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According to Robert Sapolsky, human free will does not exist

One interesting fact is that because compatibilist definitions are clearly coherent and operate within the comfortable and obserbable axioms of math, they come along as a part of any physics which accords on some broad scale to those axioms.

Something that is probably true under the axioms we have doesn't become false under additional axioms. That's not how it works.

So there's no way "libertarians" or "fatalists" having their own definitions would make compatibilists in any way wrong about the truth of what they observe constricted from the solid metaphysics of math.

If the acceptance of the definitions of libertarians and fatalists alike would invalidate those conclusions, given the fact that those conclusions are acknowledged as valid under most proposed axioms of math, that merely invalidates the definitions offered by the Fatalists and Libertarians as containing a violation of logic.

But the fact that we can engineer autonomous systems and make discussions about what is "true" about them with regards to their autonomy and responsibility in ongoing state changes of a more "global" structure gets us at least that far.
 
Is it possible for a person to believe that the Earth is flat now that we have mathematical proof of its circular shape?
YES!

Not only is it possible, it's quite common. People are really, really good at believing shit that has been proven false.
This has nothing to do with his discovery.
Then why was he wasting our time with it?
He didn't have to be exact to get across his point.
Maybe not. It wouldn't hurt though.

He also said that 98% of mankind believes man's will is free. Are you going to pick on him because he said 98%, which you may disagree with?
That depends; Was it a part of his thesis, or just more pointless timewasting?
Your tone is hard to stomach. I’m passing on this one.
You mean, you don't have an answer, because I am right; So you are using "tone" as an escape hatch from your failure.
This is what is going to delay this knowledge from being brought to light if people respond like you,
Yup. Getting people to believe nonsense often founders on peoples reluctance to accept nonsense, or timewasting.
Again, you are refuting something you have no understanding of. WTF!
On the contrary, I am refuting the exact words you posted, which you represent as part of his argument.

Indeed a major part of my point here is that he is wrong in what he says. If it is part of his argument, then he is wrong; If it is not a part of his argument then he is a time-waster, and still wrong (even before he gets to his actual argument).

That's not going to persuade any sensible person to wade through his crap in the vague hope that one day he might get to the point and say something that isn't demonstrably false.
only to start an argument so they can be right.
You have that bass-ackwards; I am starting an argument because he is wrong.

Demonstrably wrong.
Nope. he was not wrong. We can never prove free will true for the reasons given.
He didn't claim that. He claimed that he could prove it to be untrue, which is a much harder claim to defend. And his "reasons" were nonsense.
If you don’t like it, lump it!
Believing shit that ain't so is practically our defining feature as a species.
You are not exempt from believing shit bilby.
I never for a minute suggested that I was.
That’s not how you come off.
Meh, it's easy to come off as a fool to a monomaniacal believer in shit that ain't so. It would worry me if you didn't think badly of me - your epistemology is that bad.
The only reason we still have opinions on both sides of this subject is because we don’t know for a mathematical fact whether the will of man is or is not free.
This here is the central failing of your entire position. This is NOT the ONLY reason (and even the most cursory study of reality would tell anyone who cares to know that that is the case).
What cursory study of reality are you talking about?
Look around. If you can't find someone who believes something that is provably false, you ain't trying very hard. Maybe check in your mirror?
All you are doing is accepting the status quo. You are not inquisitive enough to even open your mind to the possibility that he may have something of true significance.
Your dad had a woefully inadequate understanding of humanity if he could write that shit in all apparent seriousness.

And from such foundations, only a woefully inadequate set of ideas can arise.
All you are doing is making trivial points as if they matter in terms of his proof.
No, I am pointing out the fundamental flaws you don't want to admit to.
You haven’t understood anything
Sure I have. I understood that he was wrong to use the shape of the Earth as an example of a fact on which everybody is agreed.
or read anything,
I read his rhetorical question, in which he made a fool of himself despite conversing with a fictional adversary into whose mouth he could place any words he chose. That's impressively inept.
so how can you point out fundamental flaws? 😠
"Hey, look everybody, there's a fundamental flaw!".
It appears you have no desire to read or understand the important point he was making because you didn't even address it or have any relevant questions.
I directly adressed what he said. If that wasn't important, that's on him, wasting our time with trivia.
Focusing on a triviality is a distraction, nothing more.
And yet, you posted this waste of time that you now call "triviality".
Even if there are people who believe the earth is flat, this has nothing to do with his demonstration as to why man’s will is not free
Then why is he (and you) wasting our time with it?
and how this knowledge can benefit our world!
If it could, it would. It hasn't, because it doesn't. Shit, it's not even knowledge; It is a false assertion, as I have shown.
If you want to use this comment against him, go ahead.
I did, am, and shall; With or without your permission.
GO FIGURE!!! This truth may cause people to squirm if they believe man has free will.
The truth isn't something you would recognize if it bit you on the ass.
Your snarky responses will get you nowhere.
And yet, you seem convinced that they will get you somewhere.
I give people enough credit to see through you.
I note from your abject failure to sell your book that most people demonstrate an ability to see through you. They don't need my credit or advice for that.
Sorry about that but I refuse to back down because of people like bilby who have pegged me as someone not to take seriously. :mad:
You have ably demonstrated that you are someone not to take seriously. All I have done is point it out.

I note that you have not even attempted to refute my criticism; You probably should do so, if you want to be taken seriously.
Your criticism isn’t worth refuting because there is nothing to refute. If you conclude from that one statement that his discovery must be flawed, then this book is not for you. 🤷‍♀️
The book is not for anyone with enough brain cells to see the obvious flaws, or with enough of a life to avoid obvious time-wasters.
 
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One interesting fact is that because compatibilist definitions are clearly coherent and operate within the comfortable and obserbable axioms of math, they come along as a part of any physics which accords on some broad scale to those axioms.

Something that is probably true under the axioms we have doesn't become false under additional axioms. That's not how it works.

So there's no way "libertarians" or "fatalists" having their own definitions would make compatibilists in any way wrong about the truth of what they observe constricted from the solid metaphysics of math.

If the acceptance of the definitions of libertarians and fatalists alike would invalidate those conclusions, given the fact that those conclusions are acknowledged as valid under most proposed axioms of math, that merely invalidates the definitions offered by the Fatalists and Libertarians as containing a violation of logic.

