Londonistan, Eurabia

[Keith&Co.]

Would you want your people named after somebody else's blunder?

Right now, my people are named after a map maker who never set foot on the continents...
And 4/5 of my immediate family are named after a completely different continent they've never been to/Italian mapmaker.
And I retired after 20 years a sailor, and the only sails i ever had contact with were made of 1/2 an inch of HY80 steel...
And as a fire control technician during that time, i was trained in 'ready aim fire' and people who heard my rating thought i ran around with hoses and extinguishers.

Call me whatever pops your bubble.

I suppose i might be emotionally roused if someone had a keith as the team mascot, but really i'd only care long enough to find out what _A_ keith would look like....

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do you object to being named after somebody else's blunder, "Canadian"?

Canada was named by blunder of the people who founded it, not by blunder of its conquerors.

I always thought it would be cool if some south american states united and called themselves the United States of America.

 

[RavenSky]

I'm assuming you (& Derec) will be consistent and can show me evidence that you have also protested kosher deli's and kosher sections within grocery stores, right?

I am not aware of any Subways or other similar chains that were forced to go "all kosher".

And I'm not aware of any Subway that was "forced" to go "all halal" either.

 

[angelo]

Subway's menu varies between countries, most significantly where there are religious requirements relating to the meats served.

In 2006, the first kosher Subway restaurant in the United States opened, in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. Subway spokesman Jared Fogle attended the opening. A press release stated, "With slight modifications, such as no pork-based products, and the use of soy-based cheese product, the menu is virtually identical to that of any other Subway restaurant."[20] At their peak, 12 kosher Subway locations were open in the U.S, including Kansas City and 5 in New York. As of 2011, only five remain: Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles and two stores in Maryland.[21] Franchisees who failed noted a lack of support from the parent location in advertising, higher costs of kosher food and supervision, the inability to remain open on Saturdays, and that customers who do not keep kosher prefer the original menu and prices.[21]

Subway opened its first restaurant in India in 2001 in New Delhi. Subway restaurants in India do not serve beef and pork products in deference to Hindu and Muslim beliefs respectively, and sell an extended vegetarian range due to the large number of vegetarians in the country. There are 395 Subway restaurants in 68 cities of India as of January 2013.[22] On September 4, 2012, Subway opened its first all-vegetarian outlet on the campus of Lovely Professional University (LPU) in Jalandhar, Punjab.[23] On March 6, 2013, Subway opened its second all-vegetarian outlet also offering Jain food in Paldi, Ahmedabad.[24]
Nutritional content

Oh my God, the Jews are taking over!

Good find. This should pretty much end the thread.

But just like all the fearmongering bullshit about sharia courts that the Islamophobes love to raise the alarm over, I doubt Derec will own up to the fact that Jews do the same fucking thing and people like him never utter a word of protest about it.

So sharia courts and laws are bullshit are they? Islamophobes are just alarmist as it's perfectly okay to mutilate female genitalia, stone to death an adulterer, flog a rape victim, marry off your 8 year old daughter to an 50 year old uncle, and the rest of the barbaric practices in sharia law.

 

[angelo]

I'm assuming you (& Derec) will be consistent and can show me evidence that you have also protested kosher deli's and kosher sections within grocery stores, right?

I am not aware of any Subways or other similar chains that were forced to go "all kosher".

And I'm not aware of any Subway that was "forced" to go "all halal" either.

No they're not, but in the Western world these practices should never be tolerated. If some want to abide by these kosher or halal practices, then go back to where they are practised. It's about time we reject these practices on humanitarian grounds. Halal slaughtering methods are inhumane.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But just like all the fearmongering bullshit about sharia courts that the Islamophobes love to raise the alarm over, I doubt Derec will own up to the fact that Jews do the same fucking thing and people like him never utter a word of protest about it.

So sharia courts and laws are bullshit are they?

That's not what anyone's saying. The subject of his post isn't sharia courts, it's the fear mongering OVER sharia courts.

- - - Updated - - -

No they're not, but in the Western world these practices should never be tolerated. If some want to abide by these kosher or halal practices, then go back to where they are practised. It's about time we reject these practices on humanitarian grounds. Halal slaughtering methods are inhumane.

