Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Colonel Sanders]

It is indeed reasonable to hold governments responsible, so why is Hamas held to no standard while Israel is held to impossible standards? I cannot help but see hypocrisy and antisemitism as core elements of this support.

I keep seeing the meme of “Hamas is not held accountable” but it is a fiction. It is designated as a terrorist organization by the US, the EU, Canada, and many other nations. There are sanctions, and continual assassinations. The US subsidizes Israel’s military.

What more is the world supposed to do? Stay mute regardless whatever the gov’t of Israel chooses to do?

You're moving the goalposts. My statements have to do with the opinions of American liberals and/or leftists. Hamas has indeed been found to be be a terrorist organization yet it finds strong support among those that should abhor it.

I think part of the communication breakdown is that many of the people protesting Israel in the United States, particularly those waving the Palestinian flag rather than a Hamas flag, believe they are protesting what they see as a humanitarian catastrophe or genocide. They are not necessarily advocating for the destruction of Israel, the death of Jews, or the objectives espoused by Hamas or Hezbollah.

If I understand your position correctly, you're arguing that the practical end result of these protests could be to weaken Israel's ability to fight Hamas, ultimately benefiting an organization that openly seeks Israel's destruction. That's a legitimate concern to raise, even if not everyone agrees with the conclusion.

My question is what comes next. Let's assume Israel succeeds in eliminating Hamas as a governing and military force in Gaza. How does Israel prevent another Hamas from emerging in five, ten, or twenty years? Military victories can remove organizations, but they don't necessarily eliminate the conditions that allow new ones to form.

Whatever the answer is, it probably can't be a return to previous approaches. If the goal is long-term security, there has to be a strategy beyond defeating Hamas today and hoping something similar doesn't rise in its place tomorrow.

Israel has tried since it first became a state to make peace with Islamic states who tried to destroy them. Eventually, after utterly failing to eliminate Israel through war, Egypt and Jordan came to their senses and the negotiating table in good faith.

With respect to future deterrence, It's impossible to say what will prevent future violence. Hamas, unlike Egypt and Jordan cannot and should not be counted on to act in good faith.

I think one solution would be to create DMZ several kilometers wide. It's worked in Korea for 70 years.

At some point it needs to be accepted that radical Islamists will never be willing to make peace with Israel.

 

[ZiprHead]

I feel like you're looking at this through a pretty extreme lens. A lot of people fiercely oppose Hamas, felt sickened by October 7, and stand with Iranian protestors, yet they still believe Palestinians have a right to their own future and that Israel's government isn't above criticism. You seem to be reducing this to a binary choice between supporting human rights and condemning terrorism, when it's entirely possible to do both.

No. You are looking at a fantasy of peaceful coexistence, but the Palestinian Hamas cause is and always has been one of genocide.

FTFY

 

[laughing dog]

It is indeed reasonable to hold governments responsible, so why is Hamas held to no standard while Israel is held to impossible standards? I cannot help but see hypocrisy and antisemitism as core elements of this support.

I keep seeing the meme of “Hamas is not held accountable” but it is a fiction. It is designated as a terrorist organization by the US, the EU, Canada, and many other nations. There are sanctions, and continual assassinations. The US subsidizes Israel’s military.

What more is the world supposed to do? Stay mute regardless whatever the gov’t of Israel chooses to do?

You're moving the goalposts. My statements have to do with the opinions of American liberals and/or leftists. Hamas has indeed been found to be be a terrorist organization yet it finds strong support among those that should abhor it.

I pointed out your statements were fictions. And, your silence on my questions suggests hypocrisy on your part.

 

[laughing dog]

It is indeed reasonable to hold governments responsible, so why is Hamas held to no standard while Israel is held to impossible standards? I cannot help but see hypocrisy and antisemitism as core elements of this support.

I keep seeing the meme of “Hamas is not held accountable” but it is a fiction. It is designated as a terrorist organization by the US, the EU, Canada, and many other nations. There are sanctions, and continual assassinations. The US subsidizes Israel’s military.

What more is the world supposed to do? Stay mute regardless whatever the gov’t of Israel chooses to do?

But none of that meaningfully curtails Hamas. The only meaningful pressure is applied to Israel.

How would the world meaningfully pressure a terrorist group? Please reveal the secret so that the world can immediately and effectively deal with every terrorist group.

