Roe v Wade is on deck

[Emily Lake]

What always gets me is how Emily Lake can 'agree' on a main principle, but somehow it always derails into the weeds.

This reads like you’re blaming me for the incessant details that other people keep bringing up. Perhaps I’m wrong, but the scare quotes around agree certainly come across that way.

Because you're being Republican about it--always trying to slip in more restrictions when there is an appearance of agreement.

Bullshit. I haven't tried to slip in more restrictions at all. So fuck off with the shit you're making up.

 

[Emily Lake]

If induction is a reasonable option it's always the preferred choice. AFIAK we all think so. Third trimester abortions are either something went wrong with the pregnancy or there's something seriously wrong with the fetus.

I truly admire how your unwavering confidence manages to survive completely unburdened by the presence of facts.

 

[Emily Lake]

Right now, to a pretty good approximation, Massachusetts has the abortion law of Emily’s dreams and Oregon has the abortion law of Toni’s dreams. If Democrats collectively decide Toni’s view is right, they have the power to make Massachusetts switch to Oregon rules, and vice versa. Abortion for nonmedical reasons is currently legal up to viability; afterwards it’s a felony. Toni is arguing that third-trimester abortion for non-medical reasons should be legal. That would convert all such abortions in Massachusetts into legal killings. So in what substantive way do you figure I mischaracterized Toni’s view?

This isn’t academic. The lower house passed a bill to do just that.

Think about why they did that.

I don't like third trimester abortions, but I think it's better for them to be basically unregulated--because I trust the doctor's decisions a lot more than I trust the politician's decisions. Nothing's perfect--but I think the doctors will get it wrong a lot less often than the politicians.

You know that some doctors will hold the same views as Laughing Dog, don't you?

 

[Emily Lake]

Another crux of the whole discussion.
If the mother wants to kill the foetus (with or within the help of others) that is considered permissible. But if some else wants to kill it or does kill the foetus that is not permissible.
When else in considered perrmissible to kill another just because you wish too?

You can throw away your own property, others can't.

And, to me, until there's a mind it's property, not a person.

Pray tell, how exactly does a 30 week prematurely delivered baby acquire a mind? Or do you believe that the mother of a 30 week prematurely delivered baby can destroy their own "property"?

 

[Emily Lake]

The connection to slavery is not as you suggest. You are suggesting that women men must give up control of their bodies, and their lives, even against their will, much as slaves were forced to give up control of their bodies abd their lives, against their will.

FIFY. We have this right now, legally. Its called conscription.

And the last time there was a draft was... *checks notes* 1973. Though I hear the regressives might want to bring it back.

Which does not contradict anything I said. Or change the fact that many hundreds of thousands of men have lost their lives because the government "forced them to give up control of their bodies abd their lives, against their will".

For the record: I oppose the draft.

You know who opposes the draft? Commies, that's who.

Huh. Not sure how I feel about being commied against my will.

 

[Emily Lake]

That's why the government mandated preventative health stuff be covered at 100%

AMA has one hell of a lobbying branch.

 

[Emily Lake]

As I’ve stated, I don’t think that I can or should nor should any legislature decide by what criteria someone else must utilize when making decisions with respect to their health and their own desires and needs.

Quesstion I asked: What is your personal belief about the acceptability of X
What you respond: I don't think I should have an opinion

At which point you proceed to be a snotrag to those of us who do have an opinion.

So clearly you HAVE an opinion, but you don't want to SAY your opinion. Either you think it's morally acceptable and appropriate for an abortion to be performed up to the due date with no medical reason whatsoever... or you do not. If you want to say you have no opinion, then have no opinion - neither for nor against those of us who do have an opinion.

 

[Toni]

A fetus at any stage of development is less sentient than the mother. Forcing a pregnant woman to deliver a child against her will is morally depraved in my opinion.

A toddler is also less sentiate than the mother.

Defending a 30 week developed baby against injury and death because it's outside the womb, while condoning the murder of a 30 week developed baby inside the womb seems morally depraved to me.

You seem to have this fantasy that women carry a fetus abd somewhere around week 30, age just goes: I don’t think I want this baby, walks into a clinic abd they say okey dokey.

That’s some pretty fucked up fantasy you have going on. Like, maybe you should see someone about this.

Maybe do some reading about why women have later abortions.

