MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

[laughing dog]

Does not have to be common for it to still occur with some regularity. We are a big country: ~330M people, perhaps some ~40M of them black. Even if the odds of a black person hanging themselves from a tree was as low as 1:10M per year, you'd still expect a few people to do it every year.

Apparently the victim's family does not subscribe to your analytics.

 

[thebeave]

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

My mother always told me that other people's misbehavior was not an excuse for mine. I don't always abide by her admonition, but I try to live by it.

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.

Saying "Bitch, please" is not the same as calling someone a "bitch" out of spite or anger. In recent years, its become somewhat of a playful joke amongst friends or acquaintances. Honestly, I don't think you're in a position to lecture people about being rude.

 

[Derec]

What do you think housing shortage does to the cost of living?

It increases it, obviously. But in any case, a high physician salary makes it easier to handle.

I made the mistake of believing the cost of living would be lower in a small town compared with the suburbs of a major city when we moved here.

We have already established from your descriptions in multiple threads that your town is a geographical oddity. In general though, real estate is cheaper in rural areas than in nearby metropolitan areas.

Our housing causes went up substantially, thanks to the perpetual housing shortage.

But it also went up in metro areas, so the Δ is still there, right?

There are advantages to living where I do but it is a big mistake to assume cost of living is less. We found it more.

There are certainly disadvantages too, but I doubt that on the whole the cost of living is not much less. Especially when you compare like with like. I.e. your area may have a lot of houses sitting on an acre or two, while that would be rare (and costly, since developers could put half a dozen houses on that lot instead) even in a suburb, much less in a city. For people who value space, they will put up with lack of underpants options and such.

 

[Toni]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

There's been a steady increase in suicides among black people for the past several years, regardless of where they live. There's been increased media attention to a small number of deaths by hanging of black people in the south. That doesn't mean that there is actually a statistically significant increase in them. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion of racist lynchings simply because the media turned a spotlight on a few and handed you a narrative.

Let's address suicidality across the board. There's no need to instigate racial division and tension in this.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

Family members frequently don't agree with an assessment of suicide. That doesn't make the assessment wrong. Families rarely want to believe that someone they loved killed themselves, and they didn't see it coming. It's a very common reaction.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

Bitch, please. I guarantee I have far more black family members in the south than you do. Stop trying to pretend like you're some noble white person out to save the poor helpless black folks. Set your original sin guilt aside.

Who the fuck do you really think you are to speak to me or any other person in this forum in such a manner?

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

I was rude? I don’t recall being rude.

 

[Derec]

Saying "Bitch, please" is not the same as calling someone a "bitch" out of spite or anger. In recent years, its become somewhat of a playful joke amongst friends or acquaintances. Honestly, I don't think you're in a position to lecture people about being rude.

 

[Derec]

Not very many people hang thenselves from trees. That’s No. 1

Doesn't matter. In a big country, even something that has a low probability on an individual level will still happen with regularity.

Number 2 is that for most black people whose grandparents were born in the US, there is a deep and horrific association of hanging black people from trees: lynching.

I think the lynching side discussion has little to do with the topic of this thread, and should perhaps be spun off, but there is a connection here.
Yes, lynchings did happen decades ago, but are exceedingly rare today. Especially as a fraction of all homicides.
I think this obsession with lynchings in a symptom of still living in the past. It's like you still believing that blacks are discriminated against when it comes to med school admissions, when the opposite is the case.

Not many black people in the US whose grandparents were born here would fail to make that connection.

And yet people like Malcolm Harsch, Robert Fuller, Michael George Smith etc. really did commit suicide by hanging themselves from trees.

I asked you before which cases you think are likely to be lynchings specifically. I do not think you replied to that.

 

[laughing dog]

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

My mother always told me that other people's misbehavior was not an excuse for mine. I don't always abide by her admonition, but I try to live by it.

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.

Saying "Bitch, please" is not the same as calling someone a "bitch" out of spite or anger.

Bitch, please, stop with the apologetics.

In recent years, its become somewhat of a playful joke amongst friends or acquaintances.

That memo has not reached my neck of the woods, nor apparently, Toni's

Honestly, I don't think you're in a position to lecture people about being rude.