BTW, how has world pressure meaningfully curtailed Israel in Gaza?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel does need to be more careful and clinical. The amount of ordnance they have flung into Gaza is just ridiculous (and deadly).

What we are seeing is simply how modern war is.

An army fights in built-up terrain, every building becomes cover. And they get destroyed. Same thing is happening in Ukraine.

And Hamas does as much as it can to keep civilians trapped in the battlefield, compared to Ukraine where neither side is trying to trap them.

 

[Gospel]

With respect to future deterrence, It's impossible to say what will prevent future violence. Hamas, unlike Egypt and Jordan cannot and should not be counted on to act in good faith.

I think one solution would be to create DMZ several kilometers wide. It's worked in Korea for 70 years.

At some point it needs to be accepted that radical Islamists will never be willing to make peace with Israel.

This is exactly the kind of conversation I'd rather see more of. These are the discussions people who genuinely care about the safety, security, and long-term future of Israelis and Palestinians should be having.

Frankly, people who spend more time hurling accusations than discussing actual solutions don't strike me as particularly concerned with Israel at all. Israel is a nation of real people facing real security issues being used as a rhetorical shield to attack anyone who doesn't fall in line with a particular viewpoint.

For my part, I largely agree with Israel's stated position on what Gaza should look like after Hamas is removed from power. Given the events of October 7th and the decades of rocket attacks, terrorism, and failed peace efforts that preceded it, I think it is entirely reasonable for Israelis to prioritize security above all else.

This makes sense to me:

• Hamas should be dismantled and disarmed.
• Hamas should not be permitted to govern Gaza in any form.
• Israel should maintain security responsibility for the foreseeable future to prevent another October 7th-style attack.
• Gaza should eventually be administered by Palestinian actors who are not affiliated with Hamas or other terrorist organizations.
• Any future governing structure should demonstrate both the ability and willingness to coexist peacefully before being entrusted with greater autonomy.

It's worth noting that "coexist peacefully" was apparently meant as an insult when Loren accused me of using the term.

That said, I would hope the first and last points evolve over time. Ideally, as trust is built, violence decreases, and stable institutions emerge, Israel's direct security involvement could gradually diminish and Palestinians could move toward greater self-governance and, under the right conditions, eventual independence. But expecting Israel to simply hand over control immediately after the deadliest attack in its history seems detached from political and security realities.

These are the conversations worth having. Could a DMZ work? What security guarantees would be required? How should reconstruction be handled? What incentives would encourage peace? What would a realistic pathway toward Palestinian self-government look like? How do you prevent Hamas 2.0 from emerging a decade from now?

Those questions are infinitely more productive than the endless purity tests and ideological witch hunts that dominate these threads from just two members.

I have no interest in supporting Hamas. I also have no interest in pretending Israel's security concerns are imaginary. What I am interested in is discussing practical ways to reduce future violence, improve security, and create conditions where fewer people die on both sides.

That seems infinitely more worthwhile than watching Loren and DrZoidberg spend another hundred posts arguing over who possesses the correct ideological membership card this week.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So, the difference is Israel is on the receiving end of harsh language while Hamas and Hezbollah get less scolding and more disgust?

Or is it that Israel is a member of the international community and gets treated like one while Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations with no international recognition as the legitimate government of a State and get treated as such?

So words are more important than lives. Where do you think this is, Iran? Where a woman who even inadvertently kills her rapist is guilty of murder and IIRC executed.

 

[Gospel]

Loren, your analogies have an impressive ability to make perfect sense right up until they're exposed to another human being.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seriously?

Tigers!, is that true? That Instagram post is what you were calling the equivalent of telling Israel to "lie back and think of England"?

Look at the time.

It is in effect telling Israel to abandon it's hostages. Don't defend yourself when attacked. Sounds an awful lot like lie back and think of England--when you're being raped.

 

[laughing dog]

Seriously?

Tigers!, is that true? That Instagram post is what you were calling the equivalent of telling Israel to "lie back and think of England"?

Look at the time.

It is in effect telling Israel to abandon it's hostages. Don't defend yourself when attacked. Sounds an awful lot like lie back and think of England--when you're being raped.

I didn’t get that sense at all. One what textual basis do you base your interpretation?

 

[Gospel]

Seriously?

