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Yet another war, this time with Iran

"Known rapist"? That was a civil case in a jurisdiction especially hostile to Trump. The accuser, EJC, had little to no evidence and had her own credibility problems. She did not know what year the supposed sexual assault took place. Her story of being attacked in a busy Manhattan department store without anybody noticing anything lacks verisimilitude
Except he's pretty much admitted it was true, although not "rape" by the legal definition where it happened.

Have you not paid attention to what purportedly happened? This was a case of grab her by the pussy--except his finger ended up going inside. Some people freeze in fight or flight situations, I find it entirely plausible that she did. Some states call that rape, some call it sexual assault.
 
You sound like Hamas leadership.
More like Churchill or Roosevelt.
Nah. It is Hama's policy.
My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.
What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.
Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.
Unless you are advocating annihilating Iran as a nation, how is that relevant?
So we let them have the world because dealing with them is unpleasant.

And we don't need to destroy the nation.
 
It's also a well tested fact that violent opposition to a religion causes it to become both stronger and more radicalized.

Religions thrive on persecution. The way to kill them is through apathy and gentle ridicule.
It's not working very well against Islam.
Where is it being attempted against Islam?
The problem is that the Iranian regime has weaponized it.
The problem is that it's surprisingly easy to claim to be persecuted, when your leaders are being martyred by the bombs of the Great Satan.

Indeed, it requires an astonishing level of mental gymnastics to claim that recent Israeli and US actions don't constitute the persecution of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

They were attacked without warning during peace talks, and their leadership killed. Then every time new leaders emerged, they were killed in turn.

Do you somehow imagine that the average Iranian in the street saw that as being fair and just?

Any who might have hoped for it were slaughtered by the IRGC back when Trump told them to rise up and then failed to support their doing so.

Your inability to even start to understand humanity is astonishing. Muslims are no different from Jews or Christians - they are tribalistic and become steadfast in defence of even awful regimes, when their religion is seen as being under attack.

Bombing people makes them hate you, and makes them support the leaders who you are hoping to depose - even if they wanted to depose them themselves.
 
You sound like Hamas leadership.
More like Churchill or Roosevelt.
Nah. It is Hama's policy.
My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.
What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.
Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.
Unless you are advocating annihilating Iran as a nation, how is that relevant?
So we let them have the world because dealing with them is unpleasant.

And we don't need to destroy the nation.
Who said let them have the world or whatever they want?

But nothing tried so far has worked, including the current clusterfuck.
 
Which looks good until you have cases like the Iranian stealth expansion. Subvert other countries by funding terror movements while not officially taking control.
If I were an USian I would not be mentioning subversion and funding terror movements...... Iran-Iraq war, Shah......
 
You sound like Hamas leadership.
More like Churchill or Roosevelt.
Nah. It is Hama's policy.
My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.
What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.
Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.
Unless you are advocating annihilating Iran as a nation, how is that relevant?
So we let them have the world because dealing with them is unpleasant.

And we don't need to destroy the nation.
Yes, all you need is to ......subvert them.
 
Even if Iran had a nuclear weapon, it would not have helped it. Can it bomb Israel or any other country? Can US or Russia bomb any country? We have had two wars with Pakistan. We both have some 160-200 nuclear bombs. Did we use them? Wars have to be fought with conventional weapons.
Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.
Do they have another option? Trump threatening to wipe Iran civilization. They have to react as hard as they can.
Trump wants an honorable exist. Do the Iranians not want an honorable exist?
Quit being hostile and there certainly won't be an invasion.
 
Even if Iran had a nuclear weapon, it would not have helped it. Can it bomb Israel or any other country? Can US or Russia bomb any country? We have had two wars with Pakistan. We both have some 160-200 nuclear bombs. Did we use them? Wars have to be fought with conventional weapons.
Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.
Do they have another option? Trump threatening to wipe Iran civilization. They have to react as hard as they can.
Trump wants an honorable exist. Do the Iranians not want an honorable exist?
Quit being hostile and there certainly won't be an invasion.
Certainly worked for Ukraine.
 
You sound like Hamas leadership.
More like Churchill or Roosevelt.
Nah. It is Hama's policy.
My point is that we should not capitulate to the islamofascists just because oil prices went up some.
What on earth are you on about now? The US has achieved its objectives - eliminate the regime leaders, and nuclear and missile capabilities.
Iran is still as terrorist as ever.

Look at how many economic targets it is attacking. That's terrorism. Their whole strategy is fuck up the world by blocking the strait until they get their way.
Unless you are advocating annihilating Iran as a nation, how is that relevant?
So we let them have the world because dealing with them is unpleasant.

And we don't need to destroy the nation.
Loren we are the aggressors in this military action because we can’t call it a war because Congress has to authorize wars.