But the fact that we can engineer autonomous systems and make discussions about what is "true" about them with regards to their autonomy and responsibility in ongoing state changes of a more "global" structure gets us at least that far.


Regardless of definitions, the fact is that it is the state and condition of a brain that determines thought and action in any given instance of decision making.

Which is why you (the brain) may make a decision and take an action that is regretted a moment later. The lament, had you known then what you know now, but of course it's too late, available information, time and the events of the world have moved on.

The term 'free will' has no neural or cognitive basis.


''I don't think "free will" is a very sensible concept, and you don't need neuroscience to reject it -- any mechanistic view of the world is good enough, and indeed you could even argue on purely conceptual grounds that the opposite of determinism is randomness, not free will! Most thoughtful neuroscientists I know have replaced the concept of free will with the concept of rationality -- that we select our actions based on a kind of practical reasoning. And there is no conflict between rationality and the mind as a physical system -- After all, computers are rational physical systems! - Martha Farah, director of the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Cognitive Neuroscience and a prominent neuroethicist.
 
Is it possible for a person to believe that the Earth is flat now that we have mathematical proof of its circular shape?
YES!

Not only is it possible, it's quite common. People are really, really good at believing shit that has been proven false.
This has nothing to do with his discovery.
Then why was he wasting our time with it?
He didn't have to be exact to get across his point.
Maybe not. It wouldn't hurt though.

He also said that 98% of mankind believes man's will is free. Are you going to pick on him because he said 98%, which you may disagree with?
That depends; Was it a part of his thesis, or just more pointless timewasting?
Your tone is hard to stomach. I’m passing on this one.
You mean, you don't have an answer, because I am right; So you are using "tone" as an escape hatch from your failure.
This is what is going to delay this knowledge from being brought to light if people respond like you,
Yup. Getting people to believe nonsense often founders on peoples reluctance to accept nonsense, or timewasting.
Again, you are refuting something you have no understanding of. WTF!
On the contrary, I am refuting the exact words you posted, which you represent as part of his argument.

Indeed a major part of my point here is that he is wrong in what he says. If it is part of his argument, then he is wrong; If it is not a part of his argument then he is a time-waster, and still wrong (even before he gets to his actual argument).

That's not going to persuade any sensible person to wade through his crap in the vague hope that one day he might get to the point and say something that isn't demonstrably false.
only to start an argument so they can be right.
You have that bass-ackwards; I am starting an argument because he is wrong.

Demonstrably wrong.
Nope. he was not wrong. We can never prove free will true for the reasons given.
He didn't claim that. He claimed that he could prove it to be untrue, which is a much harder claim to defend. And his "reasons" were nonsense.
If you don’t like it, lump it!
Believing shit that ain't so is practically our defining feature as a species.
You are not exempt from believing shit bilby.
I never for a minute suggested that I was.
That’s not how you come off.
Meh, it's easy to come off as a fool to a monomaniacal believer in shit that ain't so. It would worry me if you didn't think badly of me - your epistemology is that bad.
The only reason we still have opinions on both sides of this subject is because we don’t know for a mathematical fact whether the will of man is or is not free.
This here is the central failing of your entire position. This is NOT the ONLY reason (and even the most cursory study of reality would tell anyone who cares to know that that is the case).
What cursory study of reality are you talking about?
Look around. If you can't find someone who believes something that is provably false, you ain't trying very hard. Maybe check in your mirror?
All you are doing is accepting the status quo. You are not inquisitive enough to even open your mind to the possibility that he may have something of true significance.
Your dad had a woefully inadequate understanding of humanity if he could write that shit in all apparent seriousness.

And from such foundations, only a woefully inadequate set of ideas can arise.
All you are doing is making trivial points as if they matter in terms of his proof.
No, I am pointing out the fundamental flaws you don't want to admit to.
You haven’t understood anything
Sure I have. I understood that he was wrong to use the shape of the Earth as an example of a fact on which everybody is agreed.
or read anything,
I read his rhetorical question, in which he made a fool of himself despite conversing with a fictional adversary into whose mouth he could place any words he chose. That's impressively inept.
so how can you point out fundamental flaws? 😠
"Hey, look everybody, there's a fundamental flaw!".
It appears you have no desire to read or understand the important point he was making because you didn't even address it or have any relevant questions.
I directly adressed what he said. If that wasn't important, that's on him, wasting our time with trivia.
Focusing on a triviality is a distraction, nothing more.
And yet, you posted this waste of time that you now call "triviality".
Even if there are people who believe the earth is flat, this has nothing to do with his demonstration as to why man’s will is not free
Then why is he (and you) wasting our time with it?
and how this knowledge can benefit our world!
If it could, it would. It hasn't, because it doesn't. Shit, it's not even knowledge; It is a false assertion, as I have shown.
If you want to use this comment against him, go ahead.
I did, am, and shall; With or without your permission.
GO FIGURE!!! This truth may cause people to squirm if they believe man has free will.
The truth isn't something you would recognize if it bit you on the ass.
Your snarky responses will get you nowhere.
And yet, you seem convinced that they will get you somewhere.
I give people enough credit to see through you.
I note from your abject failure to sell your book that most people demonstrate an ability to see through you. They don't need my credit or advice for that.
Sorry about that but I refuse to back down because of people like bilby who have pegged me as someone not to take seriously. :mad:
You have ably demonstrated that you are someone not to take seriously. All I have done is point it out.

I note that you have not even attempted to refute my criticism; You probably should do so, if you want to be taken seriously.
Your criticism isn’t worth refuting because there is nothing to refute. If you conclude from that one statement that his discovery must be flawed, then this book is not for you. 🤷‍♀️
The book is not for anyone with enough brain cells to see the obvious flaws, or with enough of a life to avoid obvious time-wasters.
 
Is it possible for a person to believe that the Earth is flat now that we have mathematical proof of its circular shape?
YES!

