Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

Or the sources they cite. Toni also hasn't said people should be allowed to abort till the cows come home. Her position is it is between the doctor and patient, a position that is unquestioned about any treatment a dude might get.

Nah, this is a dodge, and I think Toni is playing a bit of motte and Bailey.

When asked directly about her personal opinion for late abortions, she provides non-answers. She says it should be between the doctor and mother… which avoids her view completely and allows for abortions up to the last minute. When that’s pointed out, she hedges and implies late abortions don’t happen without a medical need, which again is a dodge that avoids having to give her own opinion. Or she points to women in Texas dying under completely different rules than I’ve advocated.

It’s perfect fine to say “I don’t know” or “I’m undecided”. It’s also fine to say “I would prefer x but I’m hesitant to advocate for that because y”.

But that’s not what most of the posters in this thread do. Instead of actually providing their personal views, they hedge and give non-answers, or they turn it into an attack.

LD doesn’t. And even though his view is far away from mine, I respect that he actually states and stands by it without going on the attack.

I’m not playing games. I am no longer capable of becoming pregnant for multiple reasons. This is a conundrum I will never face and have never faced.

As I’ve stated, I don’t think that I can or should nor should any legislature decide by what criteria someone else must utilize when making decisions with respect to their health and their own desires and needs.

I’ve also stated that long ago, fir a very brief amount of time, I realized that I could possibly be pregnant and I determined that if I were, nothing would compel me to have that baby, if it meant ending my life. Which sounds very dramatic but as I said: I was young. But I meant it and when I look back at that time, yes: I would have had an abortion though it meant traveling across state lines, borrowing money and lying to a lot of people.

And I’ve noted that right up until that moment , I believed that abortion was wrong except in cases of rape or if the woman’s life was in danger. I would have also included severe birth defects if I had thought of it.

So I am extremely aware that people who think they believe one thing sometimes discover they don’t really believe that thing when it is their life or the life of someone they care about on the line. Very vocal opponents of abortion quietly arrange such procedures for daughters or mistresses or subordinates. Which counts as hypocrisy if they are still spouting anti-abortion bullshit. Changing one’s mind? Not so much.

I never wanted to get married. I’m married.
I never wanted to be a stay at home mom, but I did it for decades. I’ve held several jobs I swore I’d never do. I’ve made decisions that went against my personal best interests in favor of the best interests of someone I love. And failed to choose other people’s needs over mine, as well.

I’ve lived long enough to learn not to judge other people or at least to try not to. And to accept that people make decisions I don’t agree with for reasons I don’t agree with all the damn time. But they are their decisions. Not mine. And they have to live with them.

I have many many opinions. But they don’t matter with regards to other people’s lives.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Once again, just because Texas is stupid doesn’t mean we have to be stupid in the opposite direction.

This isn't a case of Texas is stupid. Rather, Texas is saying the enacting and enforcing the legislation to do the quiet part out loud.

Some modifications applied.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One difference is that a fetus has no consciousness and no will.

So does someone in a coma after an accident or surgery.

Said person is temporarily not conscious, their mind still exists. Until at the earliest the 7th month there is no consciousness, thus no mind exists.

 

[Elixir]

When else in considered perrmissible to kill another just because you wish too?

I dunno about “else”, but any time another organism is living on my blood oxygen, I feel quite at liberty to get rid of it.
YMMV, and it would be the height of hubris for me to dictate or restrict others’ options in that regard.

If you’re piloting a plane, your passengers are living on your blood oxygen.

While the human body does expel a small amount of oxygen, it's far less than it takes in. The oxygen must be present before hand to be breathed in. If outside oxygen isn't added to the system, everyone will slowly die from the lack of oxygen.

Pilot doesn't have blood oxygen, plane goes in, passengers die.

Not if I’m a passenger. I mean they still might die, but I’ll do my best to land it safely. In any event nobody is in danger of dying from lack of oxygen, rapid deceleration will make that question moot.

 

[Elixir]

A fetus is not autonomous. It cannot survive outside the mother’s body. It depends upon her heart, her lungs, her brain, her circulatory system, kidneys, digestive system, immune system: all of the woman’s body’s functions make the fetus’ continued existence possible.

At 28 weeks development it can - and it frequently does!

Requiring a huge amount of medical intervention that can run into the millions of dollars. Just saying.

And when they spend millions saving you you probably don't come through it anything like intact.

That’s why we need to force fetuses who are saved at 28 weeks, to sign a consent form stating that they were aware of the risks, but agreed to the application of extreme measures to ensure the continuation of their body’s metabolic functions, despite certainty that they will never do anything in life other than ensure their parents’ bankruptcy.

 

[Bomb#20]

I know the pilot scenario isn’t what you had in mind; I don’t know how you’d go about making your explanation of when you’ll feel at liberty to get rid of an organism more precise; but that’s not important since I know you can if you set your mind to it. What I don’t know that is important is why you think whatever hair-splitting distinction you’ll come up with is morally significant. Why does it make a difference whether the oxygen and nutrients they’re relying on your blood to keep transporting in order to not die are yours or theirs? It was in hope that you’d explain that that I brought up pilots.

... You choose to do something which puts others in danger if you don't finish the job, you are under a legal obligation to finish the job. ...

Bingo.

 

[Toni]

I often wish that people would invest as much time and energy, thought, and even money into devoting necessary resources to make abortions less often the best option.

This includes better prenatal and postnatal and pediatric care, better and fully funded early childhood education and day care, equal pay for equal work, affordable housing, affordable education pre-k-university, better support for mental health, better and universal sex education including birth control, and the prevention of STIs, elimination of food deserts and expansion of SNAP benefits, better education about sex, consent, and healthy relationships and respect for our bodies and other people’s bodies and establishing and respecting boundaries.

