MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

[Emily Lake]

The "debt from medical school" bit is overplayed IMO. It gets used by the medical community as an excuse for why they charge so much. A new MD making $250K+ should be doing okay, even with $190K of debt. And if they're really worried about the debt, they could work in the IHS or VA and get some of that debt forgiven.

You're saying a new MD is making the average salary of all MDs in your state? How does that work?

No, Toni said it's the average salary of a NEW MD in Family Practice in HER state.

I just did a google search of my state for average wages for a new MD in family practice and the average is between $250-280K/year. Nothing to sneeze at but there is a pretty big gap between having $70K in student t loans and the $197K in average student debt owed by freshly qualified MDs.

 

[ZiprHead]

The "debt from medical school" bit is overplayed IMO. It gets used by the medical community as an excuse for why they charge so much. A new MD making $250K+ should be doing okay, even with $190K of debt. And if they're really worried about the debt, they could work in the IHS or VA and get some of that debt forgiven.

You're saying a new MD is making the average salary of all MDs in your state? How does that work?

No, Toni said it's the average salary of a NEW MD in Family Practice in HER state.

I just did a google search of my state for average wages for a new MD in family practice and the average is between $250-280K/year. Nothing to sneeze at but there is a pretty big gap between having $70K in student t loans and the $197K in average student debt owed by freshly qualified MDs.

Oops. Missed that. Sorry.

 

[Toni]

Yes, it is more lucrative to be many kinds of doctors in the US.

It's very lucrative to be any kind of physician in the US, even peds. But of course, some specialties are much better compensated than others - think derm or surgical subspecialties.

However, in other countries, physicians do not graduate with several hundred thousand dollars of student debt.

Given physician salaries, these student loans are easily paid off.

Some specialties make a great deal more money than others. Some areas pay more than others (and have the commiserate higher costs of living).

Actually many LCOL rural areas pay doctors more because it's so hard to lure them to live in these areas otherwise.

Sigh. They are NOT ‘easily paid off.’ Young adults graduate with well over $100K in student loans and are of the age where if they intend to have children, they need to start that. And they are likely looking to buy a home. Rents are sky high even in my small hometown—not where I live now, where they are also pretty high. Cost of living for basic middle class is not cheap: vehicle ( or two), housing, groceries, utilities plus large student loan bills= little for savings.

I live in a mostly rural area. Most of the physicians who come to my town don’t stay long. Housing shortage, mediocre schools. Not great pay. Great for this town if you are t carrying huge debt but we’re still a low wage town.

Umm... I think you're really underestimating the pay. There are a few years of relatively low pay during residency, sure, but the average pay for a physician in the US is around $400,000. Even primary care has an average of over $300,000.

If they can't afford to live off of $300K while paying off a 30-year $100K loan, then maybe the should consider taking a close look at their lifestyle. Maybe they can get by with just a Kia for a while before they upgrade to a couple of Mercedes.

I paid off my $70K in student loans in 16 years, while making far less than that. I still don't make that and Im over a quarter of a century into my career. Short of becoming a VP or higher, I'm considered well-compensated.

I just did a google search of my state for average wages for a new MD in family practice and the average is between $250-280K/year. Nothing to sneeze at but there is a pretty big gap between having $70K in student t loans and the $197K in average student debt owed by freshly qualified MDs.

Purchasing a home and paying for daycare are pretty much equal in terms of monthly expenses. Average home payment ( per month) for first time home owner is more than $2300/month. Average daycare cost for infant in my state varies widely by region but minimum $1400/month up to $2800/month. Average loan repayment is about $2800/month.

My husband’s car payment for a very average vehicle purchased 5 years ago is $800/month. Mine is paid off. Our utilities top $1000/month. Our grocery bill is about $1000 a month for two of us.

Neither of us are physicians. I never had any student debt. My husband’s student debt was laughably tiny.


So maybe I’m not the one who is out of touch.

The other thing to consider: Other people’s money always stretches further than your money does.

The "debt from medical school" bit is overplayed IMO. It gets used by the medical community as an excuse for why they charge so much. A new MD making $250K+ should be doing okay, even with $190K of debt. And if they're really worried about the debt, they could work in the IHS or VA and get some of that debt forgiven.