Not only is it possible, it's quite common. People are really, really good at believing shit that has been proven false.
This has nothing to do with his discovery.
Then why was he wasting our time with it?
There could always be people who don't believe in something that has been scientifically proven, but the point he was making is that science, through careful observation, concluded correctly that the Earth is a sphere, which can be used to further human progress. The same thing with determinism. There may be people, even after proof has been established, who believe we have free will, but progress will be made because these individuals will be unable to alter the trajectory toward a world of peace, which will be the ultimate proof of the pudding, which is in the eating.
He didn't have to be exact to get across his point.
Maybe not. It wouldn't hurt though.

He also said that 98% of mankind believes man's will is free. Are you going to pick on him because he said 98%, which you may disagree with?
That depends; Was it a part of his thesis, or just more pointless timewasting?
Your tone is hard to stomach. I’m passing on this one.
You mean, you don't have an answer, because I am right; So you are using "tone" as an escape hatch from your failure.
That's not it at all. I just don't like talking to you because your tone is one of intimidation, which doesn't work with me.
This is what is going to delay this knowledge from being brought to light if people respond like you,
Yup. Getting people to believe nonsense often founders on peoples reluctance to accept nonsense, or timewasting.
Again, you are refuting something you have no understanding of. WTF!
On the contrary, I am refuting the exact words you posted, which you represent as part of his argument.
No bilby. This was a preface. It has nothing to do with his discovery.
Indeed a major part of my point here is that he is wrong in what he says. If it is part of his argument, then he is wrong; If it is not a part of his argument then he is a time-waster, and still wrong (even before he gets to his actual argument).

That's not going to persuade any sensible person to wade through his crap in the vague hope that one day he might get to the point and say something that isn't demonstrably false.
Again, you are bringing in things that have no bearing on his actual discovery, just like someone tried to negate his discovery in the same way because they believed he was wrong when he said 98% of people believe in free will (which was an approximation).
only to start an argument so they can be right.
You have that bass-ackwards; I am starting an argument because he is wrong.

Demonstrably wrong.
Nope. he was not wrong. We can never prove free will true for the reasons given.
He didn't claim that. He claimed that he could prove it to be untrue, which is a much harder claim to defend. And his "reasons" were nonsense.
He first showed that free will can never be proven because, UNDER THE SAME EXACT CONDITIONS, we could have chosen otherwise. Then he claimed that although free will could never be proven and will always remain a theory, determinism can be proven, which would then prove free will, as the opposite of determinism, false.
If you don’t like it, lump it!
Believing shit that ain't so is practically our defining feature as a species.
You are not exempt from believing shit bilby.
I never for a minute suggested that I was.
That’s not how you come off.
Meh, it's easy to come off as a fool to a monomaniacal believer in shit that ain't so. It would worry me if you didn't think badly of me - your epistemology is that bad.
You are very presumptive in your conviction that this knowledge is shit without any knowledge of it other than arguing over trivialities. He was an astute observer and reasoner, which is part of epistemology.

epistemology can include careful observation and reasoning therefrom. It is a branch of philosophy that examines the nature, origin, and limits of knowledge. Epistemology is concerned with how knowledge is acquired, how it is applied, and the reliability of knowledge. It includes careful observation and reasoning as methods of acquiring knowledge. Epistemology is concerned with the sources of knowledge, such as experience, reason, and testimony, and how they can be used to gain knowledge. It also deals with the reliability of knowledge and the limits of knowledge.
The only reason we still have opinions on both sides of this subject is because we don’t know for a mathematical fact whether the will of man is or is not free.
This here is the central failing of your entire position. This is NOT the ONLY reason (and even the most cursory study of reality would tell anyone who cares to know that that is the case).
What cursory study of reality are you talking about?
Look around. If you can't find someone who believes something that is provably false, you ain't trying very hard. Maybe check in your mirror?
I can't find anyone who believes this is provably false, because it's not provably false. Instead of playing these word games with me, put your money where your mouth is, and show me where this knowledge can easily be proven false.
All you are doing is accepting the status quo. You are not inquisitive enough to even open your mind to the possibility that he may have something of true significance.
Your dad had a woefully inadequate understanding of humanity if he could write that shit in all apparent seriousness.

And from such foundations, only a woefully inadequate set of ideas can arise.
All you are doing is making trivial points as if they matter in terms of his proof.
No, I am pointing out the fundamental flaws you don't want to admit to.
You haven’t understood anything
Sure I have. I understood that he was wrong to use the shape of the Earth as an example of a fact on which everybody is agreed.
or read anything,
I read his rhetorical question, in which he made a fool of himself despite conversing with a fictional adversary into whose mouth he could place any words he chose. That's impressively inept.
He didn't make a fool of himself. He tried to make his book reader-friendly and used dialogue to do it. This was the form of his writing, and you are judging him way too harshly based on form. You never got to the meat of his work and are coming to a premature conclusion as a result. Again, if you feel this is a waste of time, then don't participate. I don't want to waste your time and I don't want you to waste mine.
so how can you point out fundamental flaws? 😠
"Hey, look everybody, there's a fundamental flaw!".
It appears you have no desire to read or understand the important point he was making because you didn't even address it or have any relevant questions.
I directly adressed what he said. If that wasn't important, that's on him, wasting our time with trivia.
Focusing on a triviality is a distraction, nothing more.
And yet, you posted this waste of time that you now call "triviality".
Even if there are people who believe the earth is flat, this has nothing to do with his demonstration as to why man’s will is not free
Then why is he (and you) wasting our time with it?
and how this knowledge can benefit our world!
If it could, it would. It hasn't, because it doesn't. Shit, it's not even knowledge; It is a false assertion, as I have shown.
What false assertion other than that one statement that is unrelated to the two principles that lead to his two-sided equation, the core of his discovery. You didn't like that he used the phrase two-sided equation because the word two-sided was already included in the word "equation." But that isn't necessarily true either.