We are not the good guys here. We are not the good guys bombing boats in the Caribbean. We are not the good guys abducting an elected leader and his wife in another country and stealing half a billion dollars and allowing the Moron in Chief to just squirrel away that money in his own private offshore account. We are not the good guys with our own duly elected Moron in Chief threatening to just take Greenland which he often confuses with Iceland.

We are not the good guys in this conflict. With Iran, FFS. We are the bad guys against Iran. Let that sink in.
 
So you don't care about genocide?
What Israel has done in Gaza is genocide.
Look at what happened between India and Pakistan. Exactly the same thing as 1948 except far, far bloodier.
India/Pakistan conflict is not between people. We have forgotten 1947. We love each other. We (in North India) are the same people as Pakistanis.
The conflict is a creation of Pakistan Army and their Clerics.
Quit being hostile and there certainly won't be an invasion.
If there is one, Iran is ready for it. Only that the whole world will pay for it.
We are not the good guys in this conflict. With Iran, FFS. We are the bad guys against Iran. Let that sink in.
The bad guys were the Zionist who thought of creating Israel.
 
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Oh yes. We just ignore all the others
As I said, conflict is necessary for supremacy of Pakistan Army and the clerics. Three generations of Pakistanis have been taught in school to hate India. But still the love between two people has not been lost.
There are thousands of videos on Youtube. I selected the first with English captions.
 
Israel was invaded by 5 countries on its 1st day of independence and you claim those countries are hurt that Israel defeated them? Diddums.
You keep trying to sever the connection between Zionists declaring a new nation in Palestine and everything that happened in the days, weeks, months and years leading up to it, and how it impacted those neighboring countries.

Why do you do that?

It can't be because you don't know about the terrorism, murders, kidnappings, coordinated attacks on villages full of unarmed civilians, etc. It's not because you are simply unaware of the careful planning and decades of efforts to acquire weapons and other resources necessary to carry out those plans. And it's not because you don't know the ambition of the Zionists who founded Israel was to seize even more territory and resources than they had on that day in May of 1948.
The Arab/Israeli conflict could not have started before 14th May 1948 as Israel did not exist beforehand (well not since c. 63BC).

True, there were no Israelis before Zionists claimed they had founded the State of Israel. That's something I have often pointed out.

But that does not explain why you keep trying to sever the connection between Zionists declaring Israel existed and all the bloodshed and upheaval that went into Israel's founding, and how that bloodshed and upheaval affected neighboring countries.

It's like you're trying to claim Israel had some kind of virgin birth with no blood, no trauma, and nobody getting fucked.
Plans were proposed that might have allowed a measure of co-existence but nothing was done to take them seriously. More's the pity.

I take it you're a fan of the Arab Proposal?
Be careful of claiming positions of me that might not be true.

The Arab League had a plan
The Jewish Committee had a plan
The UN had a plan
The US had the Henderson plan
Count Bernadotte (Sweden) had a plan but his tragic assassination caused it to die too.
Many plans and nobody was prepared to compromise.

I am being careful. But perhaps I am being too optimistic.

I provided two links to the Arab Proposal, one of them a PDF of the document stored in the Library of Congress and the other a summation of the main points, in a post in this thread that was a direct response to you (#11124). I was under the impression you had at least skimmed them. When you said "Plans were proposed that might have allowed a measure of co-existence but nothing was done to take them seriously" I thought you were referring to it. When I said "I take it you're a fan of the Arab Proposal?", I was seeking confirmation.

Did you think the Arab Proposal had merit? Would you have supported it if you'd been there at that conference negotiating Palestine's future?
I read both those links. Written as they are they sound and read quite reasonable. But the devil is always in the detail.
As an example sect. 4 pt. 7 says
(vii) Unless and until legislation provides otherwise, Jewish immigration into Palestine should be entirely prohibited, and the existing land transfer restrictions should remain unchanged. The constitution should provide that any change in the above two matters can only be effected by law requiring the consent of the Arabs in Palestine as expressed by a majority of the Arab members of the Legislative Assembly.
Yet non-Jewish immigration appears not to be restricted in any way. And the requirement that only a majority of Arab members of the Legislative assembly can change it is equivalent to saying Jews (pre 1939) are not welcome ever.

The Arab league proposed as the leader of their state, Amin al-Husseini, a well known antisemite and admirer of Hitler. The Jews opposed his nomination (quite rightly in my opinion). He was also not adverse to cutting down his non-Jewish opponents. Such a head of state is ridiculous.
You need to spell that out more clearly if you want to be understood in these threads. And even then you'll probably have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

The Jews were evicted from Europe, not their choice. Just like they were evicted by the Romans. Notice a pattern?

I notice an exaggeration.