I graduated with $70K in debt, and a combined income between me and my spouse of about $80K. Yes, things are expensive, I'm not contesting that. And no, doctors don't have a negligible amount of debt. But if you actually look around, they're not scraping by and roughing it either. Almost universally, doctors lead very comfortable lives with plenty of luxuries that most people don't have. If the debt really were as crushing as doctors make it out to be... they'd be living much more middle class lives than they actually do.

I tend to view this entire argument the way most socialists view the financial woes of millionaires. I can understand that to them, they seem like the end of the world. But to most people, they're objectively not that big a deal.

1.i did not state that there are many lynchings currently. I stated that there have been a number of recent hangings that appears to be to possibly be lynching rather than suicide, as is often claimed. Most of the black community is skeptical of the suicide claims.

Why do you think this? Do you think that black people shouldn't commit suicide in the same ways that white people do for some reason?

not many people commit suicide by hanging themselves from trees.

Sure. The google says:

In the United States, roughly 220 people per year commit suicide by hanging themselves from trees, based on comprehensive epidemiological data.
While public health agencies like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) track overarching numbers for "suffocation" (which includes hangings and asphyxiation), detailed breakdowns of specific anchors and ligatures require deep epidemiological study. [1]
An extensive analysis published in Injury Epidemiology evaluated data regarding asphyxiation suicides across the U.S. to understand the distribution of different environments and methods. [1]

Broader Public Health Context

• Overall Numbers: Annually, suffocation or hanging accounts for over 11,000 deaths in the United States, making it the second most common method of suicide behind firearms. [1]
• Research and Prevention: Public health researchers study these patterns to develop targeted prevention strategies, particularly concerning environmental safety and restricting access to common means in public and institutional settings. [1]

And you're talking about, what... a dozen black people? Out of 220 per year. So around 5% give or take, for a cohort that is about 14% of the total population.

I really do think this is political theater. I'm cynical and jaded, but I think this is people making a big deal out of it because it has optics they can leverage for political gain. It's certainly not a case of rampant racist lynchings.

Not all of the families of supposed suicide by hanging self from tree believe it was a suicide.

ORLY? What a shocker. Families often don't think the suicides of their loved ones are suicides...

You can rage all you want but it dues not improve your case.

I'm not raging. I'm merely failing to jump onto your rage train.

You're the one who seems to have decided that a dozen black people who died by hanging must be evidence of racist lynchings. Because reasons. My speculation is because someone on the internet told you it was lynchings. Never mind that all but one have been ruled suicides - that's obviously just because the entire investigative apparatus is in on the lynchings and are out to kill black folks, right?

And the one that was actually murder? Yeah, we can just keep talking about that one as a lynching, we'll just conveniently disregard the race of the perpetrator. It doesn't fit the narrative.

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South. Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment. You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

 

[Toni]

Yes, it is more lucrative to be many kinds of doctors in the US.

It's very lucrative to be any kind of physician in the US, even peds. But of course, some specialties are much better compensated than others - think derm or surgical subspecialties.

However, in other countries, physicians do not graduate with several hundred thousand dollars of student debt.

Given physician salaries, these student loans are easily paid off.

Some specialties make a great deal more money than others. Some areas pay more than others (and have the commiserate higher costs of living).

Actually many LCOL rural areas pay doctors more because it's so hard to lure them to live in these areas otherwise.

Sigh. They are NOT ‘easily paid off.’ Young adults graduate with well over $100K in student loans and are of the age where if they intend to have children, they need to start that. And they are likely looking to buy a home. Rents are sky high even in my small hometown—not where I live now, where they are also pretty high. Cost of living for basic middle class is not cheap: vehicle ( or two), housing, groceries, utilities plus large student loan bills= little for savings.

I live in a mostly rural area. Most of the physicians who come to my town don’t stay long. Housing shortage, mediocre schools. Not great pay. Great for this town if you are t carrying huge debt but we’re still a low wage town.

Umm... I think you're really underestimating the pay. There are a few years of relatively low pay during residency, sure, but the average pay for a physician in the US is around $400,000. Even primary care has an average of over $300,000.

If they can't afford to live off of $300K while paying off a 30-year $100K loan, then maybe the should consider taking a close look at their lifestyle. Maybe they can get by with just a Kia for a while before they upgrade to a couple of Mercedes.

I paid off my $70K in student loans in 16 years, while making far less than that. I still don't make that and Im over a quarter of a century into my career. Short of becoming a VP or higher, I'm considered well-compensated.