 

[Elixir]

This includes better prenatal and postnatal and pediatric care, better and fully funded early childhood education and day care, equal pay for equal work, affordable housing, affordable education pre-k-university, better support for mental health, better and universal sex education including birth control, and the prevention of STIs, elimination of food deserts and expansion of SNAP benefits, better education about sex, consent, and healthy relationships and respect for our bodies and other people’s bodies and establishing and respecting boundaries.

Right? Mental health is important.

 

[Emily Lake]

It’s really sad that you cannot see a pregnant girl or woman as innocent and are happy to relegate her to bystander status with regards to her own body.

Shocker, but I'm actually capable of seeing both the pregnant women AND the baby as being innocent, and advocating that NEITHER should be subject to murder.

 

[Emily Lake]

A fetus at any stage of development is less sentient than the mother. Forcing a pregnant woman to deliver a child against her will is morally depraved in my opinion.

A toddler is also less sentiate than the mother.

Defending a 30 week developed baby against injury and death because it's outside the womb, while condoning the murder of a 30 week developed baby inside the womb seems morally depraved to me.

 

[Emily Lake]

C’mon people, would it kill y’all to only post the part to which you are responding?
This is useless;
View attachment 54910

NO kidding. I spend a lot of time selecting what I want to respond to, and editing out the parts that don't apply. It would be nice if other people would do the same.

It would be even nicer if @RayJ would just limit how many quotes get included when you reply - I know for a fact that it can be done. Another forum I'm a member of only quotes the immediate prior post, and they're using the exact same software.

 

[Emily Lake]

What I think: Anyone who opposes abortions should not have one. Anyone who opposes abortions for X reason should not have an abortion for X reason.

Funny. That could be applied to slavery too.
Don't like slavery. Do not own any slaves.

Don't like stealing? Don't steal stuff.
Don't like murdering? Don't murder people.
Don't like child abuse? Don't abuse children.

It works for lots of things... and not necessarily in a good way.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, because the pain, inconvenience, possible postpartum depression and risks of injury and death to an actual sentient woman don’t matter at all. It’s as if the woman doesn’t count at after the magic date on the calendar.

The death of the unborn doesn't matter at all. If as if the unborn does not count after a magic date on the calendar.

It's not a magic date. The date doesn't matter to LD. It's the magical hands of the magical midwife and/or doctor.

 

[Emily Lake]

It’s really sad that you cannot see a pregnant girl or woman as innocent and are happy to relegate her to bystander status with regards to her own body.

The unborn is innocent too. It did not request, demand to be conceived.
It is relegated to disposable (or perhaps nuisance is a better word?) status with regard to its own body.
It's only crime (sic) to be unwanted or a nuisance.
In no time or place do we allow humans to be killed because they are unwanted or a nuisance.

One difference is that a fetus has no consciousness and no will.

Please clarify - are you asserting that a 30 week premie has a consciousness and will, and that a 30 week baby still inside the womb has none?

 

[Emily Lake]

Mandating that a woman carry a fetus against her will is extremely dehumanizing. A pregnant woman is not breeding livestock.

Do you think it's dehumanizing to mandate that a parent must feed and clothe their newborn rather than letting them starve to death?

 

[Emily Lake]

Do you know why women have never been drafted? Because sufficient numbers of women have always volunteered to fill every role that women were allowed to have.

Are you quite certain of this?

I'm pretty sure it's because women are needed to make more humans, and up until very recently, women were needed to feed the tiny humans. Continuity of the species depends on having enough females; only a relative few males are required.

 

[Emily Lake]

[Emphasis added]
Therein lies the problem: it's not 30 people. Both of you fell for the deception and are taking the survey at face value. Read more carefully. The flyers were distributed as part of the discharge packet and were distributed in various other places. It's not that Jarhyn and I think there might be a couple of liars amongst 30 women, but that we think there might be a couple of liars amongst uncounted women.

Because the author - who is a proponent of more accessible abortion - went out of their way to ignore the many uncounted women who had third trimester abortions in favor of only reporting the handful that supported their view that more accessible abortions would result in fewer third trimester abortions?

Your arguments against the study don't even make sense, Loren.

 

[Emily Lake]

Of course they don't. But this is a contentious topic, I would be astounded at the medical records not containing documentation as to why they were having a third trimester abortion. There has been a very long-running attempt to frame such abortions as convenience, I find it preposterous to think a clinic would not take care to document that they were doing it for the right reason.

That is one of the most bizarre unsupported assertions I've seen in a long time.

Doctor's don't document the motivations for other services, but somehow you think they would go out of their way to do so for this? Why on earth?

And what are the "right reasons" when you take the position that no reason is required at all?

 

[Emily Lake]

Survival is not binary. The survival limit is normally oxygen. Thus your 90% survival is 10% who are suffocated to death and the rest are probably damaged.

Less than 20% have moderate issues.

 

[Emily Lake]

Exactly. Most abortions that are later in the pregnancy were WANTED pregnancies and there is a lot of grief associated with it. But it's often the best decision medically. No govt/politician/lawmaker/person other than the family involved and the doctor should have ANY input.

If you believe this to be true, then why do you oppose requiring a medical reason be documented that late in the pregnancy?

The problem with this is that you think that it's not being done now. Doctors write down why they do things!

They write down the DIAGNOSIS for why they do things.

Are you coming around to my perspective, and advocating that a MEDICAL REASON must be present and documented for a third trimester abortion?