Tigers!, is that true? That Instagram post is what you were calling the equivalent of telling Israel to "lie back and think of England"?

Look at the time.

It is in effect telling Israel to abandon it's hostages. Don't defend yourself when attacked. Sounds an awful lot like lie back and think of England--when you're being raped.

I didn’t get that sense at all. One what textual basis do you base your interpretation?

If the goal isn't to produce results but to produce results that other people can reproduce, why the fuck are you even asking?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unlike most circumstances, I don't see this one as having many shades of grey. To me it's not a matter of Israel's government being above criticism. Rather, it's the right of a nation to exercise its right to defend itself against a relentless enemy that exercises the most hateful and violent policies over its own people and then extends that violence and hate towards a liberal democracy.

October 7 was unprovoked and shocking in its scope and execution. The response of the American left was and still is shocking. Everything that the left and atheists in particular are supposed to stand for has been ground down to hypocritical dust.

While I can appreciate truth in that there were some on the left that support Palestine and feel they have a right to self-defense, that was not the broad conclusion of The Left. My niece made some uncomfortable statements online and I did my best to correct her point of view, which is tainted by the fact that she isn't old enough to remember the Arab Wars, the suicide bombings. All she knows is what has happened recently, and that is a Palestine that has effectively gone feral politically in part due to Israeli and Iranian decisions. So I did my best to provide that broader understanding.

But her position clearly wasn't mine and I am quite to the left as it is.

It is indeed reasonable to hold governments responsible, so why is Hamas held to no standard while Israel is held to impossible standards? I cannot help but see hypocrisy and antisemitism as core elements of this support.

Hamas wasn't allowed to be a government, by anyone. I was suppose the only person that thought the UN, Israel, US, etc... messed up royally with Hamas winning the election. That was an opportunity and forcing Hamas to become inclusive with politics. Instead, everyone said 'feck off' and that was that.

The most important thing would be categorize who supports the rights of the Palestinians "to live" v. who supports the Palestinians right to "defend themselves" v. who support the actions of Hamas. This thing is an onion, and trying to lump this all into one group is ignorant. And then there is the history and understanding the history. The older someone is, the more they understand a broader story arc here. People who are 20... weren't even alive when the suicide bombings were happening in Israel. For the life of me, I don't know why you jump to anti-Semitism when ignorance of history is a more clear thing happening now. You label them all as anti-Semites, instead of trying to help them understand what in the heck has been going on.

So I'm supposed to teach 20th century history to young people online?

Yes. If you think the honest expression of ideas and trying to correct things you think are wrong is outside the scope of being on the Internet... what are you doing here?

Sorry, but it's incumbent on the individual to educate themselves; to ask the basic questions of when, where, who, and why.

Embrace the ignroance!

With respect to anti-semitism, there are hundreds of examples of Jewish students being harassed, threatened, and even assaulted on American college campuses directly due to the conflicts in the ME.

Sure, anti-Semitism is a thing. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said that automatically judging someone questioning Israeli military decisions or supporting a viable standard of living for the Palestinians isn't necessarily mired in anti-Semitism. There were people in America that cheered the attack on Israel, partied even. Those people, likely anti-Semitic.

Professors have conducted themselves similarly. Some students have gone so far as to hide their Jewish identity in order to avoid being singled out.

That sounds historically familiar to me. I don't know how else to see this thing as anything but anti-semitism being endorsed by a significant portion of the left.

That is your problem. I'm sorry you are incapable of understanding perspectives or even what another person thinks.

With respect to the DNC, they deserve credit for speaking out against this, but extremist dissent has unfortunately watered down any unified policy damning what's happening. The DNC needs to exorcise these voices from the party.

They should. Of course, it wouldn't require remotely as much as cleansing it from the GOP and their media empire.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And yet if Israel reponds to terrorism in any way they are accused of disappropriate response or war crimes etc.

This is bullshit.

Israel has responded to terrorism in the past under many different Prime Ministers and Administrations. It wasn't accused of committing acts of genocide when it didn't kill tens of thousands of civilians sheltering in places where Israel told them to go. It wasn't accused of committing war crimes when IDF soldiers weren't killing unarmed people trying to surrender, or tying civilians to the front of their trucks and driving around Mad Max style, or murdering paramedics and ambulance drivers traveling in a convoy to rescue wounded civilians with permission from Israeli authorities, or shooting people waiting in line for food, or targeting journalists, or other actual, genuine war crimes.