I just did a google search of my state for average wages for a new MD in family practice and the average is between $250-280K/year. Nothing to sneeze at but there is a pretty big gap between having $70K in student t loans and the $197K in average student debt owed by freshly qualified MDs.

Purchasing a home and paying for daycare are pretty much equal in terms of monthly expenses. Average home payment ( per month) for first time home owner is more than $2300/month. Average daycare cost for infant in my state varies widely by region but minimum $1400/month up to $2800/month. Average loan repayment is about $2800/month.

My husband’s car payment for a very average vehicle purchased 5 years ago is $800/month. Mine is paid off. Our utilities top $1000/month. Our grocery bill is about $1000 a month for two of us.

Neither of us are physicians. I never had any student debt. My husband’s student debt was laughably tiny.


So maybe I’m not the one who is out of touch.

The other thing to consider: Other people’s money always stretches further than your money does.

The "debt from medical school" bit is overplayed IMO. It gets used by the medical community as an excuse for why they charge so much. A new MD making $250K+ should be doing okay, even with $190K of debt. And if they're really worried about the debt, they could work in the IHS or VA and get some of that debt forgiven.

One of my adult offspring is a public defender. He had $0 in undergrad debt but has about $100K in student debt. His debt will be paid off….,unless Trump once again decides to dumb the student loans are repaid for public service thing. Which happened his first term. Not sure of the status now.

So there’s that. Rules under which you begin your intended journey may change through no fault of your own, despite years of holding up your end of the bargain.

 

[bilby]

...unless Trump once again decides to dumb...

While this appears to be a typo, it is nevertheless an excellent summary of the entire problem with any kind of forward planning under the current US administration.

 

[Toni]

...unless Trump once again decides to dumb...

While this appears to be a typo, it is nevertheless an excellent summary of the entire problem with any kind of forward planning under the current US administration.

Corrected above.

Also, approximately 21% of every medical bill goes directly to pay the cost of medtcal billing.

Of course out of your bill for your office business, in addition to your physician, there are nurses and administrative people to pay ( those who book appointments, etc) as well as PAs, NPs, lab techs, phlebotomists, etc. not to mention cleaning staff, security, and of course rent, utilities, malpractice insurance premiums, etc.

Doctors are paid well for providing essential trial services, after years of studying as undergrads and in medical school, residencies, etc. only some of which work receives any kind of salary.

If you want to rag on someone making a bundle on medical care, try looking at insurance companies and the pay of their CEOs, etc.

 

[Emily Lake]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

There's been a steady increase in suicides among black people for the past several years, regardless of where they live. There's been increased media attention to a small number of deaths by hanging of black people in the south. That doesn't mean that there is actually a statistically significant increase in them. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion of racist lynchings simply because the media turned a spotlight on a few and handed you a narrative.

Let's address suicidality across the board. There's no need to instigate racial division and tension in this.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

Family members frequently don't agree with an assessment of suicide. That doesn't make the assessment wrong. Families rarely want to believe that someone they loved killed themselves, and they didn't see it coming. It's a very common reaction.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

Bitch, please. I guarantee I have far more black family members in the south than you do. Stop trying to pretend like you're some noble white person out to save the poor helpless black folks. Set your original sin guilt aside.

 

[Emily Lake]

One of my adult offspring is a public defender. He had $0 in undergrad debt but has about $100K in student debt. His debt will be paid off….,unless Trump once again decides to dumb the student loans are repaid for public service thing. Which happened his first term. Not sure of the status now.

So there’s that. Rules under which you begin your intended journey may change through no fault of your own, despite years of holding up your end of the bargain.

Sure, the rules might change. But if people are taking on debt on the assumption that it will magically be forgiven... well... that's a stupid thing to do. At the end of the day, even general practitioners fresh out of residency make enough money that with even moderate planning can pay them off over the standard repayment period. All it takes is the willingness to have some delayed gratification and to live within your means for a bit. Maybe they can get by on a reasonably priced pre-owned vehicle for a while, and maybe they can manage with a middle class house in a middle class neighborhood for a few years like the rest of us.

Seriously, if I were in a position to just raise my rates so I could have a better life, and people had to pay those rates because if they don't they suffer and die? You'd think that was a horrible and evil bit of exploitation. Why allow doctors to do this?