An equation does not always have two sides. In mathematics, the left-hand side (LHS) and right-hand side (RHS) are used to express the equality of two expressions, but it is common to have one side with variables and the other side with constants or numbers. For example, in the equation 3x+5=123x+5=12, 3x3x is on the left side, while 1212 is on the right side. Thus, the presence of two sides is not a requirement for an equation to be valid.
If you want to use this comment against him, go ahead.
I did, am, and shall; With or without your permission.
GO FIGURE!!! This truth may cause people to squirm if they believe man has free will.
The truth isn't something you would recognize if it bit you on the ass.
Your snarky responses will get you nowhere.
And yet, you seem convinced that they will get you somewhere.
I give people enough credit to see through you.
I note from your abject failure to sell your book that most people demonstrate an ability to see through you. They don't need my credit or advice for that.
This book has never been given a thorough analysis. It has never been marketed or promoted anywhere other than discussions on forums that don't even count. Very few people (a handful at best) even know this book exists, so you are wrong again.
Sorry about that but I refuse to back down because of people like bilby who have pegged me as someone not to take seriously. :mad:
You have ably demonstrated that you are someone not to take seriously. All I have done is point it out.

I note that you have not even attempted to refute my criticism; You probably should do so, if you want to be taken seriously.
Your criticism isn’t worth refuting because there is nothing to refute. If you conclude from that one statement that his discovery must be flawed, then this book is not for you. 🤷‍♀️
The book is not for anyone with enough brain cells to see the obvious flaws, or with enough of a life to avoid obvious time-wasters.
I think you have been so hardened by people who make claims that are false, you cannot allow yourself to believe that this knowledge is any different. It's really sad. :(
 
Peacegirl

So you seem to acknowledge your evangelizing is a pointless task, no one will see the profound new discovery, especially if it does not pass scientific scrutiny.

As I said. If you can't get past us here the odds of getting the attention of the science community is slim to none.

So, you have a life long cause to pursue. I guess it keeps you occupied. Motivation, purpose.

Like religion.
 
Peacegirl

So you seem to acknowledge your evangelizing is a pointless task, no one will see the profound new discovery, especially if it does not pass scientific scrutiny.

As I said. If you can't get past us here the odds of getting the attention of the science community is slim to none.

So, you have a life long cause to pursue. I guess it keeps you occupied. Motivation, purpose.

Like religion.
Steve, you are out in left field. If even one person takes the time to study this work, it may spark interest, so please stop the put-downs. Thank you.
 
This responds to Peacegirl's Post No. 1991 (https://iidb.org/threads/according-...ll-does-not-exist.27739/page-100#post-1326318), which provides an excerpt from her father's book, which is said to present a map of the path to achieving world peace. As stated in the excerpts:

"The first step is to prove conclusively, beyond a shadow of doubt, and regardless of any opinions to the contrary, that the will of man is not free.”​

The excerpt in Peacegirl's post consists largely of a fictional colloquy between the author and a rabbi. Aside from the author dubbing himself to be as wise and skillful as Socrates (using the devise of having a third party offer that observation), the colloquy is offered as a proof that it is possible to prove that Free Will does not exist, which the excerpt states to be the first step of the path to world peace.
The way he dialoged has nothing to do with the discovery. You are going to have to separate the two if you are going to get anything out of this book.
Among other problems, the author uses the terms Free Will and Determinism without defining the terms or explaining what the author means by the use of the terms. We all know that different people assign different meanings to these terms, so it is necessary to explain the meanings of the terms in the context of the discussion.
The terms are very clear Steve. If a person could do otherwise given the exact same conditions (which cannot occur because we cannot go back in time), then and only then would his will be free.
Of even greater significance, and separate and apart from the foregoing, the quoted colloquy, if taken at face value, proves that the "first step" of the path to world peace claimed to be shown by the book is impossible to take.
Huh? I don't get what you're saying.
AUTHOR'S CONTENTION NO. 1​

Without plainly or clearly stating it as a syllogism, the author sets forth the building blocks for the following syllogism:

1. If it is impossible to prove the existence of Free Will is true, it is equally impossible to prove the existence of Free Will is false.

2. It is Impossible to prove the existence of Free Will is true.

Therefore

3. It is Impossible to prove the existence of Free Will is false.
That is true. We cannot go back in time. If we can, show me how we can do this other than with a time machine. :D

This syllogism is logically sound based on the stated premises.
Can you put this in a syllogism so I can use it to further the proof? That would be helpful.
AUTHOR'S CONTENTION NO. 2​

"[A]lthough we can never prove free will true or determinism false, there still exists a possibility of proving determinism true or free will false."

The assertion in Contention No. 2 that is is possible to prove the existence of Free Will is false (putatively by proving that Determinism is true) is a direct contradiction to the conclusion of the syllogism developed in Contention No. 1 that "It is Impossible to prove the existence of Free Will is false."
What syllogism is he contradicting? It is possible to prove the existence of free will will always remain a theory. He did not say determinisim, as the opposite of free will, cannot be proven true. These are two separate issues. One, free will cannot be proved because we cannot go back in time. But this does not mean that determinism cannot prove free will, false.
Contention No. 2 also is the result of the fallacy of confusing a necessary condition with a sufficient condition, as explained below with respect to Contention No. 3.
What is a necessary versus a sufficient condition? These are vague terms. This always goes back to the definitions that are conventionally used, which means nothing as far as reality is concerned. Let's concentrate on reality; otherwise, this effort is futile. Anyone can come up with a definition that agrees with their worldview.
AUTHOR'S CONTENTION NO. 3​

The author offers the following two statements:

“If you could prove that determinism is false, wouldn’t this prove free will, which is the opposite of determinism, true? And didn’t we just prove that it is mathematically impossible to prove free will true, which means that it is absolutely impossible to prove determinism false?”

and

"it is mathematically impossible to prove free will true, which means that it is absolutely impossible to prove determinism false"

Through the foregoing two statements, the author (i) equates the falsification of Determinism with the proof of the truth/existence of Free Will, and (ii) equates the falsification of Free Will with proof of the truth/existence of Determinism. As explained below, the foregoing are both false equivalences -- (i) even within Incompatibilism, which posits the impossibility of the concurrent truth/existence of Determinism and Free Will, and (ii) certainly within Compatibilism, which accepts the possibility of the concurrent truth/existence of Determinism and Free Will.
If you define free will as being able to choose otherwise, and we cannot prove this, then free will will remain a theory. They are not both equivalences. Free will fails to prove itself true. That is not the same thing as determinism proving itself true because it doesn't go back in time, which is necessary for proof. It only suggest that determinism can be proven, which would automatically PROVE FREE WILL, FALSE, considering that they are opposites BY DEFINITION. There is no way that free will is compatible with determinism, even though this pisses compatibilists off. They want to have their cake and eat it too. It's not possible. It's either one or the other BY DEFINITION.