The reasons for termination of pregnancy in the third trimester - PubMed

One-third of late terminations of pregnancy could have been avoided by more efficient screening in the second trimester. However, because fetal prognosis is not always clear when a malformation is diagnosed, postponing the decision until fetal development allows more thorough evaluation and may...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A consecutive series of 956 terminations of pregnancy performed for fetal anomalies in singleton pregnancies, 305 of which were in the third trimester and 651 in the second.

Main outcome measures: Indications for termination of pregnancy; process leading to late termination of pregnancy; maternal morbidity.

Results: One hundred and thirteen (37%) third trimester terminations of pregnancy were associated with false negative resulted from the results of earlier screening tests. In 15 terminations (5%), the decision was postponed, although the poor fetal prognosis was established earlier. In 55 (18%) the diagnosis was not possible earlier than the third trimester, and in 122 (40%) the diagnosis was possible earlier but the poor prognosis for the fetus was not established until the third trimester. Maternal morbidity due to termination of pregnancy was similar in the second and third trimester.

When women terminate a pregnancy late in the pregnancy it is not the outcome they wanted.

 

[Emily Lake]

One difference is that a fetus has no consciousness and no will.

So does someone in a coma after an accident or surgery.

Said person is temporarily not conscious, their mind still exists. Until at the earliest the 7th month there is no consciousness, thus no mind exists.

Glad to see you coming around to my perspective on this.

Doctors seem to disagree with your very confident opinion, however.

The Awakening of the Newborn Human Infant and the Emergence of Consciousness - PMC

Consciousness develops gradually in the womb and after birth, rather than being an all or none phenomenon. A newborn infant is aroused and wakes up at birth, due to the enormous sensory stimulation and stress that it undergoes during the transition ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Consciousness develops gradually in the womb and after birth, rather than being an all or none phenomenon. A newborn infant is aroused and wakes up at birth, due to the enormous sensory stimulation and stress that it undergoes during the transition from an aquatic environment to air. Its first breaths activate the locus coeruleus, as indicated by the large pupils of the newborn. The infant seems to be aware of its body and can recognise its mother's facial expressions, voice and smell. A default mode network matures soon after birth which appears to keep the brain in a conscious state. Thus the newborn infant is probably conscious, albeit at a low level. The foetus also shows some signs of being conscious after about 24 weeks of gestation, although it is mainly asleep in the womb and less aware of its environment. Before that stage, the nerves from the primary somatosensory, visual and auditory areas are not yet connected with the site of consciousness in the cerebral cortex.

 

[Emily Lake]

I often wish that people would invest as much time and energy, thought, and even money into devoting necessary resources to make abortions less often the best option.

This includes better prenatal and postnatal and pediatric care, better and fully funded early childhood education and day care, equal pay for equal work, affordable housing, affordable education pre-k-university, better support for mental health, better and universal sex education including birth control, and the prevention of STIs, elimination of food deserts and expansion of SNAP benefits, better education about sex, consent, and healthy relationships and respect for our bodies and other people’s bodies and establishing and respecting boundaries.

Why do you baselessly assume that I don't support those things?

 

[Toni]

Do you know why women have never been drafted? Because sufficient numbers of women have always volunteered to fill every role that women were allowed to have.

Are you quite certain of this?

I'm pretty sure it's because women are needed to make more humans, and up until very recently, women were needed to feed the tiny humans. Continuity of the species depends on having enough females; only a relative few males are required.

Yeah, I’m absolutely certain.

Women have always gone to war to fight, to serve as nurses, to serve whatever roles they could. Often that involved disguising their sex, in addition to the regular dangers they faced. During Viet Nam, women who were nurses volunteered to serve in the war to help defray their brothers risking their own lives.

There’s a lot of history of women in battle..

 

[Emily Lake]

You seem to have this fantasy that women carry a fetus abd somewhere around week 30, age just goes: I don’t think I want this baby, walks into a clinic abd they say okey dokey.

That’s some pretty fucked up fantasy you have going on. Like, maybe you should see someone about this.

"It never happens because I said so"

 

[Emily Lake]

Do you know why women have never been drafted? Because sufficient numbers of women have always volunteered to fill every role that women were allowed to have.

Are you quite certain of this?

I'm pretty sure it's because women are needed to make more humans, and up until very recently, women were needed to feed the tiny humans. Continuity of the species depends on having enough females; only a relative few males are required.

