Islam just can't stand images of Mohammed

[untermensche]

Art that demeans religious icons have been a staple of modern art for decades now. Many win awards such as the Piss Christ and the Madonna painting that includes elephant dung. Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum?

Were the cartoons required to be demeaning?

Christians shoot abortion doctors. In the not too distant past they burnt witches alive.

Many people know that Muslims have a particular sensitivity to drawings of Mohammed.

The vast majority aren't going to do anything, but a tiny minority may.

Just like somebody may or may not get trampled after you yell fire.

 

[J842P]

Art that demeans religious icons have been a staple of modern art for decades now. Many win awards such as the Piss Christ and the Madonna painting that includes elephant dung. Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum?

Were the cartoons required to be demeaning?

Christians shoot abortion doctors. In the not too distant past they burnt witches alive.

Many people know that Muslims have a particular sensitivity to drawings of Mohammed.

The vast majority aren't going to do anything, but a tiny minority may.

Just like somebody may or may not get trampled after you yell fire.

Demeaning Islam is a perfectly valid purpose.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Art that demeans religious icons have been a staple of modern art for decades now. Many win awards such as the Piss Christ and the Madonna painting that includes elephant dung. Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum?

I think it's less that the icons of Islam are sacred and respected than it is that the people doing the disrespecting are ... assholes. They're not doing it to make some artistic point, they're doing it to be dicks.

While I certainly think that this group of morons' right to be offensive is more important than the other group of morons' right not to get offended and I fully support Voltaire's statement of "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I will defend unto death your right to say it", I really just don't want to be on the same side as these dumb-asses.

They're defending free speech in the same way that a bully is giving the skinny asthmatic kid a valuable life lesson in why punching himself in the face is not a good idea and that's why he should stop doing it. I like defending free speech, but I don't like defending these people.

 

[untermensche]

Demeaning Islam is a perfectly valid purpose.

What purpose does it serve?

I don't believe the claims of Muslims.

Making fun of the claims adds nothing.

 

[skepticalbip]

Art that demeans religious icons have been a staple of modern art for decades now. Many win awards such as the Piss Christ and the Madonna painting that includes elephant dung. Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum?

Were the cartoons required to be demeaning?

That certainly seemed to be your impression.

Christians shoot abortion doctors. In the not too distant past they burnt witches alive.

WTF
And people were executed for not bowing to nobility hundreds or years ago too.

Many people know that Muslims have a particular sensitivity to drawings of Mohammed.

Are you suggesting that Christians don't have particular reverence for the crucifix and the Madonna?

The vast majority aren't going to do anything, but a tiny minority may.

Did you see anything in my post that suggested otherwise?

Just like somebody may or may not get trampled after you yell fire.

Again WTF?

 

[Ford]

Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum?

I can't speak for anyone else on the forum, but I personally don't hold "icons of Islam" to be sacred or respected.

I also don't think that the violent reaction to depictions of their prophet are in any way justified.

But this "cartoon contest" was just stupid. I mean, if I go into a biker bar, walk up to the leader of the local Hell's Angels chapter and call his mother a whore, am I exercising my right to free speech? Absolutely. If he hits me with a tire iron because of it, is he guilty of assault? Of course. Yet walking into a biker bar and deliberately provoking a person who might become violent is - 1st Amendment aside - idiotic.


By the way, if I were to do that, and earned a bunch of stitches in the process, it still doesn't mean everyone who rides a motorcycle is a violent sociopath.

 

[J842P]

Making fun of the claims adds nothing.

Yes, it does. Blasphemy qua blasphemy is valuable.

 

[untermensche]

Making fun of the claims adds nothing.

Yes, it does. Blasphemy qua blasphemy is valuable.

What value is added to my absolute unbelief?

 

[skepticalbip]

Art that demeans religious icons have been a staple of modern art for decades now. Many win awards such as the Piss Christ and the Madonna painting that includes elephant dung. Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum?

I think it's less that the icons of Islam are sacred and respected than it is that the people doing the disrespecting are ... assholes. They're not doing it to make some artistic point, they're doing it to be dicks.

While I certainly think that this group of morons' right to be offensive is more important than the other group of morons' right not to get offended and I fully support Voltaire's statement of "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I will defend unto death your right to say it", I really just don't want to be on the same side as these dumb-asses.

They're defending free speech in the same way that a bully is giving the skinny asthmatic kid a valuable life lesson in why punching himself in the face is not a good idea and that's why he should stop doing it. I like defending free speech, but I don't like defending these people.

I absolutely agree. They are assholes. My only problem is the double standard by many on this forum - the ones who see nothing wrong with those assholes demeaning religious icons of one religion and engage in visceral condemnation of that religion themselves then criticize anyone who does anything that could upset the believers of another religion, Islam.