The author bases his false equivalences on the assertion that Free Will "is the opposite" of Determinism. In fact, Free Will and Determinism are not "the opposite" of one another -- not even in Incompatibilism. In logic, A and Not A are the opposite of one another. By the same token, the opposite of Free Will is Not Free Will, and the opposite of Determinism is Not Determinism. But, Free Will is not the opposite of Not Determinism and Determinism is not the opposite of Not Free Will.

Within Incompatibilism, the incompatibility of Determinism and Free Will arises from the fact that the falsity/absence of either is a necessary condition to the truth/existence of the other. But Incompatibilism does not posit that the falsity/absence of Determinism or Free Will is a sufficient condition to the truth/existence of the other. The author's mistake is to equate a necessary condition with a sufficient condition, which is a fallacy that is taught in Logic 101. See, e.g., the discussion at https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/confusion-of-necessary.html and https://www.kaptest.com/study/lsat/...roW87IpgcYFTC8OfNpk5SuzF9FLoq03oQ9l6BnpbbTW8n. As explained in the Kaplan LSAT website:

Understanding Necessary and Sufficient Conditions​

Before delving into the specific characteristics and examples of necessary and sufficient conditions, let’s define and differentiate between the two:
Yes, when discussing this knowledge, the necessary condition is a change in environment, which must be present for these principles to work. Without this environmental condition being applied globally, the desired outcome will be impossible (i.e., world peace) because conflict will continue even though every effort is being made to prevent it.
2. Sufficient Condition: A sufficient condition is a condition that guarantees, by its presence alone, the desired outcome. It is sufficient to bring about the desired result, regardless of any other factors.
Bringng about the desired result may be sufficient in certain instances, but it is insufficient to create the kind of world we all long for on a global scale.


AUTHOR'S CONTENTION NO. 4​

The author asserts that the path to world peace begins with proof that Free Will does not exist (or is a false construct). Specifically, the author asserts:

"The first step is to prove conclusively, beyond a shadow of doubt, and regardless of any opinions to the contrary, that the will of man is not free."​

But, the author has already claimed to provide a mathematical proof that it is impossible to prove the existence of Free Will and has also asserted as an axiom that it is mathematically impossible to disprove something that is incapable of being proved.
We cannot prove that free will exists because we cannot go back in time. Determinism, on the other hand, is capable of being proved.
Thus, whether or not proof of the falsity of Free Will is a necessary condition to achieving world peace (as the author asserts), the author has stated both (i) that such proof is impossible, and (ii) that such proof is possible -- thereby setting his entire thesis upon a foundation that he, himself, has built, which is internally inconsistent and logically incoherent.
Not being able to prove free will is not a necessary condition to achieving world peace. Proving that determinism is true and what this means for our benefit IS a necessary condition. Free will cannot be proven true, but that doesn't mean determinism can't, which has not been demonstrated. It feels to me that you and others are threatened by determinism. No one can even wait to hear the explanation before telling me that the author was inconsistent, which he wasn't.
 
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Peacegirl

So you seem to acknowledge your evangelizing is a pointless task, no one will see the profound new discovery, especially if it does not pass scientific scrutiny.

As I said. If you can't get past us here the odds of getting the attention of the science community is slim to none.

So, you have a life long cause to pursue. I guess it keeps you occupied. Motivation, purpose.

Like religion.
Steve, you are out in left field. If even one person takes the time to study this work, it may spark interest, so please stop the put-downs. Thank you.
Left field? Hardly, I play short stop. You ain't getting nothing past me.

The Enlightenment, Marx, Martin Luther, MLK, Gandhi, Nelson Mandala. Buddha, Jesus. All had profound effects.

I did read through what you linked to. My impression was the author was elevating hims self to famous philosophers. Grandiose.

I am not well read, I read Plato. Standard reading. Covered in a philop-shy class.

I expect if I read he book in detail I would find he borrowed a lot of form and content.

A priobem with studying in isolation is you have no context and others to function as a peer review..

Einstein is a good example. He worked on relativity for years while working in a patent office. He had a peer group, informal. At the end before publishing he had a series of formal peer reviews to catch problems, and help from mathematicians. He acknowledged the works of others on which he based his work.

Your father's ideas on delayed vision would never have gotten past a peer review.

Your father worked in isolation and declared himself a revolutionary genius.

Few if any achieve and accomplish without others.
 
Peacegirl

So you seem to acknowledge your evangelizing is a pointless task, no one will see the profound new discovery, especially if it does not pass scientific scrutiny.

As I said. If you can't get past us here the odds of getting the attention of the science community is slim to none.

So, you have a life long cause to pursue. I guess it keeps you occupied. Motivation, purpose.

Like religion.
Steve, you are out in left field. If even one person takes the time to study this work, it may spark interest, so please stop the put-downs. Thank you.
Left field? Hardly, I play short stop. You ain't getting nothing past me.

The Enlightenment, Marx, Martin Luther, MLK, Gandhi, Nelson Mandala. Buddha, Jesus. All had profound effects.
Hopefully this work will join the ranks of those people who contributed so much to our world.
I did read through what you linked to. My impression was the author was elevating hims self to famous philosophers. Grandiose.
You are assuming he didn't have a claim that was worthy of elevating this knowledge to those of famous philosophers. He was not grandiose at all. He was humble.
I am not well read, I read Plato. Standard reading. Covered in a philop-shy class.
So then stop acting as if you know. You just don't, so stop pretending that you do.