 

[Emily Lake]

...unless Trump once again decides to dumb...

While this appears to be a typo, it is nevertheless an excellent summary of the entire problem with any kind of forward planning under the current US administration.

Corrected above.

Also, approximately 21% of every medical bill goes directly to pay the cost of medtcal billing.

Of course out of your bill for your office business, in addition to your physician, there are nurses and administrative people to pay ( those who book appointments, etc) as well as PAs, NPs, lab techs, phlebotomists, etc. not to mention cleaning staff, security, and of course rent, utilities, malpractice insurance premiums, etc.

Doctors are paid well for providing essential trial services, after years of studying as undergrads and in medical school, residencies, etc. only some of which work receives any kind of salary.

If you want to rag on someone making a bundle on medical care, try looking at insurance companies and the pay of their CEOs, etc.

The pay for CEOs of major health insurance companies isn't significantly different from the pay for CEOs of major for-profit hospital systems.

The Executive Pay Landscape

Healthcare Sector	Average / Median Compensation	Top Outliers & Notes
Major Health Insurers (Payers)	$16.7M – $20.9M average	Heavily stock-driven. Reaches $60M+ during transition years or peak stock rallies.
For-Profit Hospital Systems	$15M – $25M+ average	Can spike over $43M depending on clinical equity packages and corporate restructuring.
Large Nonprofit Hospital Systems	$4.9M median	The largest systems (e.g., Kaiser, Advocate) pay $12M – $25M+, while prestigious clinics (e.g., Mayo Clinic) sit around $4.8M.

 

[ZiprHead]

Sure, the rules might change. But if people are taking on debt on the assumption that it will magically be forgiven... well... that's a stupid thing to do. At the end of the day, even general practitioners fresh out of residency make enough money that with even moderate planning can pay them off over the standard repayment period. All it takes is the willingness to have some delayed gratification and to live within your means for a bit. Maybe they can get by on a reasonably priced pre-owned vehicle for a while, and maybe they can manage with a middle class house in a middle class neighborhood for a few years like the rest of us.

The problem is that fresh doctors already are carrying the debt of a middle class home. You expect an entry level person to to double their debt.

That's a big problem with the whole school loan program. It was designed for the bankers to make money, not to get skilled people into the workforce. It's a huge drag on our whole economy.

 

[Emily Lake]

Sure, the rules might change. But if people are taking on debt on the assumption that it will magically be forgiven... well... that's a stupid thing to do. At the end of the day, even general practitioners fresh out of residency make enough money that with even moderate planning can pay them off over the standard repayment period. All it takes is the willingness to have some delayed gratification and to live within your means for a bit. Maybe they can get by on a reasonably priced pre-owned vehicle for a while, and maybe they can manage with a middle class house in a middle class neighborhood for a few years like the rest of us.

The problem is that fresh doctors already are carrying the debt of a middle class home. You expect an entry level person to to double their debt.

And they're already earning more than a middle class income.

If you want to be a doctor, that comes with a high cost for the education, and it's offset by a high income. The rest of us left school with a similar or worse debt-to-income ratio. We don't have the luxury of demanding that our employers pay us more so that we can afford a house on a golf course and premium vehicles. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that doctors manage their debt and their money effectively instead of shifting their lifestyle preferences onto sick people.

That's a big problem with the whole school loan program. It was designed for the bankers to make money, not to get skilled people into the workforce. It's a huge drag on our whole economy.

Sure. I don't disagree with that. I just don't think doctors should get special treatment within that context. "Oh no, medical school loans" gets used to distract and hand-wave away the exorbitant costs that we all get charged for medical treatment. It's BS and we should all stop letting it slide.

 

[Toni]

...unless Trump once again decides to dumb...

While this appears to be a typo, it is nevertheless an excellent summary of the entire problem with any kind of forward planning under the current US administration.

Corrected above.

Also, approximately 21% of every medical bill goes directly to pay the cost of medtcal billing.

Of course out of your bill for your office business, in addition to your physician, there are nurses and administrative people to pay ( those who book appointments, etc) as well as PAs, NPs, lab techs, phlebotomists, etc. not to mention cleaning staff, security, and of course rent, utilities, malpractice insurance premiums, etc.

Doctors are paid well for providing essential trial services, after years of studying as undergrads and in medical school, residencies, etc. only some of which work receives any kind of salary.