Exactly what is inhumane about the slaughter methods used to produce meat for the halal-only Subway outlets?

 

[angelo]

The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious), causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal. Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

 

[Jokodo]

The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious), causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal. Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

This is a direct copy-paste without citing your source. In academia, we call that plagiarism and it consider it a cardinal sin.

Also, since you have already been informed that different schools differ about how serious they are about the "while the animal is conscious" part, and article in the OP clearly states that the animals from which the Subway outlets acquire their meat are stunned, you are not contributing to the discussion, nor making an argument at this point of the discussion.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically,

Yes, i was asking for the inhuman specifics.

the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim,

That's not what you consider inhumane, is it?

who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God")

THAT isn't inhumane, is it?

and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest).

Okay....

Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife

Which would be better than a dull one.

by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious),

Um...no, i was asking what's inhumane about the slaughter for Subway's meat.
Not what some people who are Muslim do. I thought it was clear.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal.

Um... Do UK Subways sell cosmetics?
I mean, i've heard of bacon-flavored lotion, so that might make sense. But it's not inhumane?

Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

Which does go towards why it would be expensive to maintain a dual-menu store. But not inhumane.

 

[Deepak]

by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious),

Um...no, i was asking what's inhumane about the slaughter for Subway's meat.
Not what some people who are Muslim do. I thought it was clear.

Which in the end is a canard anyway. I don't see any concern for, or investigation of, the humane treatment of animals in the Subway supply chain apart from these halal restaurants.

If I had to guess, the venn diagram of people who are opposed to halal Subways and either eat meat produced in factory farms or enjoy hunting (and possibly eating) animals has a fair amount of overlap.

Heck, couldn't an argument be made about the humaneness of killing and eating animals full stop?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Subway's menu varies between countries, most significantly where there are religious requirements relating to the meats served.

In 2006, the first kosher Subway restaurant in the United States opened, in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. Subway spokesman Jared Fogle attended the opening. A press release stated, "With slight modifications, such as no pork-based products, and the use of soy-based cheese product, the menu is virtually identical to that of any other Subway restaurant."[20] At their peak, 12 kosher Subway locations were open in the U.S, including Kansas City and 5 in New York. As of 2011, only five remain: Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles and two stores in Maryland.[21] Franchisees who failed noted a lack of support from the parent location in advertising, higher costs of kosher food and supervision, the inability to remain open on Saturdays, and that customers who do not keep kosher prefer the original menu and prices.[21]

Subway opened its first restaurant in India in 2001 in New Delhi. Subway restaurants in India do not serve beef and pork products in deference to Hindu and Muslim beliefs respectively, and sell an extended vegetarian range due to the large number of vegetarians in the country. There are 395 Subway restaurants in 68 cities of India as of January 2013.[22] On September 4, 2012, Subway opened its first all-vegetarian outlet on the campus of Lovely Professional University (LPU) in Jalandhar, Punjab.[23] On March 6, 2013, Subway opened its second all-vegetarian outlet also offering Jain food in Paldi, Ahmedabad.[24]
Nutritional content

Oh my God, the Jews are taking over!

Good find. This should pretty much end the thread.

But just like all the fearmongering bullshit about sharia courts that the Islamophobes love to raise the alarm over, I doubt Derec will own up to the fact that Jews do the same fucking thing and people like him never utter a word of protest about it.

So sharia courts and laws are bullshit are they? Islamophobes are just alarmist as it's perfectly okay to mutilate female genitalia, stone to death an adulterer, flog a rape victim, marry off your 8 year old daughter to an 50 year old uncle, and the rest of the barbaric practices in sharia law.