It is important to know that this book does not contain a theory but an undeniable equation that can be scientifically proven. It has no biases, prejudices, or ulterior motives — its only concern is in revealing facts about the nature of man never before understood. Furthermore, so as to prevent jumping to conclusions, this book has nothing whatever to do with communism, socialism, capitalism, government, or religion; only with the removal of inaccurate facts that have been passed along from generation to generation in the guise of genuine knowledge. There are those who may be blinded by this mathematical revelation as they come out of Plato’s cave, having lived so many years in the shadows that distorted their beliefs into a semblance of reality — and may deny what they do not understand or don’t want to be true. Just bear in mind that any disagreement can be clarified in such a manner that they will be compelled to say, “Now I understand and agree.” I am about to demonstrate, in a manner our world’s leading scientists will be unable to deny, not only that the mankind system is just as harmonious as the solar system despite all the evil and ignorance that ever existed, but that the inception of the Golden Age cannot commence until the knowledge pertaining to this law is accurately understood. What is about to be revealed is unprecedented. Soon enough everyone will know, without reservation, that mankind is on the threshold of a NEW WORLD prophesied in the Bible that must come to pass out of absolute necessity when this natural law is stamped by the exact sciences with the brevet of truth.
I expect if I read he book in detail I would find he borrowed a lot of form and content.

A priobem with studying in isolation is you have no context and others to function as a peer review..

Einstein is a good example. He worked on relativity for years while working in a patent office. He had a peer group, informal. At the end before publishing he had a series of formal peer reviews to catch problems, and help from mathematicians. He acknowledged the works of others on which he based his work.

Your father's ideas on delayed vision would never have gotten past a peer review.

Your father worked in isolation and declared himself a revolutionary genius.

Few if any achieve and accomplish without others.
This knowledge is far removed from the framework of today's thinking that it will require scientists to keep an open mind before concluding that he had nothing of value. I hope to find a group that will give him a fair and balanced analysis. This is not just for my benefit; it's for everyone's benefit.
 
I want to move on.

<snip>

Therefore, whatever your reasons for believing free will to be true cannot be accurate since proof of this theory requires going back in time, so to speak, and demonstrating that man could have chosen otherwise. Since it is utterly impossible to reverse the order of time, which is necessary for mathematical proof, the most we can do is assume that he didn’t have to do what he did. Is it any wonder free will is still a theory? The great humor in this particular instance lies in the fact that though it was always possible to prove determinism true, theology considered it as absolutely false while dogmatically promulgating, in obedience to God’s will, that free will was an absolute reality.”

To show you how confused the mind can get when mathematical relations are not perceived, Will Durant, a well-known philosopher of the 20th century, wrote on page 103 in The Mansions of Philosophy, “For even while we talked determinism, we knew it was false; we are men, not machines.” After opening the door to the vestibule of determinism and taking a step inside, he turned back because he could not get past the implications. Now let us understand why the implications of believing that man’s will is not free turned Durant and many others away. Remember, most people are unaware of the implications of this position; they simply accept as true what has been taught to them by leading authorities. If determinism were true, he reasoned, then man doesn’t have a free choice; consequently, he cannot be blamed for what he does. Faced with this apparent impasse, he asked himself, “How can we not blame and punish people for hurting others? If someone hurts us, we must believe that they didn’t have to, that their will was free, in order to blame and punish them for what they did. And how is it possible to turn the other cheek and not fight back from this intentional hurt to us?”

He was trying to say in this sentence that philosophies of free will would never stop returning just as long as our nature commands us to fight back when hurt, an eye for an eye. This is undeniable, and he was one hundred percent correct because this relation could be seen just as easily with direct perception as two plus two equals four, and there was no way that this statement could be beaten down with formulas or reasoning, but this is not what he actually said. He, as well as many philosophers, helped the cause of free will by unconsciously using syllogistic reasoning, which is logical, though completely fallacious. He accomplished this by setting up an understandable assumption for a major premise: “If there is an almost eternal recurrence of philosophies of freedom, it is because direct perception can never be beaten down with formulas, or sensation with reasoning.” Can you not see how mathematically impossible his observation is? This simple paraphrase will clarify a point: “If there is an almost eternal recurrence of” four equals two plus two, ‘it is because’ two equals one plus one, and one plus one plus one plus one totals four. But when a person perceives certain undeniable relations, is it necessary to make an equation out of four equals two plus two, or out of the fact that once free will is proven untrue, it can no longer exist and its philosophies of freedom return? Using this same syllogistic reasoning, he tried to prove freedom of the will by demonstrating, in the same manner, that determinism could never prove it false. In other words, when a major premise is not obviously true, then fallacious reasoning has to result. The purpose of reasoning is to connect mathematical relations, not to prove the validity of inaccurate perceptions.

Durant begins with the assumption that direct perception (which are words that symbolize what he cannot possibly understand) is superior to reasoning in understanding the truth, which makes a syllogistic equation necessary to prove the validity of an inaccurate perception. Thus, he reasons in his minor premise: “Free will is not a matter of reasoning, like determinism, but is the result of direct perception, therefore…” and here is his fallacious conclusion, “since philosophies of free will employ direct perception, which cannot be beaten down by the reasoning of determinism, the belief in free will must eternally recur.” He knew that free will was a theory, but as long as proof was not necessary when it could be seen with the direct perception of our common sense that it was impossible to turn the other cheek (the corollary thrown up by determinism), he was compelled to write, “Let the determinist honestly envisage the implications of his philosophy.” This indicates that all his reasoning in favor of free will was the result of inferences derived from his inability to accept the implications. Durant is anything but a scientist and an accurate thinker. Since it is absolutely impossible for free will to ever be proven true (I take for granted this is now understood), nothing in this universe can prove determinism an unreality (and in this context it shall only mean the opposite of free will, as death is the opposite of life) simply because this would automatically prove the truth of free will, which is an impossibility. Consequently, the belief in free will and all conceptions regarding it can only remain in existence as a plausible theory just as long as no undeniable evidence is produced in contravention. According to his reasoning, he assumes that free will is true because, in his mind, determinism is false, and the reason he thinks determinism is false is because man is not a machine. Then, not realizing how mathematically impossible his next statement is, he claims that philosophies of freedom (free will) eternally recur because reasoning and formulas cannot beat down the obvious truth of direct perception.