Islam has earned the right to be subjected to the same criticism, condemnation, ridicule, and abuse as Christianity and/or Judaism.

 

[Artemus]

But this "cartoon contest" was just stupid. I mean, if I go into a biker bar, walk up to the leader of the local Hell's Angels chapter and call his mother a whore, am I exercising my right to free speech? Absolutely. If he hits me with a tire iron because of it, is he guilty of assault? Of course. Yet walking into a biker bar and deliberately provoking a person who might become violent is - 1st Amendment aside - idiotic.

Not the same thing. They did not go into a mosque and start drawing. They went to a private location where anyone who didn't want to see it didn't have to. The blame lies solely with the two who opened fire. If we limit ourselves only to activities that won't offend some sort of fanatic out there, we cannot do much of anything.

 

[J842P]

Yes, it does. Blasphemy qua blasphemy is valuable.

What value is added to my absolute unbelief?

I'll take your word for it that nothing of value is added to your unbelief. Not sure exactly what that even means. Regardless, that wasn't my claim.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think it's less that the icons of Islam are sacred and respected than it is that the people doing the disrespecting are ... assholes. They're not doing it to make some artistic point, they're doing it to be dicks.

While I certainly think that this group of morons' right to be offensive is more important than the other group of morons' right not to get offended and I fully support Voltaire's statement of "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I will defend unto death your right to say it", I really just don't want to be on the same side as these dumb-asses.

They're defending free speech in the same way that a bully is giving the skinny asthmatic kid a valuable life lesson in why punching himself in the face is not a good idea and that's why he should stop doing it. I like defending free speech, but I don't like defending these people.

I absolutely agree. They are assholes. My only problem is the double standard by many on this forum - the ones who see nothing wrong with those assholes demeaning religious icons of one religion and engage in visceral condemnation of that religion themselves then criticize anyone who does anything that would upset the believers of another religion, Islam.

Ya, it's pretty stupid. However, it's like if you're in the middle of New York and you see someone run into the street and save a blind child from being run over by a bus. You're really impressed by this until you get a closer look and you see that the guy who saved the kid was Tom Brady. And you know ... fuck Tom Brady. You're a New Yorker and you do not cheer for Tom Brady. There's a part of you that wanted the kid to die just so Tom Brady doesn't get any credit for having done something good. Because fuck that guy.

Now, you don't actually want blind children to get run over by buses but, at the same time, you are uncomfortable being in a position where you're applauding Tom Brady. You want to find a way to rationalize away offering any credit or support for what Tom Brady has done. Given that what Tom Brady did was to save a blind kid from getting run over by a bus, whatever it is that you come up with is going to end up being pretty fucking stupid. It will, however, leave you in a position where you're not supporting Tom Brady. Because fuck that guy. And then that asshole who intercepted the ball in the end zone during the Superbowl can go and fuck himself too.

Fucking Tom Brady

It's the same as managing to find a way to not support what these dumb-asses are doing.

 

[J842P]

I think it's less that the icons of Islam are sacred and respected than it is that the people doing the disrespecting are ... assholes. They're not doing it to make some artistic point, they're doing it to be dicks.

While I certainly think that this group of morons' right to be offensive is more important than the other group of morons' right not to get offended and I fully support Voltaire's statement of "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I will defend unto death your right to say it", I really just don't want to be on the same side as these dumb-asses.

They're defending free speech in the same way that a bully is giving the skinny asthmatic kid a valuable life lesson in why punching himself in the face is not a good idea and that's why he should stop doing it. I like defending free speech, but I don't like defending these people.

I absolutely agree. They are assholes. My only problem is the double standard by many on this forum - the ones who see nothing wrong with those assholes demeaning religious icons of one religion and engage in visceral condemnation of that religion themselves then criticize anyone who does anything that could upset the believers of another religion, Islam.

Yeah, the double-standard is striking. The problem is that people struggle to get past the in-group out-group social dynamic. They see Islam is usually the target of demeaning insults by their political opponents, in this case right-wingers, and in a clear display of partisanship before principles they condemn them for something that they wouldn't condemn if the target were Christianity.

 

[J842P]

But this "cartoon contest" was just stupid. I mean, if I go into a biker bar, walk up to the leader of the local Hell's Angels chapter and call his mother a whore, am I exercising my right to free speech? Absolutely. If he hits me with a tire iron because of it, is he guilty of assault? Of course. Yet walking into a biker bar and deliberately provoking a person who might become violent is - 1st Amendment aside - idiotic.

Not the same thing. They did not go into a mosque and start drawing. They went to a private location where anyone who didn't want to see it didn't have to. The blame lies solely with the two who opened fire. If we limit ourselves only to activities that won't offend some sort of fanatic out there, we cannot do much of anything.