Jews were evicted from some places in Europe and not evicted from others. Thousands of Jews were enslaved by Romans, just like thousands of Greeks, Ethiopians, Gauls, Celts, Germanic peoples, etc., from areas the Romans conquered.

The Jews are not welcome anywhere and are never left in peace no matter where they reside. Fix that and perhaps a lot of problems will go away.

You are ignoring 400 years of peaceful relations between Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Palestine from the early 1500s to the early 1900s.
You claim that the relationships were peaceful. The Jews, Christians were 2nd class (at best) citizens of the Ottomans. Subject to arbitrary rules enforced by an iron hand. Certainly peaceful, if the alternative could be mass slaughter.

I don't just claim it, I have supported that assertion with scholarly articles, essays written by historians, and links to sites like the Jewish Virtual Library and My Jewish Learning.

I have pointed out the two times that Jews in Palestine were victimized over the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule, both of them when the Ottomans briefly lost control. I have provided evidence that Jews were sheltered by their Muslims neighbors during those riots. So before you try to bring up something we have already discussed, perhaps you should review my posts, especially the ones I wrote in response to one of your posts, and try to remember what I said.

I have never said, suggested, hinted, or implied that the Ottoman Empire was perfect. I have plainly stated what I believe are its flaws and areas where it could have been greatly improved. What I have said was that Palestinian Jews had peaceful relations with their Christian and Muslim neighbors in Palestine for 400 years. You seem to want to ignore history and keep claiming that Jews never had anyplace where they could live in peace with their neighbors. I understand that claim is an important pillar in the argument in favor of seizing land by force in order to create an exclusive State for Jews, but it's not factual.

Palestinian Jews were living in peace in Palestine before Zionist European immigrants started arriving in force with the intention of carving out a territory for themselves and kicking out the majority of the indigenous population. If you think you can prove they weren't, go ahead and make your case.

You appeared to know about the Ottoman Turks rescuing Sephardic Jews from Spain, and that Jews were welcome in the Ottoman Empire.
Jews were welcomed at times esp. if they had treasure or knowledge. But it depended so much on the Sultan of the day. New Sultan, new rules, usual worse.
You said you knew about Tantura. You said you knew about the peaceful relations between Native Palestinians and Jewish immigrants during the 1st and 2nd Aliyah.

And yet, you seem to forget all that whenever you want to make an appeal to emotion to justify the violent takeover of Palestine and the purging of non-Jews by Zionist extremists.
I do not forget. I acknowledge the difficulty of maintaining peaceful relations and the unwillingness of any it seems to compromise.

Unwillingness of any?

You are completely discounting the willingness to compromise shown by the villagers of Tantura, Deir Yassin, and others who had pacts and agreements with the local Jewish communities. You are ignoring the Arab Proposal, which was all about willingness to compromise.
If you could point out all the places within the Arab league plan that would be helpful.
Tantura, Deir Yassin etc. were events that should never had happened. They are a stain on the Jews of the ME.
You are ignoring the people Count Bernadotte was working with and why Zionist terrorists thought it best to murder him before all that compromising resulted in them getting less than everything they wanted. ***
Count Bernadotte's plan looked a one that might of had a good chance of success. His assassination by the Stern or Irgun was a disaster and scuttled any good attempts at compromise.
 
Israel was invaded by 5 countries on its 1st day of independence and you claim those countries are hurt that Israel defeated them? Diddums.
You keep trying to sever the connection between Zionists declaring a new nation in Palestine and everything that happened in the days, weeks, months and years leading up to it, and how it impacted those neighboring countries.

Why do you do that?

It can't be because you don't know about the terrorism, murders, kidnappings, coordinated attacks on villages full of unarmed civilians, etc. It's not because you are simply unaware of the careful planning and decades of efforts to acquire weapons and other resources necessary to carry out those plans. And it's not because you don't know the ambition of the Zionists who founded Israel was to seize even more territory and resources than they had on that day in May of 1948.

So, why? Why does the history of the conflict start for you on May 14th and not before? Why were the on-going ethnic cleansing and massacres which resulted in close to a million refugees seeking shelter in neighboring countries not a good enough reason, in your opinion, for those countries to get involved?
We know a lot of the Palestinian version of "history" has little to do with what actually happened.

What Palestinian version?

Links, please.
 
Israel was invaded by 5 countries on its 1st day of independence and you claim those countries are hurt that Israel defeated them? Diddums.
Not only was this last century but this was wayyy back last century. Piss weak argument.

I bunch of bullys pick on a kid. The teachers break it up and put the bullies in detention. From detention the bullies continously scream out the window that the moment they come out they will murder the kid who was bullied.

The Arabs have been in detention since 1948. The biggest factor keeping Israel alive is US support

No, it wasn't last century. It never stopped. The Hamas attack of 2023 was just the last one in a string of attacks. It never stopped.