Yeah, I’m absolutely certain.

Women have always gone to war to fight, to serve as nurses, to serve whatever roles they could. Often that involved disguising their sex, in addition to the regular dangers they faced. During Viet Nam, women who were nurses volunteered to serve in the war to help defray their brothers risking their own lives.

There’s a lot of history of women in battle..

That's not the claim you made though. You claimed that women have never been drafted because there are always enough volunteers.

 

[laughing dog]

A fetus at any stage of development is less sentient than the mother. Forcing a pregnant woman to deliver a child against her will is morally depraved in my opinion.

A toddler is also less sentiate than the mother.

And not inside the mother.

Defending a 30 week developed baby against injury and death because it's outside the womb, while condoning the murder of a 30 week developed baby inside the womb seems morally depraved to me.

You condone the murder of a 30 week developed baby if its birth threatens the life of the mother.

 

[Tigers!]

Do you know why women have never been drafted? Because sufficient numbers of women have always volunteered to fill every role that women were allowed to have.

Are you quite certain of this?

I'm pretty sure it's because women are needed to make more humans, and up until very recently, women were needed to feed the tiny humans. Continuity of the species depends on having enough females; only a relative few males are required.

Shh. Do not say that last sentence too loudly. Some will get ideas.

 

[Tigers!]

A fetus at any stage of development is less sentient than the mother. Forcing a pregnant woman to deliver a child against her will is morally depraved in my opinion.

A toddler is also less sentiate than the mother.

And not inside the mother.

Defending a 30 week developed baby against injury and death because it's outside the womb, while condoning the murder of a 30 week developed baby inside the womb seems morally depraved to me.

You condone the murder of a 30 week developed baby if its birth threatens the life of the mother.

Do you condone the murder of a 30 week developed baby if its birth does not threaten the life of the mother?

 

[Tigers!]

I often wish that people would invest as much time and energy, thought, and even money into devoting necessary resources to make abortions less often the best option.

This includes better prenatal and postnatal and pediatric care, better and fully funded early childhood education and day care, equal pay for equal work, affordable housing, affordable education pre-k-university, better support for mental health, better and universal sex education including birth control, and the prevention of STIs, elimination of food deserts and expansion of SNAP benefits, better education about sex, consent, and healthy relationships and respect for our bodies and other people’s bodies and establishing and respecting boundaries.

Why do you baselessly assume that I don't support those things?

Because its less effort?

 

[Toni]

You seem to have this fantasy that women carry a fetus abd somewhere around week 30, age just goes: I don’t think I want this baby, walks into a clinic abd they say okey dokey.

That’s some pretty fucked up fantasy you have going on. Like, maybe you should see someone about this.

"It never happens because I said so"

“It must happen because I made it up in my head.” Plus clinics are just crawling with doctors who are delighted to perform abortions all day long. They make so much money!!

 

[Toni]

Do you know why women have never been drafted? Because sufficient numbers of women have always volunteered to fill every role that women were allowed to have.

Are you quite certain of this?

I'm pretty sure it's because women are needed to make more humans, and up until very recently, women were needed to feed the tiny humans. Continuity of the species depends on having enough females; only a relative few males are required.

Yeah, I’m absolutely certain.

Women have always gone to war to fight, to serve as nurses, to serve whatever roles they could. Often that involved disguising their sex, in addition to the regular dangers they faced. During Viet Nam, women who were nurses volunteered to serve in the war to help defray their brothers risking their own lives.

There’s a lot of history of women in battle..

That's not the claim you made though. You claimed that women have never been drafted because there are always enough volunteers.

There are always enough women who volunteer to fill any and all roles that women were allowed to hold.

 

[Toni]

I often wish that people would invest as much time and energy, thought, and even money into devoting necessary resources to make abortions less often the best option.

This includes better prenatal and postnatal and pediatric care, better and fully funded early childhood education and day care, equal pay for equal work, affordable housing, affordable education pre-k-university, better support for mental health, better and universal sex education including birth control, and the prevention of STIs, elimination of food deserts and expansion of SNAP benefits, better education about sex, consent, and healthy relationships and respect for our bodies and other people’s bodies and establishing and respecting boundaries.

Why do you baselessly assume that I don't support those things?

Where did I direct that at you? Specifically.

It was a general statement. For a general audience.