Right. I wouldn't support allowing people to enter places of worship (or any private space) of believers and to start insulting them. That is harassment. Drawing a cartoon is not harassment. It is not the same thing at all. Only those who are blinded by partisanship can't tell the difference in this case, but it is clear.

 

[skepticalbip]

I absolutely agree. They are assholes. My only problem is the double standard by many on this forum - the ones who see nothing wrong with those assholes demeaning religious icons of one religion and engage in visceral condemnation of that religion themselves then criticize anyone who does anything that would upset the believers of another religion, Islam.

Ya, it's pretty stupid. However, it's like if you're in the middle of New York and you see someone run into the street and save a blind child from being run over by a bus. You're really impressed by this until you get a closer look and you see that the guy who saved the kid was Tom Brady. And you know ... fuck Tom Brady. You're a New Yorker and you do not cheer for Tom Brady. There's a part of you that wanted the kid to die just so Tom Brady doesn't get any credit for having done something good. Because fuck that guy.

Now, you don't actually want blind children to get run over by buses but, at the same time, you are uncomfortable being in a position where you're applauding Tom Brady. You want to find a way to rationalize away offering any credit or support for what Tom Brady has done. Given that what Tom Brady did was to save a blind kid from getting run over by a bus, whatever it is that you come up with is going to end up being pretty fucking stupid. It will, however, leave you in a position where you're not supporting Tom Brady. Because fuck that guy. And then that asshole who intercepted the ball in the end zone during the Superbowl can go and fuck himself too.

Fucking Tom Brady

It's the same as managing to find a way to not support what these dumb-asses are doing.

Well put. But, personally, I would have to give Tom Brady a pat on the back though I may not want anyone to see me do it.

 

[dismal]

Art that demeans religious icons have been a staple of modern art for decades now. Many win awards such as the Piss Christ and the Madonna painting that includes elephant dung. Why is it that icons of Islam are sacred and to be respected on this forum? Certainly Christians are just as upset as Muslims are by such art. People just don't expect Christians to resort to killing people over it.

Lest we forget the controversy over piss Christ was not over whether to kill the author but that the government was funding it. Which the left at the time seemed to think was good.

It's quite a shift to go from arguing art that offends a religious group should be subsidized by the government to engaging in sympathy with people who murder cartoonists.

 

[Ford]

But this "cartoon contest" was just stupid. I mean, if I go into a biker bar, walk up to the leader of the local Hell's Angels chapter and call his mother a whore, am I exercising my right to free speech? Absolutely. If he hits me with a tire iron because of it, is he guilty of assault? Of course. Yet walking into a biker bar and deliberately provoking a person who might become violent is - 1st Amendment aside - idiotic.

Not the same thing. They did not go into a mosque and start drawing. They went to a private location where anyone who didn't want to see it didn't have to.

Right. And they didn't try to publicize it at all. Just had the contest at a private space, tried really hard to keep it to themselves, and when someone found out that the contest was happening they went out of their way to explain that it was not meant to offend, provoke, or otherwise cause a disturbance.





The motivations of these people are so transparent even the Clinton Foundation's accountants couldn't miss it.

 

[dismal]

Not the same thing. They did not go into a mosque and start drawing. They went to a private location where anyone who didn't want to see it didn't have to.

Right. And they didn't try to publicize it at all. Just had the contest at a private space, tried really hard to keep it to themselves, and when someone found out that the contest was happening they went out of their way to explain that it was not meant to offend, provoke, or otherwise cause a disturbance.





The motivations of these people are so transparent even the Clinton Foundation's accountants couldn't miss it.

It matters not a fuck what there motives were. What twisted idea leads you to think it does?

 

[skepticalbip]

Not the same thing. They did not go into a mosque and start drawing. They went to a private location where anyone who didn't want to see it didn't have to.

Right. And they didn't try to publicize it at all. Just had the contest at a private space, tried really hard to keep it to themselves, and when someone found out that the contest was happening they went out of their way to explain that it was not meant to offend, provoke, or otherwise cause a disturbance.





The motivations of these people are so transparent even the Clinton Foundation's accountants couldn't miss it.

You seem to have completely missed a major movement in modern art of the last several decades. This movement's intent is to shock and to offend existing beliefs, values, and mores. And, as dismal has pointed out, much of it is funded by tax money through the National Endowment for the Arts.

 

[J842P]

Not the same thing. They did not go into a mosque and start drawing. They went to a private location where anyone who didn't want to see it didn't have to.

Right. And they didn't try to publicize it at all. Just had the contest at a private space, tried really hard to keep it to themselves, and when someone found out that the contest was happening they went out of their way to explain that it was not meant to offend, provoke, or otherwise cause a disturbance.





The motivations of these people are so transparent even the Clinton Foundation's accountants couldn't miss it.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what difference that makes.