Thank you church lady, but I wasn't lecturing - I was educating. If you call someone a bitch, don't be surprised if they get insulted. Pretty simple concept to grasp.

 

[Derec]

Um, practicing medicine is not a sport.

Duh, exactly. That makes it far more important to admit people based on individual merit, and not to press the thumb on the admissions scale based on somebody's skin color or whether or not their abuelitos hablaban español.

It requires the doctor to gain the trust and to emphasize with the client.

Saying that the doctor should be of the same race/ethnicity as the patient in order to be able to "gain trust" is pretty racist in itself.
And would you apply this universally? If a black patient should not trust a non-black doctor, is a white patient also right not to trust a white doctor? Of course not - you'd condemn that patient as racist, and rightly so. But for some reason it's ok when the patient is black.

Your analogy fails miserably.

It does not. The analogy was made for a specific point - to show the folly of applying different standards to increase "diversity" and "representation".

Thank you church lady, but I wasn't lecturing - I was educating.

LMAO!

 

[Derec]

Really? You got any evidence to support your suspicion?

Other than they marketing themselves as specifically black schools?

Since it was not the whole point of “race conscious “ admissions to discriminate against any group, your claim to the contrary is false.

In your mind, what do you think is the point of "race conscious admissions"? It is all about using race as a factor in making admissions decisions. In other words, discriminating by race.

 

[Derec]

Not that many people choose to hang themselves in a public place.

Again, it doesn't matter. It's sufficient that some do. Doesn't have to be "many".

Reasons that black people ( and any thinking person) might be suspicious of a black person hanging from a tree have been given.

Them being suspicious is not a reason to disregard evidence.
Again, do you have specific cases you think were actual lynchings? Because so far, all I've seen are generalities.

If you choose to pretend that lynching if black people in the South was not a huge thing in the not too distant past you can keep on pretending but no one is fooled by your denial.

There have been some lynchings many decades ago.

As you can see, the numbers went down to pretty much zero after WWII - which was some 80 years ago. And even at its peak, lynchings were a small fraction of all homicides.

Just like with admissions to med schools, you are living in the past.

 

[Derec]

Not all of the families of supposed suicide by hanging self from tree believe it was a suicide.

What families may or may not believe does not change what actually happened.

You can rage all you want but it dues not improve your case.

Ditto for you.

And please, Toni and Emily, do trim your quotes!

 

[thebeave]

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

My mother always told me that other people's misbehavior was not an excuse for mine. I don't always abide by her admonition, but I try to live by it.

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.

Saying "Bitch, please" is not the same as calling someone a "bitch" out of spite or anger.

Bitch, please, stop with the apologetics.

In recent years, its become somewhat of a playful joke amongst friends or acquaintances.

That memo has not reached my neck of the woods, nor apparently, Toni's

Honestly, I don't think you're in a position to lecture people about being rude.

Thank you church lady, but I wasn't lecturing - I was educating. If you call someone a bitch, don't be surprised if they get insulted. Pretty simple concept to grasp.

 

[Derec]

In my town, most doctors and other medical professionals do live very middle class lives.

Around here, they live upper middle class lives at least. Large houses, luxury cars, fancy vacations ...

By your calculations, your student debt was less than a year’s ( combined spouses) income.

Percetage of total income is not the same thing at $70k income as it is at $250k income. Percentage of your income that is disposable, i.e. not spent on necessities, is much higher at $250k.

Medical debt from med school alone—not including debt from undergrad time is equal to a year’s average wages for freshly minted MDs. Not including, of course, any student debt of partners or consumer debt accumulated nor the costs of joining a practice or starting their own practice.

Those that start their own practice can also make substantially more than $250k.

Consider that these are people who likely will wantto save for their own kids’ education. There is just not as much wiggle room as you may think. No MDs in my town driving Benz or Tesla’s or Beamers.

There is a physician I know who has four luxury cars in the family. Yes, he even bought his sons who are in medical school and college an AMG Merc and an X4M Beamer respectively. Again, I fail to see why I should (through my taxes) pay for their student loans so they can live even more luxurious lives.

