most dangerous dog breeds, least dangerous dog breeds, and why

[Rhea]

and you think others in the situation of having feared when a strange German shepherd had their teeth clamped on them "foolish" because you didn't feel afraid when a large strange dog had their teeth clamped on you?

frankly I find it hard to believe you really think anyone to be a fool for fearing in such a situation.

Sounds to me like the dog was indeed well trained enough to deal with an intruder without causing physical harm. I just find it bewildering the attitude that there's something strange about being afraid when a large dog has their teeth clamped upon you as if everyone should understand the nuances of how guard dogs should react in a given situation and how they should also start thinking rationally about the fact the the animal with their teeth clamped on them hasn't drawn blood.

I think you should reread what I wrote in the context of the entire post. My explicit comment about being a fool was predicated on the previous comments of "A person could very well know whether their life was in imminent danger or not, depending on how the dog is acting. If the dog is not growling nor trying to throw you to the ground, you are not in immiment danger. If the jaws are firm but not breaking the skin, one is not in danger of one's life. " by me and followed by "A reasonable person would be in full-on fight-or-flight mode when being restrained by an unknown dog." In my view, it is foolish to immediately be "in full flight or fight mode" without regard to the actual situation because it might exacerbate the situation.

Curious why you think it's so universal and obvious to be able to judge the mood of a dog that is a stranger to you? I find this to be very unlikely for a large segment of the population and I do not think they are idiots or fools.

 

[Rhea]

Not breaking skin is a sign of an extremely well trained dog who was in control of her emotions and the situation. Clearly, a dog as large as a German Shepherd is quite capable of doing very serious harm or even killing a human. A less well trained dog could have easily inadvertently harmed the human. A poorly trained dog could have become excited and unpredictable and actually attacked and harmed the man.

So bear in mind that just before I was bitten quite deeply by a "very well trained dog," its owner was shouting while it was running toward me on my bike, "She's friendly, she doesn't bite!"

So the dog owner who presumably knows all about dog psychology felt I had no reason to be in a worried state. And me, the person who presumably is "an idiot" about dog psychology was thinking, "that thing's going to attack me!"

And then it grabbed my thigh in its teeth and pulled off flesh.

Later, everyone (but me) was thinking, oh, she didn't mean, it, she was just startled, it's all okay. No, the dog was not put down, because everyone knew it was "just" bad luck.

Yes, I know there are nasty dogs. We have no leash law in our town and I jog. Oh, yes, I know about them. And every one has an owner who thinks I'm an idiot for not stopping my jog and wanting to pet and stroke and love on their precious sweetie. Because that's how you deal with dogs, right? They don't want you to run by ignoring them, they just want a little loving! If I just get to know them, they'll be so nice! If I just rub their little darling heads and say lovie lovie lovie!

You like to jog in areas where dogs are unleashed.

I like to run on my own street in my own neighborhood - if that's okay with the doggie owners?

OK, then you need to know how to do it safely.

So, I was thinking that doggie owners maybe need to be less blase' about their animals? But, yeah, an alternative is that it's my problem.

You need to realize that running/jogging triggers a prey drive in dogs and most will want to run after you.

So, I was thinking that doggie owners maybe need to realize this about their animals? But, yeah, an alternative is that it's my problem.

Some, those who are accustomed to running with their owners may just want to run by your side.

My point all along has been that the doggie owners perhaps need to take responsibility for the fact that not all humans have any desire for this.

But untrained dogs will simply be driven to want to chase after you. That's simply a fact.

Interestingly, I had been discussing how I think doggie owners should take the lead role in this - sort of as an attitude kinda thing.

Stopping is usually the correct thing to do, even if it is inconvenient and scary.

So see how this went? The "correct thing to do" is for dog owners to inconvenience and scare their neighbors. I had been discussing an alternative.

I would not suggest you reach out to pet any strange dog, ever.

Not a risk.

I would call out to see if you can get the owner to come and leash the dog.

Joking? Not sure what you mean by this.
Although one wonders, why on earth would it be the jogger's job to attend to this, assuming there was an owner nearby to be called and assuming they had a leash and felt like using it?

See, it's my experience that owner says, "oh, she won't bite, she just wants to say hi."

Interestingly, I don't fucking want to say hi to the dog.

If the owner tried to tell you how harmless their dog was, I would simply calmly remind the owner that a dog chasing someone is a dangerous situation. Because it is.

Joking?
Look how that's gone in this thread. I'm being serious here.
Look how "hey, that's a dangerous situation!" has gone. You can review it for yourself.