Take a look at that last statement very carefully and see if you can’t tell why it is mathematically impossible. If free will were finally proven to be that which is nonexistent (and let’s take for granted that you know this for a fact) and accepted as such by our scientific world at large, would it be possible, according to Durant’s statement, for “philosophies of freedom” to recur anymore? Isn’t it obvious that the recurrence of the belief in free will is a mathematical impossibility once freedom of the will is proven to be a figment of the imagination, or, to phrase it differently, a realistic mirage? Is it humanly possible for the belief that the world is flat to eternally recur when we have mathematical knowledge that it is round? Consequently, the continued return of the belief in free will can only be due to the fact that it is still a logical theory or plausible conception that has never been analyzed properly, allowing the belief and its philosophies to persist. But Durant states that philosophies of freedom eternally recur, not because of the explanation I just gave, an explanation that cannot be denied by anyone anywhere, even by this philosopher himself, provided it is understood, but because direct perception can never be beaten down with formulas, or sensation with reasoning. Isn’t it apparent that such words have no relation to reality whatsoever? If Durant believed direct perception was considered superior to reasoning, is it any wonder he was so confused and his reasoning so fallacious since the word “because” which denotes the perception of a relation, whether true or false, indicates that he is criticizing reasoning while reasoning. This doesn’t stop a person from saying, “I believe.” “It is my opinion.” “I was taught that man’s will is free,” but it would certainly stop him from trying to defend his position with an argument.

One of the most profound insights ever expressed by Socrates was “Know Thyself,” but though he had a suspicion of its significance, it was only an intuitive feeling, not something he could put his finger on. These two words have never been adequately understood by mankind, including psychiatry and psychology, because this observation is the key that unlocks the first door to another door that requires its own key, and where this discovery’s hiding place was finally uncovered. However, the problem here is so deep and so involved that even those like your philosopher Spinoza, who understood that man’s will is not free, didn’t even come close to the solution, and others like your John Wesley and William James would be willing to bet their lives that will is free. Why do theologians treat this “freedom of the will” as if it were an undeniable reality? And what made it so obvious to Durant that man’s will is free? Durant is now deceased, but over 20 years ago I phoned to tell him I had made a fantastic discovery that was hidden behind the fallacious theory that man’s will is free. He replied, “You must be on the wrong tack, but take what you think you have to Johns Hopkins University for an analysis.” I not only contacted that university but many others to no avail.
 
Peacegirl

I think people generally are a kind of compatabilist.

They believe in free will and observe causality, a local determinism. But they have no label for it.

The philosophy of free will, determinism, and compatabilism are unknown.


To all but a few your book is impenetrable.

In contrast General Semantics and Scientology are easy to understand. Scientology is a global phenomena. Believers swear by it even though it is pseudoscience. The FDA prohibited mareitng the E Meter as having any kind any ind of medical value.

I am familiar with pseudoscience. It is nT V all the time, claims made for supplements and gadgets that are not provable and in some cases appear to violate physics. From physics some are outright fraud.

Your last post is more evangelize. You are quoting scripture that to most is utterly incomprehensible.

From my direct experience and knowledge your book is pseudophilosophy and pseudoscience. Cobbled together from other sources adding eccentric ideas.

It si not a matter of how I read the book.
 
One role of noise/chaos/randomness that I think I missed on discussing earlier is what I will call, for now, "The Problem of Initialization".

In any "error space" there are few "natural" starting points. There is the "unconnected graph of size N", there is the "fully connected graph of size N", there is "the half-connected graph of size N".

There are also engineered graphs of size <N, but these are not "natural" because finding them is non-trivial; they are the result of such a process as I will describe.

Of the three, none of them is likely to be "close" to a gradient descent solution, with the fully connected and unconnected graphs beiing a starting point, at best, for a blind exhaustive search.

There are almost certainly a Large Number of adequate solutions to the problem space, composing symmetry groups, which can be located from the graph, and those structures may be surrounded by "mountains" of higher error, and there are undecidability issues with how to navigate an error surface when all structures of it are connected regularly: nothing differentiates.

As a result, we know that we will have to devise SOME way to select a graph that is not near a "natural" starting point. We need to make a CHOICE.

Now, math has this concept of finite choice, or "access": that as long as we have a finite number of things that we can select, we can select all or any of them in finite time in chaotic ways as values to examine (this isn't exactly or entirely it, but is close enough for our purposes).

The axiom of finite choice says that if you can break down the problem into a set of arbitrary selections, you can use those selections to select a configuration, so long as you can provide an answer for each selection question, which using chaotic motion, we may.

As a result, we could, for instance generate a circuit according to the "noise" of a sine wave. Or, I could generate a circuit according to the rotational positions of a tile at a give offset in a given placement regime of Spectre. As long as that mapping is accessible among the "brute", pretty much.

These are called "initial guesses", and can be assembled from simple sine wave math or complex sine wave math or disgustingly complicated modular forms, or any other of a vast array of "sufficient" methods for selecting different values over compile time.

This, at the very least, has a chance of producing answers that might land in a more fortuitous part of the error surface, where there is a valley leading down to a "low error" region that may be followed by the "blind ant" that is trying to find its way, rather than finding itself in a crater on a mountaintop.

Of course, this imagery will not help someone who has never manually navigated an error surface sort, or who has never taken a class that presents the 2+1d version so that it is readily apparent, but that's not my problem.

For each "dimension" of the configuration space, you need some way to make a selection, to "locate" a position on which to start.

While the solutions to the problem may not at all be "under" the space covered by the selectable portions of a graph under a selection model, some may, for instance, be close enough for a reasonable strategy of gradient descent to locate them.

I suppose an easy-ish way is to think of a game map, Call of Duty or Warcraft style.

If you pretend for a moment that there is a fog of war, and an objective somewhere on this map, and walls that you cannot travel through strewn about blocking navigation between certain points, that you must enter this "map" somewhere so as to search, and that each "entry" costs you something, perhaps you will get the idea?

The issue here is that we can think of a number of problems where "simple" starting point selections could put you somewhere you cannot navigate to the objective from whatsoever. It's easy to find the corners. It's easy to find the center. It's NOT so easy to just pull (15,25) of the square (0,0)...(100,100) out as a starting point, despite the fact that it may be one of only a few starting points that would actually work.

Noise works; ANY modulating input signal would work -- even problem-space data, because the problem of how to configure the network has nothing to do with the shape of the data that network has to handle!

As a result, we tend to use noise and chaotic functions for making "random" selections of a starting point for all sorts of math.

This happens to work under all manner of deterministic systems, because parts of most deterministic systems end up being relatively discorrolate from one another, according to the fundamental theory of arithmetic. One example is that the products of a pair of primes will never intersect or even resemble the products of another set of prime numbers: The products of 2 and 3 and their whole number exponents will never intersect the products of 5 and 7 and their whole exponents.