How can you come up with such inflammatory conclusion on Warpoet's account that he is "perfectly okay" "with FMG, stoning to death of an adulterer, flogging a rape victim, marrying off your 8 year old daughter to a 50 year old uncle and the rest of barbaric practices, in shariah law? Are you not aware that in the context of the UK allowing for shariah laws, the courts are NOT designed to uphold such practices? Further, what Warpoet is denouncing here is the climate of fear and hate mongering which specifically targets the Muslim population in Europe.As to your persistent dismissal of what was documented in this thread regarding the origin of the halal products used by Subway, what Warpoet pointed to is derec's detachment (and yours at this point) from Kosher meat products where Kosher slaughter implies the animal to be kept conscious. What is exposed here is the nauseating obsession on Muslims while a Kosher menu only eatery does not cause similar outrage.

 

[Sabine Grant]

The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious), causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal. Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

It has been documented in this thread that the origin of the halal meat products served by Subway is from halal slaughter houses where the animal is stunned prior to being slaughtered. How much longer will you dismiss it? You and derec have run out of alleged justifications to fuel a storm in a cup of tea.

 

[RavenSky]

So sharia courts and laws are bullshit are they? Islamophobes are just alarmist as it's perfectly okay to mutilate female genitalia, stone to death an adulterer, flog a rape victim, marry off your 8 year old daughter to an 50 year old uncle, and the rest of the barbaric practices in sharia law.

what on earth does this have to do with bacon at Subway

 

[Jayjay]

I don't mind halal or kosher alternatives, as long as one can still get cheaper regular meat. Let the religionists pay premium for their superstition if they want to.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't mind halal or kosher alternatives, as long as one can still get cheaper regular meat. Let the religionists pay premium for their superstition if they want to.

That's impossible at a halal establishment. Halal meat is economically less efficient to produce (it's exactly the same as regular meat, except at the slaughtering stage you have to pay for the additional cost of a religious maniac to shout things to an invisible tyrant and cut throats). So either that particular Subway will be more expensive to cover the cost (if it's an individually owned store), or, if it's a franchise store and Subway tries to harmonise costs between nearby sites, all Subway customers will pay the price (including those eating at non-halal Subways).

Whilst I don't agree with Derec that this is a 'caving' to threats from a vocal minority rather than a mere byproduct of market forces, I also find arguments that the effect has been benign for all actors to be disingenuous. Of course choice and convenience is reduced if the place I used to go to now no longer sells what I previously used to and want to buy from there.

Or, to put it another way: it would be a better world if nobody believed god wanted them to slaughter animals in a certain ridiculous way, and therefore a market is created that does nothing to reduce animal suffering (it's either neutral to suffering or increases it), but drives up costs.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I don't mind halal or kosher alternatives, as long as one can still get cheaper regular meat. Let the religionists pay premium for their superstition if they want to.

That's impossible at a halal establishment. Halal meat is economically less efficient to produce (it's exactly the same as regular meat, except at the slaughtering stage you have to pay for the additional cost of a religious maniac to shout things to an invisible tyrant and cut throats). So either that particular Subway will be more expensive to cover the cost (if it's an individually owned store), or, if it's a franchise store and Subway tries to harmonise costs between nearby sites, all Subway customers will pay the price (including those eating at non-halal Subways).

Halal meat might be more costly in the UK but in in my neck of the woods(Florida) the cost of halal lamb per pound is cheaper than at Publix or other stores selling lamb. Probably because most of the lamb sold in those other stores is not locally raised. I will have to compare the price of chicken next time I go to my local Middle Easten/Northern African market in Tampa. As to mouton, cannot make any comparison as I have yet to have found mouton meat outside of Middle Eastern/Northern African markets. Even rabbit is cheaper.

Whilst I don't agree with Derec that this is a 'caving' to threats from a vocal minority rather than a mere byproduct of market forces, I also find arguments that the effect has been benign for all actors to be disingenuous. Of course choice and convenience is reduced if the place I used to go to now no longer sells what I previously used to and want to buy from there.

Or, to put it another way: it would be a better world if nobody believed god wanted them to slaughter animals in a certain ridiculous way, and therefore a market is created that does nothing to reduce animal suffering (it's either neutral to suffering or increases it), but drives up costs.