To be honest, I'd pick a different area to jog because being chased by dogs is annoying, at best and usually dangerous. Even the dog doesn't nip or bite, it can trip you and result in a serious injury to you. That is not a good thing.

Serious suggestion? Drive completely out of town to jog because dog owners have no responsibility to allow safe passage on my own street?

You may think I am an idiot but consider this: I've had several strange dogs go after me in very aggressive ways: head low, snarling, growling, lunging. I've never been bitten. I've never struck the dog. I've never swatted at the dog and only once has the owner ever come to call the dog off (and then apologize. I was a kid on my bike with my little sister. Neither of us was hurt.) You might consider that I've had better luck in avoiding bites than you have because maybe I know something about dogs. This is not magic. It's skill and knowledge. It's also not infallible. There was some luck involved but the best bit of luck is that I had a father who taught me how to behave around animals.

I do wonder what you know about dogs that would have saved me from getting bitten as I rode my bike past my neighbor's house?
What was it that I did wrong, Toni? That my lack of doggie knowledge brought on myself?

And if the employee doesn't want to be touched by the dog, he gets it clamped on his side and everyone thinks this is normal and harmless and it IS NOT. It is freaky and dangerous.

There was nothing freaky about it. I realize it freaks you out but that doesn't mean that it was freaky

Of course. Nothing to see here, folks.

Live bait freaks out my husband but leeches are not freaky. Creepy to some people but really not freaky.

That's your analogy? A dog's jaw on your torso versus handling live bait?
See, I don't know if you're intending this, but this here is where people start to view doggie apologists as a little bit narrow-sighted on the issue. They kind of dismiss the worries of others and just carry on not really concerned about their effect on others. And the rest of us are like, WTF!? If I went to your grandmother's house and scared her every day, I'd be a monster, right? But to the doggie owners, it's just a regular laugh-riot.

I realize that ford says his situation did INDEED include a guy who was actually a dog-guy and they all thought it was funny later. But I'm coming from the point of view that they were all just lucky that the employee was also a dog guy, and it could have gone very badly. And that it has, in fact, gone badly for others. Whose stories are dismissed as the fault of the victim (i.e. if I knew as much about dogs as you, I would never have gotten bitten.)

However, it was dangerous. The guy didn't know the dog. The dog could have been a dangerous dog. The guy could have done more stupid stuff and actually gotten hurt.

Well, that's certainly not a freaky situation in a workplace!

Where do you get this idea that it is common? You've told us all dogs are different. So tell us, what EXACTLY should that employee have done to GUARANTEE a lovely outcome with the sweet charming well behaved doggie who was nudging at him?

Please let us know so we won't be idiots any more.

A dog who is nudging at you wants something.

Oh? Now remember the conversation went that only an idiot does not know this, and it is common sense. Some of us asked, what on earth makes you think people would know this who are not doggie people? Sharks nudge, and they want something. They want to find out if you're good to eat.

That's the part that I find most bizarre. This insistence that EVERYONE must learn to love dogs, so that dog owners do not have to exercise the responsibility of owning dogs around people who do not wish to be doggie friends.

In a low calm voice, speak to the dog: Ask what it wants.

So that the owner can have a dog without keeping it away from people who do not care what it wants?

Offer a hand to sniff if it seems safe.

Oh, I love doing that. I can feel my eyes starting to itch already. I love this advice.
Hey, did I mention that I DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH YOUR DOG? Why do I have to touch your dog?
I don't understand this, I really don't. If you can't keep your dog off of me, don't own it.

Usually, with a trained dog,

How are we knowing if it's a trained doggie again?

if you ask what it wants, it will indicate what it wants. In this case, my guess--and it is only a guess--is that it would have led the guy to the boss in order for the boss to ok the guy. Without the mouth part.

What a thoroughly intuitive scenario! I always assume dogs that I have never seen before want to take me with them to meet a person.

If it seems unsafe to offer your hand to the dog to sniff, then call out to see if other humans are near. This was a shop, apparently not a large one. The boss was nearby.

Or, the dog owner could maintain control of their dog?

The other thing that one could do if the above doesn't seem practical or safe: In a firm low register voice, tell the dog to "Git" and point away, arm extended, in a firm way.

You know what's interesting about this advice? When I do it and the owner _is_ nearby? They never seem to take that as a signal that they should come and control their dog. Instead it is always (and I mean always, it's amazing!) "Oh, she just wants to say hi!" Like I just didn't say "git" for a reason.

If that seems unsafe,then the best thing to do is to simply calmly stay still and wait. Either help will come or the dog will leave.