The amount of debt is staggering. No one should be so burdened, whether they are an MD, a nurse, a teacher, a lawyer, a social worker, architect, etc.

Your argument certainly does not work for MDs (or even DOs) who are exceedingly well compensated in the US.

 

[Derec]

You're saying a new MD is making the average salary of all MDs in your state? How does that work?

Average physician salary is much higher though, >$400k.
$250-280k is probably quite realistic for new IM physicians.

 

[Derec]

Apparently the victim's family does not subscribe to your analytics.

That does not change reality.

And note that Toni still hasn't provided any specific examples of hangings that she thinks are actually lynchings.

 

[Toni]

In my town, most doctors and other medical professionals do live very middle class lives.

Around here, they live upper middle class lives at least. Large houses, luxury cars, fancy vacations ...

By your calculations, your student debt was less than a year’s ( combined spouses) income.

Percetage of total income is not the same thing at $70k income as it is at $250k income. Percentage of your income that is disposable, i.e. not spent on necessities, is much higher at $250k.

Medical debt from med school alone—not including debt from undergrad time is equal to a year’s average wages for freshly minted MDs. Not including, of course, any student debt of partners or consumer debt accumulated nor the costs of joining a practice or starting their own practice.

Those that start their own practice can also make substantially more than $250k.

Consider that these are people who likely will wantto save for their own kids’ education. There is just not as much wiggle room as you may think. No MDs in my town driving Benz or Tesla’s or Beamers.

There is a physician I know who has four luxury cars in the family. Yes, he even bought his sons who are in medical school and college an AMG Merc and an X4M Beamer respectively. Again, I fail to see why I should (through my taxes) pay for their student loans so they can live even more luxurious lives.

The amount of debt is staggering. No one should be so burdened, whether they are an MD, a nurse, a teacher, a lawyer, a social worker, architect, etc.

Your argument certainly does not work for MDs (or even DOs) who are exceedingly well compensated in the US.

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

Many people earn highest salaries in their 50’s compared with their salaries in their 30’s. That’s pretty normal.

I obviously don’t know the MD in your town but I doubt that his kids are taking out Ioans for tuition.

Many/most new graduates, whether from a 4 year or two year university or from law school or med school earn considerably less than they earn 20 + years down the road. Heck, I could afford extras for my younger kids when they were in elementary school that I couldn’t afford for my oldest at the same age.

 

[Derec]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

 

[laughing dog]

Apparently the victim's family does not subscribe to your analytics.

That does not change reality.

True. Neither did your analysis.

 

[laughing dog]

Really? You got any evidence to support your suspicion?

Other than they marketing themselves as specifically black schools?

Taking your assumption about their marketing as accurate, how is accurately depicting the history of the institution and its current demographics intentionally deterring or discouraging applicants from applying?

Since it was not the whole point of “race conscious “ admissions to discriminate against any group, your claim to the contrary is false.

In your mind, what do you think is the point of "race conscious admissions"? It is all about using race as a factor in making admissions decisions. In other words, discriminating by race.

Using ______ (fill in the blank) as a factor among many factors does not mean discriminating by that factor.

 

[Derec]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

Can you name some of them? This year I am aware of Tasia Fortune, which was a drug-related murder, not a racial lynching, and Trey Reed, whose death was almost certainly a suicide. Both incidentally happened in Mississippi, but in any case, I do not think that two cases a cluster make.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

That does not change the facts. I recall the case of high school student Kendrick Johnson in southern Georgia. He died accidentally when he became stuck in a rolled up, upright gym mat. Apparently, he and some other teens were in the habit of sharing expensive sneakers, storing them inside these mats. He must have gotten stuck trying to retrieve the shoes, and died of positional asphyxia. His family would not believe it for years, and they went on to accuse, without evidence, two white classmates of his of murder. It became quite a clusterfuck with the family filing a billion dollar lawsuit against the county because the investigation did not conclude what they wanted to hear.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones

That does not give them a special access to truth or what actually happened. And you are speaking in generalities: "recent cluster of black people" is quite non-specific. Again, I challenge you to give us some specific cases you think are lynchings.