Math, as a result, has all manner of relatively unrelated phenomena going on, especially in aperiodic domains, allowing the selection of a state using chaos rather than careful assembly.

This is an adversarial activity, however the adversary is one's own ignorance and inability to effectively map the error space without careful forward engineering using a set of axioms that would be a "mapping" of the "abstract error space" itself.

The issue here is that short of quantum computing, there's no way to effectively map an error space in any sort of "efficient" way, and this only works for some error spaces and not others.

So, we have to "make a wild guess".

This is less about where the alternative comes from (an alternative factory) and more about where the assembly/selection criterion come from, however.

This is from literally the last, hardest class in my major, the Machine Learning Capstone.

As a result, I think it has a lot to do with the discussion of learning, choice, control, agency, and so on, but more as a solution of forcing a selection when no selection "stands out" as more right, as a perhaps bad solution to something undecidable from the present data.
 
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Peacegirl

I think people generally are a kind of compatabilist.

They believe in free will and observe causality, a local determinism. But they have no label for it.

The philosophy of free will, determinism, and compatabilism are unknown.
You keep saying that these three ideologies are unknown, but they are known. It seems like you just want to keep the debate going because that's how it has always been. You're probably thinking: Who is this author to break the stalemate? What can I say? He did. He showed that free will will always remain a theory because we can't go back in time to prove that A could have been chosen instead of B. Moreover, compatibilism is the idea that free will and determinism can coexist, which is an internal contradiction. How can anyone square "could have done otherwise" with "could not have done otherwise" without it being totally contradictory? If they want to use the term "free will" to mean doing what one desires, this is fine to use this way because it just means that a person was free to make a choice without undue influence or constraint. The author says throughout the book, "he was compelled of his own free will," to emphasize, for example, that this person shot someone because he wanted to do it, not because an outside force made him do it. I want to make it very clear that this freedom that compatibilists resort to does not grant true freedom of the will (i.e., the ability to do otherwise, which determinism proves cannot be done), and the reason why these two schools of thought will never be compatible.
To all but a few your book is impenetrable.
Where is it impenetrable? You haven't read anything other than the few excerpts I posted.
In contrast General Semantics and Scientology are easy to understand. Scientology is a global phenomena. Believers swear by it even though it is pseudoscience. The FDA prohibited mareitng the E Meter as having any kind any ind of medical value.
Scientology is a cult and a pseudoscience. You can't compare this knowledge to Scientology. All you're doing is trying to throw this book into a wastebasket of failed ideas, so you can wash your hands of it. But this work has not failed, and you have certainly not proved in any way, shape, or form that it has.
I am familiar with pseudoscience. It is nT V all the time, claims made for supplements and gadgets that are not provable and in some cases appear to violate physics. From physics some are outright fraud.
I am a skeptic at heart, so I agree that people have to be suspicious of claims. I was always taught to take everything with a grain of salt. This has stood me in good stead my whole life.
Your last post is more evangelize. You are quoting scripture that to most is utterly incomprehensible.
It appears you have a block because there was nothing that was written from the last excerpt that even hinted of evangelicalism. Did you even understand it, or did you just dismiss it without giving it a second thought? He was showing that Durant used syllogistic reasoning to make it appear that direct perception proves the existence of free will.
From my direct experience and knowledge your book is pseudophilosophy and pseudoscience. Cobbled together from other sources adding eccentric ideas.
Where is anything I have posted eccentric? What direct experience are you using to call this book pseudophilosophy and pseudoscience? Could it be that you are inept at following his reasoning thus far? You don't get to make assertions without any evidence to back up what you're saying.
It si not a matter of how I read the book.
It isn't a matter of how you read the book. It's a matter of if you read the book at all, which you know you have not. You are just parroting, without proof, that free will and determinism can coexist. No, they can't, not if you use the definitions spelled out in this longstanding debate. Compatibilists are fudging the definition to allow for moral responsibility, which is understandable, but that doesn't make it right. You don't like that he provided proof of determinism, which I haven't even gotten to yet, so how the hell do you know what he is offering in terms of proof?
 
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eracgirl

The book to mot i incomprehensible.

Here in Seattle people are thinking about the Seahawks winning the division and maybe wining the Superbowl. The Olympic and the coming FIFA World Cup.

Cost of living. Housing.

Philosophy ha always been an occupation of the few. Your book is particularly not accessible for the masses. Preparation is required to begin to try and read it.

In contrast it s relatively easy to understand Marx. The Enlightenment thinkers.

After all the efforts you have made you have gotten nowhere. Do you ever take an honest look at why?
 
eracgirl

The book to mot i incomprehensible.

Here in Seattle people are thinking about the Seahawks winning the division and maybe wining the Superbowl. The Olympic and the coming FIFA World Cup.

Cost of living. Housing.

Philosophy ha always been an occupation of the few. Your book is particularly not accessible for the masses. Preparation is required to begin to try and read it.

In contrast it s relatively easy to understand Marx. The Enlightenment thinkers.

After all the efforts you have made you have gotten nowhere. Do you ever take an honest look at why?
I already told you why. My father was not part of any university and could not get his foot in the door. He did his best he could, but because he was not in the field, he was at a disadvantage. Forward to today, I don't have a marketing budget, so the book has not been widely distributed. I'm also doing the best I can to get it into the right hands, but it might not be enough to get it recognized in my lifetime. Only time will tell.
 
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University or not the book is what it is. Your efforts have failed.

The book is not accessible to begin with. If I handed you a basic electrical text you would go blank without preparation, like calculus.

Likewise hand your book to the average person and he will draw a blank.

All you do is quote the book, you seem unable to explain it and the main thesis. How it eliminates evil.
 
University or not the book a what it is. Your efforts have failed.

The book is not accessible to begin with. If I handed you a basic electrical text you would go blank without preparation, like calculus.

Likewise hand your book ot the average person and he will draw a blank.
You are right. This book can be understood by people who are interested in this subject matter or have dabbled in it. The average person doesn't need to understand it, especially his explanation as to why man's will is not free and what this means. Many people haven't delved into this subject at all.
 
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