Ummm, no, this does not work. There is not always a person nearby and there is not always a calming sense that comes over fido.
I would be interested in watching you try this and see how it works - remember the goal is to not touch the dog, although it is hard to get dog owners to understand this goal. They just don't seem to care and instead like to say it is my fault, or I should be ashamed for not wanting to touch their dog or something.

 

[Nexus]

I've stated multiple times that it is foolish and ineffective to swat at a large, strange dog.

Its also foolish to own a large dog and leave it unsupervised in places where other people have a right to be. Unlike some of the others arguing against your position I love dogs. I've also had a few attempt to attack me while rollerblading. Fortunately the dogs that chased after me immediately disengaged once I maneuvered to counter attack them and their instincts correctly surmised I wasn't prey.

 

[Toni]

So bear in mind that just before I was bitten quite deeply by a "very well trained dog," its owner was shouting while it was running toward me on my bike, "She's friendly, she doesn't bite!"

So the dog owner who presumably knows all about dog psychology felt I had no reason to be in a worried state. And me, the person who presumably is "an idiot" about dog psychology was thinking, "that thing's going to attack me!"

And then it grabbed my thigh in its teeth and pulled off flesh.

Later, everyone (but me) was thinking, oh, she didn't mean, it, she was just startled, it's all okay. No, the dog was not put down, because everyone knew it was "just" bad luck.

Yes, I know there are nasty dogs. We have no leash law in our town and I jog. Oh, yes, I know about them. And every one has an owner who thinks I'm an idiot for not stopping my jog and wanting to pet and stroke and love on their precious sweetie. Because that's how you deal with dogs, right? They don't want you to run by ignoring them, they just want a little loving! If I just get to know them, they'll be so nice! If I just rub their little darling heads and say lovie lovie lovie!

You like to jog in areas where dogs are unleashed.

I like to run on my own street in my own neighborhood - if that's okay with the doggie owners?

OK, then you need to know how to do it safely.

So, I was thinking that doggie owners maybe need to be less blase' about their animals? But, yeah, an alternative is that it's my problem.

You need to realize that running/jogging triggers a prey drive in dogs and most will want to run after you.

So, I was thinking that doggie owners maybe need to realize this about their animals? But, yeah, an alternative is that it's my problem.

Some, those who are accustomed to running with their owners may just want to run by your side.

My point all along has been that the doggie owners perhaps need to take responsibility for the fact that not all humans have any desire for this.

But untrained dogs will simply be driven to want to chase after you. That's simply a fact.

Interestingly, I had been discussing how I think doggie owners should take the lead role in this - sort of as an attitude kinda thing.

Stopping is usually the correct thing to do, even if it is inconvenient and scary.

So see how this went? The "correct thing to do" is for dog owners to inconvenience and scare their neighbors. I had been discussing an alternative.

I would not suggest you reach out to pet any strange dog, ever.

Not a risk.

I would call out to see if you can get the owner to come and leash the dog.

Joking? Not sure what you mean by this.
Although one wonders, why on earth would it be the jogger's job to attend to this, assuming there was an owner nearby to be called and assuming they had a leash and felt like using it?

See, it's my experience that owner says, "oh, she won't bite, she just wants to say hi."

Interestingly, I don't fucking want to say hi to the dog.

If the owner tried to tell you how harmless their dog was, I would simply calmly remind the owner that a dog chasing someone is a dangerous situation. Because it is.

Joking?
Look how that's gone in this thread. I'm being serious here.
Look how "hey, that's a dangerous situation!" has gone. You can review it for yourself.

To be honest, I'd pick a different area to jog because being chased by dogs is annoying, at best and usually dangerous. Even the dog doesn't nip or bite, it can trip you and result in a serious injury to you. That is not a good thing.

Serious suggestion? Drive completely out of town to jog because dog owners have no responsibility to allow safe passage on my own street?

You may think I am an idiot but consider this: I've had several strange dogs go after me in very aggressive ways: head low, snarling, growling, lunging. I've never been bitten. I've never struck the dog. I've never swatted at the dog and only once has the owner ever come to call the dog off (and then apologize. I was a kid on my bike with my little sister. Neither of us was hurt.) You might consider that I've had better luck in avoiding bites than you have because maybe I know something about dogs. This is not magic. It's skill and knowledge. It's also not infallible. There was some luck involved but the best bit of luck is that I had a father who taught me how to behave around animals.

I do wonder what you know about dogs that would have saved me from getting bitten as I rode my bike past my neighbor's house?
What was it that I did wrong, Toni? That my lack of doggie knowledge brought on myself?

And if the employee doesn't want to be touched by the dog, he gets it clamped on his side and everyone thinks this is normal and harmless and it IS NOT. It is freaky and dangerous.