You haven't been paying attention. Israel is always accused of wrongdoing every time they hit anyone.

On the other hand, ignoring collateral consequences of the attacks on Hamas... Israel bombed and targeted Hamas for how long... and Hamas still exists. You keep supporting actions that you have admitted won't work. The only action that will is the defanging of Hamas via Iran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, the topic is Israel, so Israel should be expected to come up. Laughing Dog makes a viable opinion indicating that there is a tremendous amount of support for Israel and that criticism a decision by the Israeli military or Government isn't defaulting to anti-Semitism. People love to use terms of bigotry to shut other people up. The people doing this blame blacks for doing the same thing, calling all things "racism" when it is just "disparate outcomes".

You pretend it's not defaulting to antisemitism, but look at the reaction to that letter from Australia--not seeing how horrible it is means antisemitism is the default view.

You do not have to stay mute but you have spent 1000's of words castigating Israel and the Israeli response.

I wrote after 9/11 that in the future the misery must be remembered as the attack on 9/11, not our response to it. Israel's response to Hamas became somewhat repetitive and pointless after 18+ months. The West gave Israel a blank check. Even Canada looked the other way after 10/7. But Netanyahu's military response was clearly leading to a no where goal. And after one or two years, at some point, need to stop because what has been achieved? Mossad's attack on Hezbollah was substantial and relatively clean. And yet Hezbollah still exists. Israel has failed in eradicating Hezbollah and Hamas with bombs, missiles, and bullets.

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th? Or what needs to be done to stop Hezbollah shelling northern Israel?

Getting Iran to stop funding it. And oddly enough, there is an agreement that could have involved that. Of which the GOP and Trump have not put a dyne of pressure on Iran to do that! laughing dog is a red herring. What laughing dog says here is irrelevant. The GOP and Trump have a moment in which they could press for this, and they aren't touching it with a 1000 meter long pole. All this bullshit about how the liberals are anti-Semites, and we see where the GOP actually stands on Israel!

There has never been an agreement that would have involved not funding Hamas. Nothing even close.

 

[Gospel]

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

The "primary goal" was never the only goal. From the outset, Israel's stated objectives included securing the release of the hostages, dismantling Hamas's military and governing capabilities, demilitarizing Gaza, and ultimately enabling an alternative Palestinian leadership to take its place.

What I don't understand is why you keep invoking Israel and the Jewish people to support arguments that neither the Israeli government, nor much of the Israeli public, is actually making. You're arguing here as though Israel's position is simply "get the hostages back and call it a day," when that has not been the stated position throughout this conflict.

 

[Derec]

An UN commission finds fault with Israel? I think we've seen remakes of that movie for decades.

Around 30% of those killed in the Gaza war were children, the report found.

These reports define anyone <18 as "children". However, terror groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad routinely recruit minors. That means that being a minor does not ipso facto mean that one is a non-combatant.
Note also that ~50% of Gazan population are minors, and so 30% means that minors are significantly less likely to be killed than adults.
Also, if you look at the more detailed fatality profile, teenage males - who are often combatants - are far more likely to be killed than either actual children or female teeangers.

In reality, this is whom IDF actually targets:
IDF: Oct. 7 terrorist who held Omer Shem Tov hostage killed in recent Gaza strike
Israel says it 'eliminated' two Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives tied to major funding network
Finally naming their war dead, Gazan terror groups admit some slain journalists were fighters

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, the topic is Israel, so Israel should be expected to come up. Laughing Dog makes a viable opinion indicating that there is a tremendous amount of support for Israel and that criticism a decision by the Israeli military or Government isn't defaulting to anti-Semitism. People love to use terms of bigotry to shut other people up. The people doing this blame blacks for doing the same thing, calling all things "racism" when it is just "disparate outcomes".

You pretend it's not defaulting to antisemitism, but look at the reaction to that letter from Australia--not seeing how horrible it is means antisemitism is the default view.

Please elaborate both the letter you are specifically speaking of and the anti-Semitism in it.

You do not have to stay mute but you have spent 1000's of words castigating Israel and the Israeli response.