If you want to rag on someone making a bundle on medical care, try looking at insurance companies and the pay of their CEOs, etc.

The pay for CEOs of major health insurance companies isn't significantly different from the pay for CEOs of major for-profit hospital systems.

The Executive Pay Landscape

Healthcare Sector	Average / Median Compensation	Top Outliers & Notes
Major Health Insurers (Payers)	$16.7M – $20.9M average	Heavily stock-driven. Reaches $60M+ during transition years or peak stock rallies.
For-Profit Hospital Systems	$15M – $25M+ average	Can spike over $43M depending on clinical equity packages and corporate restructuring.
Large Nonprofit Hospital Systems	$4.9M median	The largest systems (e.g., Kaiser, Advocate) pay $12M – $25M+, while prestigious clinics (e.g., Mayo Clinic) sit around $4.8M.

Both are a problem.

 

[ZiprHead]

Sure, the rules might change. But if people are taking on debt on the assumption that it will magically be forgiven... well... that's a stupid thing to do. At the end of the day, even general practitioners fresh out of residency make enough money that with even moderate planning can pay them off over the standard repayment period. All it takes is the willingness to have some delayed gratification and to live within your means for a bit. Maybe they can get by on a reasonably priced pre-owned vehicle for a while, and maybe they can manage with a middle class house in a middle class neighborhood for a few years like the rest of us.

The problem is that fresh doctors already are carrying the debt of a middle class home. You expect an entry level person to to double their debt.

And they're already earning more than a middle class income.

That much more?

If you want to be a doctor, that comes with a high cost for the education, and it's offset by a high income. The rest of us left school with a similar or worse debt-to-income ratio. We don't have the luxury of demanding that our employers pay us more so that we can afford a house on a golf course and premium vehicles. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that doctors manage their debt and their money effectively instead of shifting their lifestyle preferences onto sick people.

Strawman. Who is asking them to?

That's a big problem with the whole school loan program. It was designed for the bankers to make money, not to get skilled people into the workforce. It's a huge drag on our whole economy.

Sure. I don't disagree with that. I just don't think doctors should get special treatment within that context. "Oh no, medical school loans" gets used to distract and hand-wave away the exorbitant costs that we all get charged for medical treatment. It's BS and we should all stop letting it slide.

Again, who is asking for special treatment?

You agree the loan program sucks. So that is the issue that should be addressed.

Federal student loan interest rates for the 2026–2027 school year are 6.52% for undergraduate loans, 8.07% for graduate unsubsidized loans, and 9.07% for PLUS loans. [1]

Current Federal Rates (2026–2027)
Federal loan rates are fixed for the life of the loan and apply to disbursements made between July 1, 2026, and June 30, 2027. [1, 2]

• <> Federal Loan Breakdown
  • Undergraduate (Subsidized/Unsubsidized): 6.52%
  • Graduate Unsubsidized: 8.07%
  • Parent & Graduate PLUS: 9.07% [1]

Private Student Loan & Refinance Rates
Private rates vary by lender and depend heavily on your credit score and whether you have a co-signer. [1, 2]

• <> Market Ranges
  • Private Fixed APR: ~1.94% to 17.99%
  • Private Variable APR: ~3.75% to 17.99%
  • Refinancing APR: ~3.94% to 13.99% [1, 2]

Key Savings & Updates

• Auto-Pay Discount: Enrolling in automatic debit can reduce your federal interest rate by 0.25% or up to 1% depending on specific program rules and enrollment timelines. [1, 2]
• Borrowing Strategy: Always max out federal student loans before looking into private alternatives due to federal income-driven repayment and forgiveness protections.

Also the loans must be repaid in ten years, not the 30 years most people use to purchase a house. That makes these loan payments quite high.

 

[Toni]

One of my adult offspring is a public defender. He had $0 in undergrad debt but has about $100K in student debt. His debt will be paid off….,unless Trump once again decides to dumb the student loans are repaid for public service thing. Which happened his first term. Not sure of the status now.

So there’s that. Rules under which you begin your intended journey may change through no fault of your own, despite years of holding up your end of the bargain.