In the big picture, it would be a better world if every possible effort were made to end human trafficking....but I prefer to not bore you with the triviality of every actual tragedy occurring throughout the world due to a lack of priorities. Meanwhile, the "actors" who are oh so affected by the reality that out of over 1700 Subways in the UK and Ireland, 200 will not be serving their preferred products, IMO need to stop wasting their angst over it.

I am now departing from this thread which can only belong in some type of parallel universe.

 

[Metaphor]

Halal meat might be more costly in the UK but in in my neck of the woods(Florida) the cost of halal lamb per pound is cheaper than at Publix or other stores selling lamb. Probably because most of the lamb sold in those other stores is not locally raised.

Holding constant the other factors, it's more expensive.

I will have to compare the price of chicken next time I go to my local Middle Easten/Northern African market in Tampa. As to mouton, cannot make any comparison as I have yet to have found mouton meat outside of Middle Eastern/Northern African markets. Even rabbit is cheaper.

The comparison would be meaningless, because a non-halal supermarket price and a halal street market price have totally different structures. But if you took a Western slaughterhouse, and then added the halal requirements, it would make it more expensive.

In the big picture, it would be a better world if every possible effort were made to end human trafficking....but I prefer to not bore you with the triviality of every actual tragedy occurring throughout the world due to a lack of priorities. Meanwhile, the "actors" who are oh so affected by the reality that out of over 1700 Subways in the UK and Ireland, 200 will not be serving their preferred products, IMO need to stop wasting their angst over it.

Huh? Just because you're concerned about a particular issue, does not mean that no-one should ever express concern over another issue. It makes no sense.

I'm concerned over the lack of marriage equality in Australia, but there are GLBT people in Iran getting executed for suspicion of homosexuality. Would you dismiss my 'angst' over marriage inequality in Australia because of Iran?

 

[angelo]

The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious), causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal. Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

This is a direct copy-paste without citing your source. In academia, we call that plagiarism and it consider it a cardinal sin.

Also, since you have already been informed that different schools differ about how serious they are about the "while the animal is conscious" part, and article in the OP clearly states that the animals from which the Subway outlets acquire their meat are stunned, you are not contributing to the discussion, nor making an argument at this point of the discussion.

If you had been reading this thread you would have seen that I posted this a few pages back with the Wikipedia source on it.
This was to reply to the post of supposedly two types of halal slaughtering, concious and stunned. If the animal is stunned it is no longer halal, get that through your head. There is only one method of halal slaughtering and that is that the animal must be concious. Sure some imans knowing westerners are uncomfortable with that fact try to cover it up.

 

[angelo]

Yes, i was asking for the inhuman specifics.

the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim,

That's not what you consider inhumane, is it?

who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God")

THAT isn't inhumane, is it?

and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest).

Okay....

Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife

Which would be better than a dull one.

by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is concious),

Um...no, i was asking what's inhumane about the slaughter for Subway's meat.
Not what some people who are Muslim do. I thought it was clear.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal.

Um... Do UK Subways sell cosmetics?
I mean, i've heard of bacon-flavored lotion, so that might make sense. But it's not inhumane?

Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

Which does go towards why it would be expensive to maintain a dual-menu store. But not inhumane.

You have completely ignored the While the animal is concious. Therefore I'll completely ignore your response.

 

[Jokodo]

I don't mind halal or kosher alternatives, as long as one can still get cheaper regular meat. Let the religionists pay premium for their superstition if they want to.

That's impossible at a halal establishment. Halal meat is economically less efficient to produce (it's exactly the same as regular meat, except at the slaughtering stage you have to pay for the additional cost of a religious maniac to shout things to an invisible tyrant and cut throats). So either that particular Subway will be more expensive to cover the cost (if it's an individually owned store), or, if it's a franchise store and Subway tries to harmonise costs between nearby sites, all Subway customers will pay the price (including those eating at non-halal Subways).

Whilst I don't agree with Derec that this is a 'caving' to threats from a vocal minority rather than a mere byproduct of market forces, I also find arguments that the effect has been benign for all actors to be disingenuous. Of course choice and convenience is reduced if the place I used to go to now no longer sells what I previously used to and want to buy from there.

Yes, sure. But you can't blame other people for not sharing your preferences.