too loudly out of cars is almost always some sort of hip-hop.

There's even a picture of you.

 

[Derec]

I will repeat, unless you have any factual evidence that I personally have claimed "racism" if "a black person... ignored the ticket and got a warrant because of it." If you are unable to point to a post wherein I, personally, said anything like that, then you owe me an apology.

If you really don't believe that than I am sorry. However, "they get warrants because they missed a court date" has been an argument about how horrible Ferguson is since the MB shooting on here.

Then your understanding of Ferguson's ordinance is faulty

Enlighten us then.

Your use of scare quotes around the word 'music' says a lot about you and your position in this (and similar) threads.

As I said to the squirrely one, it's almost always hip-hop regardless of the race of the driver. Inconsiderate, asshole-ish drivers are definitely strongly correlated to drivers who like hip-hop.
I do not know what my dislike for hip-hop says about me particularly.

 

[Derec]

It doesn't take any special training to put a compress on a bleeding wound. And even if you want to pretend that the cop felt the guy was not qualified to render any aid, then the cop should have been helping the woman instead of harassing the guy

Which they could have done if they didn't have to waste time arresting the boyfriend.

Would you jump of a very tall roof just because a cop orders it?

Because that's exactly the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

See what you did there? Went right back to speculating why it would be okay to let a person who is badly bleeding lie there alone while her boyfriend seeks to comfort her.

I do not know if they did the right thing or wrong. I am just listing possible reasons why they might have wanted him, an uninvolved civilian, away from the scene.

 

[RavenSky]

I too hate Smooth Jazz.

Regardless of race of the driver, the music blared too loudly out of cars is almost always some sort of hip-hop.

Or rock, or EDM, or classical, or country, or...

Lots of people play their music really loud. Note, no scare quotes.

 

[Derec]

But you believe they took the right action despite not knowing? It's pretty unusual for first responders on the scene to prohibit aid or comfort or allow a person to bleed.

I do not know if it was the right action. But police officers could provide first aid if they didn't have to deal with people entering the scene of the accident.

What crime was committed in the case above to warrant a crime scene? I mean are they supposed to let victims bleed out to preserve a potential crime scene?

Possibly something like DUI would definitely be a crime, especially if the drunk driver caused injuries.
And to forestall your objection, I do not know there was a DUI, which is why I wrote "potential crime scene".

Where in the report does it say the couple was African-American?

The whole premise of this thread/DOJ action is that Ferguson police are racist. If the people in this anecdote weren't even black, then what's the relevance to the thesis?

 

[RavenSky]

Which they could have done if they didn't have to waste time arresting the boyfriend.

which they could have done withOUT arresting the boyfriend. You think arresting the boyfriend on bullshit charges is more important than giving first aid to an accident victim?

Would you jump of a very tall roof just because a cop orders it?

Because that's exactly the same thing.

Basically, yes. A bad order is a bad order, but to hear you tell it everyone must obey every cop order whether it is a bad one or not.

Do you apply the same faulty reasoning to commanders in war situations too? Against whistleblowers in corporations or government positions?

 

[Frikki]

I swear some people would have trouble finding racism at a Klan rally.

May be indeed getting more difficult. The Ku Klux Klan opens its door to Jews, homosexuals and black people in bizarre recruitment drive

Did your club get many takers?

 

[Arctish]

It doesn't take any special training to put a compress on a bleeding wound. And even if you want to pretend that the cop felt the guy was not qualified to render any aid, then the cop should have been helping the woman instead of harassing the guy

Which they could have done if they didn't have to waste time arresting the boyfriend.

which they could have done withOUT arresting the boyfriend.

Exactly! This is not an either/or situation. The boyfriend can comfort the injured woman while the cops render aid as they all wait for the EMTs to arrive. The cops didn't have to be assholes, they just were.

 

[ZiprHead]

What amazes me isn't so much the racism (I could have told you that last August - and probably did), it's the sheer incompetence. Warrants that just vanish, speeding tickets with no speeds filled in, detainment and violence records that vary from sparse to nonexistent, a woman who is told that they'll send her a court date, schedule the date, fail to notify her in anyway, and then cancel her license when she misses the date, people who are turned away repeatedly when they show up to pay fines and tickets, a Municipal court that lacks any transparency, and on and on. They'e apparently not even good at the robberies they're supposed to be doing.

I heard on a radio discussion that a guy was cited for giving false information because he said his name was Mike and not Michael. Totally ridiculous.

ETS, oops, I see I've been ninja'd by somebody already on this.