Sure, the rules might change. But if people are taking on debt on the assumption that it will magically be forgiven... well... that's a stupid thing to do. At the end of the day, even general practitioners fresh out of residency make enough money that with even moderate planning can pay them off over the standard repayment period. All it takes is the willingness to have some delayed gratification and to live within your means for a bit. Maybe they can get by on a reasonably priced pre-owned vehicle for a while, and maybe they can manage with a middle class house in a middle class neighborhood for a few years like the rest of us.

Seriously, if I were in a position to just raise my rates so I could have a better life, and people had to pay those rates because if they don't they suffer and die? You'd think that was a horrible and evil bit of exploitation. Why allow doctors to do this?

People are t taking on debt that they delusional believe will magically disappear. They are taking on debt to fund an education they hope will provide them with an interesting and fulfilling career. They are doing so, in some cases, with the intention of working in underserved communities where the need is great under the promise of X number of years service will give them forgiveness of their medical ( or law) school debt. Our government made that promise. That is: you and I made that promise.

Why don’t persist in ignoring that within those doctor’s fees are included the costs of running a medical practice? Who do you think pays for the wages of the nurses and techs and clerical workers and claims filers and cleaners as well as the costs or renting or owning a building/office space, complete with utilities and maintenance costs? Where do you suppose the money comes from to pay for the computers and medical instruments, supplies, machinery? Of course there is property insurance and malpractice insurance and medical insurance fur all of those workers plus taxes and the employer’s portion of taxes.

Oh yeah: magic.

 

[Toni]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

There's been a steady increase in suicides among black people for the past several years, regardless of where they live. There's been increased media attention to a small number of deaths by hanging of black people in the south. That doesn't mean that there is actually a statistically significant increase in them. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion of racist lynchings simply because the media turned a spotlight on a few and handed you a narrative.

Let's address suicidality across the board. There's no need to instigate racial division and tension in this.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

Family members frequently don't agree with an assessment of suicide. That doesn't make the assessment wrong. Families rarely want to believe that someone they loved killed themselves, and they didn't see it coming. It's a very common reaction.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

Bitch, please. I guarantee I have far more black family members in the south than you do. Stop trying to pretend like you're some noble white person out to save the poor helpless black folks. Set your original sin guilt aside.

Who the fuck do you really think you are to speak to me or any other person in this forum in such a manner?

Do you think I am not aware of the fact that many surviving family members don’t believe it was suicide when it was?

Why do you suppose Ms I have black relatives in the south so I have the pulse of black people in the south that there is an increase in black suicides in the last few years?

Why would that be?

 

[Emily Lake]

...unless Trump once again decides to dumb...

While this appears to be a typo, it is nevertheless an excellent summary of the entire problem with any kind of forward planning under the current US administration.

Corrected above.

Also, approximately 21% of every medical bill goes directly to pay the cost of medtcal billing.

Of course out of your bill for your office business, in addition to your physician, there are nurses and administrative people to pay ( those who book appointments, etc) as well as PAs, NPs, lab techs, phlebotomists, etc. not to mention cleaning staff, security, and of course rent, utilities, malpractice insurance premiums, etc.

Doctors are paid well for providing essential trial services, after years of studying as undergrads and in medical school, residencies, etc. only some of which work receives any kind of salary.

If you want to rag on someone making a bundle on medical care, try looking at insurance companies and the pay of their CEOs, etc.

The pay for CEOs of major health insurance companies isn't significantly different from the pay for CEOs of major for-profit hospital systems.

The Executive Pay Landscape

Healthcare Sector	Average / Median Compensation	Top Outliers & Notes
Major Health Insurers (Payers)	$16.7M – $20.9M average	Heavily stock-driven. Reaches $60M+ during transition years or peak stock rallies.
For-Profit Hospital Systems	$15M – $25M+ average	Can spike over $43M depending on clinical equity packages and corporate restructuring.
Large Nonprofit Hospital Systems	$4.9M median	The largest systems (e.g., Kaiser, Advocate) pay $12M – $25M+, while prestigious clinics (e.g., Mayo Clinic) sit around $4.8M.

Both are a problem.

I agree. I'm only asking that you don't excuse the same behavior when it's coming from the medical community. Hold them to the same standards, because they're a material part of the problem as well.

 

[Emily Lake]

One of my adult offspring is a public defender. He had $0 in undergrad debt but has about $100K in student debt. His debt will be paid off….,unless Trump once again decides to dumb the student loans are repaid for public service thing. Which happened his first term. Not sure of the status now.