Stop downplaying Arab aggression against Israel. The tenacity of their hatred for Israel is remarkable. As is what they are willing to sacrifice just to keep the conflict going
By now most Arab nations make noises but don't really want to attack Israel.

The modern attacks basically all trace back to Iran.

Why are the noises tolerated? Don't you think it indicates how people feel?

Trump made similar noises about invading Greenland and Europe reacted strongly. Trump was condemned. Humurous hats condemning USA were bought.

Why do we get angry about Trump making noises while just letting anti-Israeli noises just slide.

I understand that Islam is an imperialistic ideology and are duty bound to, at least, give it lip service. It still doesn't make it ok. If Islamic countries want to be welcome into the civilised world, we should demand, they drop the Islamic imperialism from Islam. Until then, perhaps not treat them as civilised?
 
True, there were no Israelis before Zionists claimed they had founded the State of Israel. That's something I have often pointed out.

But that does not explain why you keep trying to sever the connection between Zionists declaring Israel existed and all the bloodshed and upheaval that went into Israel's founding, and how that bloodshed and upheaval affected neighboring countries.

It's like you're trying to claim Israel had some kind of virgin birth with no blood, no trauma, and nobody getting fucked.
What came before did not affect other countries and was small potatoes compared to the 1948 war. And it was roughly equal between the two sides.

Links, please.

You seem to be saying Plan Dalet was roughly equal to something someone else was doing at the same time. What Plan was that, and who was carrying it out?

You are ignoring 400 years of peaceful relations between Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Palestine from the early 1500s to the early 1900s.

You appeared to know about the Ottoman Turks rescuing Sephardic Jews from Spain, and that Jews were welcome in the Ottoman Empire.

You said you knew about Tantura. You said you knew about the peaceful relations between Native Palestinians and Jewish immigrants during the 1st and 2nd Aliyah.

And yet, you seem to forget all that whenever you want to make an appeal to emotion to justify the violent takeover of Palestine and the purging of non-Jews by Zionist extremists.
The same peaceful coexistence of Jim Crow.

The closest comparison to what happened in 1948 is a battered wife finally leaving her abuser.

You can't be talking about the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire fell 20+ years before 1948 and the British took over governing the area.

If you're talking about Jews finally leaving their abusers in Europe, the analogy works but what does that have to do with the Palestinians? I know you've seen the Ben Gurion quote where he says the Palestinians had nothing to do with the abuse Jews suffered in Europe.

If you're talking about the Chrisitan and Muslim Palestinians, you're going to have to provide a source for that claim. And explain how it is you know more about the situation than David Ben Gurion did.
I agree with compensation, resettlement, and a Right-of-Return for refugees.
If there is to be a right of return it should be mutual. But this is a complete non-starter. It's just another way to victimize the Jews.

There is an internationally recognized Right of Return and it is universal. All refugees have the Right to Return to their former homes, former communities, and places of origin. It's not an exclusive Right for any particular group, it's one that everyone has.

Jews are not victimized when human rights are respected.

Racists and bigots almost certainly will be angered if they have to share the countryside with people who aren't members of their own religion or ethnicity. But Jews aren't all racists, bigots, or the kind of Zionist who's fine with violations of human rights. There is no reason to suppose Jews in general oppose human rights, especially when so many have become famous advocating for them.

But why would European Jews have more of a Right than Palestinians to live in Palestine? Members of the European branch of the Jewish diaspora show a significant degree of European ancestry, and it's impossible to determine which persons are descended from those who were forced out. Whereas the refugees who fled when Plan Dalet was implemented, and their descendants, have solid evidence to back up their claims to a Right to Return to villages that were conquered by Zionist forces in the 1940s.

IMO, the people with the best evidence to support their claim to Palestine as their ancestral homeland are the ones known to be from there, i.e. recent refugees, not the ones who might have some ancestors who were enslaved by Romans but might also be the descendants of shepherds who moved to Ukraine because they wanted to be farmers and seafarers who got stuck living in Greece when their boat sank.

Also, I have addressed the point of Jews being forced out of countries like Morocco many, many times.

Perhaps you were not party to those discussions. Usually it's Loren trying to slip in bullshit about Algerian Jews that prompts a dive into that history. If you want to discuss it, I'd be happy to do that. But if you're going to try claiming that what happened to Jews in the 1970s justifies what happened to Palestinians in the 1940s, or that Palestinians have to pay the price for what Italians did, or that 2 wrongs make a right when it's the Right of Return for Jews alone, then you'd better bring your A game. I have links and I'm not afraid to use them.
What you are missing is that it's not isolated things that happened to Jews. We just have a few surviving examples of what was normal.

You're looking at the paucity of news reports of twister hits tornado alley and concluding tornadoes are very rare.
Source your claims, Loren.
 
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