I wrote after 9/11 that in the future the misery must be remembered as the attack on 9/11, not our response to it. Israel's response to Hamas became somewhat repetitive and pointless after 18+ months. The West gave Israel a blank check. Even Canada looked the other way after 10/7. But Netanyahu's military response was clearly leading to a no where goal. And after one or two years, at some point, need to stop because what has been achieved? Mossad's attack on Hezbollah was substantial and relatively clean. And yet Hezbollah still exists. Israel has failed in eradicating Hezbollah and Hamas with bombs, missiles, and bullets.

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

Do you actually believe the "primary goal" of the bombings was to get the hostages back?

The primary goal was retribution. I get it. Nothing particularly wrong there. All the western world got it too. And looked the other way as Israel did what they felt was necessary. Mossad enacted the Hezbollah communication plot as well. But none of that was going to get hostages returned. And the bombings went on longer than needed to effect the return of the remaining hostages. The attacks could have ended at 12 months with the same result.

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th? Or what needs to be done to stop Hezbollah shelling northern Israel?

Getting Iran to stop funding it. And oddly enough, there is an agreement that could have involved that. Of which the GOP and Trump have not put a dyne of pressure on Iran to do that! laughing dog is a red herring. What laughing dog says here is irrelevant. The GOP and Trump have a moment in which they could press for this, and they aren't touching it with a 1000 meter long pole. All this bullshit about how the liberals are anti-Semites, and we see where the GOP actually stands on Israel!

There has never been an agreement that would have involved not funding Hamas. Nothing even close.

Sure and Jordan and Egypt would always be at war with Israel too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th?

Do you really think you could stop another October 7th? It was done with small arms and motorcycles. It could easily be repeated.

The problem is that Israel is held to a standard that Hamas/Hezbollah et. al are not.
When Hamas/Hezbollah do what they do there is sighing, clutching of pearls, attack of vapours etc. but nothing is done.
When Israel responds we get calls of possible war crimes, disproportionate response, 'haul them to the Hague', sanctions etc. Why the difference?

Hamas is dog bites man. Israel is man bites dog.

So? The fact that evil is normal doesn't make it not evil.

 

[Tigers!]

It is indeed reasonable to hold governments responsible, so why is Hamas held to no standard while Israel is held to impossible standards? I cannot help but see hypocrisy and antisemitism as core elements of this support.

I keep seeing the meme of “Hamas is not held accountable” but it is a fiction. It is designated as a terrorist organization by the US, the EU, Canada, and many other nations. There are sanctions, and continual assassinations. The US subsidizes Israel’s military.

What more is the world supposed to do? Stay mute regardless whatever the gov’t of Israel chooses to do?

Your last line is the problem. Its all about Israel isn't it?
You do not have to stay mute but you have spent 1000's of words castigating Israel and the Israeli response.
How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th? Or what needs to be done to stop Hezbollah shelling northern Israel?
Designating Hamas as terrorist organisation did not prevent Oct 7th.

You didn’t answer either of my questions. They weren’t rhetorical. I wonder why.

I did answer "Stay mute .....".

Read you own words. You wrote “You don’t have to stay mute”. Which doesn’t answer the question about the world, because the workd doesn’t stay mute.

For a change how about actually reading my words rather than responding to what you think I wrote or wanted me to write.

Take your own advice.

Tell us - how can we (i.e. not Israel) stop Hamas doing what Hamas does best (killing Jews)?

You still haven’t answered my actual question.

Looking back your question was "What is the world supposed to do? Stay mute regardless whatever the gov’t of Israel chooses to do?"
You and many others have not stayed mute. This thread and your contributions are evidence of that. Your raging at Israel is duly noted. That is the 2nd part of your question already answered.
As to the 1st part "What is the world supposed to do?". Are you referring to Israel, Hamas or both?
The world has already shown what it will do to Israel.
Still waiting for the world's response to Hamas. Apart from wailing and gnashing of teeth that is.
You can start. What should the world do about Hamas?

Hamas is still getting some supplies. From where? Not likely fro the Israeli army. The only land border Hanass can use is with Egypt.
Egypt needs to do more to stop the Hamas pipeline, badly damaged as they are.

 

[Tigers!]

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th?

Do you really think you could stop another October 7th? It was done with small arms and motorcycles. It could easily be repeated.

So Israel just has to put up with the possibility of such attacks forever?