So there’s that. Rules under which you begin your intended journey may change through no fault of your own, despite years of holding up your end of the bargain.

Sure, the rules might change. But if people are taking on debt on the assumption that it will magically be forgiven... well... that's a stupid thing to do. At the end of the day, even general practitioners fresh out of residency make enough money that with even moderate planning can pay them off over the standard repayment period. All it takes is the willingness to have some delayed gratification and to live within your means for a bit. Maybe they can get by on a reasonably priced pre-owned vehicle for a while, and maybe they can manage with a middle class house in a middle class neighborhood for a few years like the rest of us.

Seriously, if I were in a position to just raise my rates so I could have a better life, and people had to pay those rates because if they don't they suffer and die? You'd think that was a horrible and evil bit of exploitation. Why allow doctors to do this?

People are t taking on debt that they delusional believe will magically disappear. They are taking on debt to fund an education they hope will provide them with an interesting and fulfilling career. They are doing so, in some cases, with the intention of working in underserved communities where the need is great under the promise of X number of years service will give them forgiveness of their medical ( or law) school debt. Our government made that promise. That is: you and I made that promise.

No government policy is a promise. Tax laws change every year. Anyone building their entire future on the assumption that the government will be constant is a fool.

Why don’t persist in ignoring that within those doctor’s fees are included the costs of running a medical practice? Who do you think pays for the wages of the nurses and techs and clerical workers and claims filers and cleaners as well as the costs or renting or owning a building/office space, complete with utilities and maintenance costs? Where do you suppose the money comes from to pay for the computers and medical instruments, supplies, machinery? Of course there is property insurance and malpractice insurance and medical insurance fur all of those workers plus taxes and the employer’s portion of taxes.

Oh yeah: magic.

Yes, Toni, I know that all those other costs are part of it. No shit. This isn't a mystery.

On the other hand... why do you persist in ignoring the overall lifestyle and incomes of doctors while lamenting the debt? They don't have to choose to have fancy houses and cars and vacations and all the rest. They don't have to choose to make 3 to 4 times as much as their RNs, and 5 to 6 times as much as their other workers.

All of those costs exist - yes, absolutely. But do you think those costs somehow eradicate the lifestyles of most doctors? Seriously, they're not "scraping by". Stop giving doctors a free pass to exploit sick people.

 

[Emily Lake]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

There's been a steady increase in suicides among black people for the past several years, regardless of where they live. There's been increased media attention to a small number of deaths by hanging of black people in the south. That doesn't mean that there is actually a statistically significant increase in them. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion of racist lynchings simply because the media turned a spotlight on a few and handed you a narrative.

Let's address suicidality across the board. There's no need to instigate racial division and tension in this.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

Family members frequently don't agree with an assessment of suicide. That doesn't make the assessment wrong. Families rarely want to believe that someone they loved killed themselves, and they didn't see it coming. It's a very common reaction.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

Bitch, please. I guarantee I have far more black family members in the south than you do. Stop trying to pretend like you're some noble white person out to save the poor helpless black folks. Set your original sin guilt aside.

Who the fuck do you really think you are to speak to me or any other person in this forum in such a manner?

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

 

[Derec]

I just did a google search of my state for average wages for a new MD in family practice and the average is between $250-280K/year. Nothing to sneeze at

"Nothing to sneeze at" is quite an understatement. Not sure what state you live in, but US-wide, that would put them in the 95th percentile of incomes. And that's just physicians fresh out of residency - they can make more as they progress in their careers.

but there is a pretty big gap between having $70K in student t loans and the $197K in average student debt owed by freshly qualified MDs.

But the high income makes it quite manageable. I did a quick amortization calculation. If you want to pay off a $200k student loan at 7% interest over 10 years, your payment is $2322 per month. High, but not a terribly big chunk of the $250k salary. I do not see why taxpayers, most of whom make far less, should pay for these 5%ers' student loans, like for example AOC wants.

not many people commit suicide by hanging themselves from trees.

Does not have to be common for it to still occur with some regularity. We are a big country: ~330M people, perhaps some ~40M of them black. Even if the odds of a black person hanging themselves from a tree was as low as 1:10M per year, you'd still expect a few people to do it every year.

 

[laughing dog]

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

My mother always told me that other people's misbehavior was not an excuse for mine. I don't always abide by her admonition, but I try to live by it.

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.