There was nothing freaky about it. I realize it freaks you out but that doesn't mean that it was freaky

Of course. Nothing to see here, folks.

Live bait freaks out my husband but leeches are not freaky. Creepy to some people but really not freaky.

That's your analogy? A dog's jaw on your torso versus handling live bait?
See, I don't know if you're intending this, but this here is where people start to view doggie apologists as a little bit narrow-sighted on the issue. They kind of dismiss the worries of others and just carry on not really concerned about their effect on others. And the rest of us are like, WTF!? If I went to your grandmother's house and scared her every day, I'd be a monster, right? But to the doggie owners, it's just a regular laugh-riot.

I realize that ford says his situation did INDEED include a guy who was actually a dog-guy and they all thought it was funny later. But I'm coming from the point of view that they were all just lucky that the employee was also a dog guy, and it could have gone very badly. And that it has, in fact, gone badly for others. Whose stories are dismissed as the fault of the victim (i.e. if I knew as much about dogs as you, I would never have gotten bitten.)

However, it was dangerous. The guy didn't know the dog. The dog could have been a dangerous dog. The guy could have done more stupid stuff and actually gotten hurt.

Well, that's certainly not a freaky situation in a workplace!

Where do you get this idea that it is common? You've told us all dogs are different. So tell us, what EXACTLY should that employee have done to GUARANTEE a lovely outcome with the sweet charming well behaved doggie who was nudging at him?

Please let us know so we won't be idiots any more.

A dog who is nudging at you wants something.

Oh? Now remember the conversation went that only an idiot does not know this, and it is common sense. Some of us asked, what on earth makes you think people would know this who are not doggie people? Sharks nudge, and they want something. They want to find out if you're good to eat.

That's the part that I find most bizarre. This insistence that EVERYONE must learn to love dogs, so that dog owners do not have to exercise the responsibility of owning dogs around people who do not wish to be doggie friends.

In a low calm voice, speak to the dog: Ask what it wants.

So that the owner can have a dog without keeping it away from people who do not care what it wants?

Offer a hand to sniff if it seems safe.

Oh, I love doing that. I can feel my eyes starting to itch already. I love this advice.
Hey, did I mention that I DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH YOUR DOG? Why do I have to touch your dog?
I don't understand this, I really don't. If you can't keep your dog off of me, don't own it.

Usually, with a trained dog,

How are we knowing if it's a trained doggie again?

if you ask what it wants, it will indicate what it wants. In this case, my guess--and it is only a guess--is that it would have led the guy to the boss in order for the boss to ok the guy. Without the mouth part.

What a thoroughly intuitive scenario! I always assume dogs that I have never seen before want to take me with them to meet a person.

If it seems unsafe to offer your hand to the dog to sniff, then call out to see if other humans are near. This was a shop, apparently not a large one. The boss was nearby.

Or, the dog owner could maintain control of their dog?

The other thing that one could do if the above doesn't seem practical or safe: In a firm low register voice, tell the dog to "Git" and point away, arm extended, in a firm way.

You know what's interesting about this advice? When I do it and the owner _is_ nearby? They never seem to take that as a signal that they should come and control their dog. Instead it is always (and I mean always, it's amazing!) "Oh, she just wants to say hi!" Like I just didn't say "git" for a reason.

If that seems unsafe,then the best thing to do is to simply calmly stay still and wait. Either help will come or the dog will leave.

Ummm, no, this does not work. There is not always a person nearby and there is not always a calming sense that comes over fido.
I would be interested in watching you try this and see how it works - remember the goal is to not touch the dog, although it is hard to get dog owners to understand this goal. They just don't seem to care and instead like to say it is my fault, or I should be ashamed for not wanting to touch their dog or something.

Nm

 

[Metaphor]

I've stated multiple times that it is foolish and ineffective to swat at a large, strange dog.

Its also foolish to own a large dog and leave it unsupervised in places where other people have a right to be. Unlike some of the others arguing against your position I love dogs. I've also had a few attempt to attack me while rollerblading. Fortunately the dogs that chased after me immediately disengaged once I maneuvered to counter attack them and their instincts correctly surmised I wasn't prey.

It's not foolish: it's selfish. It's blissful ignorance of, or reckless indifference to, the needs, comforts, and right to quiet enjoyment of other people.

 

[laughing dog]

I think you should reread what I wrote in the context of the entire post. My explicit comment about being a fool was predicated on the previous comments of "A person could very well know whether their life was in imminent danger or not, depending on how the dog is acting. If the dog is not growling nor trying to throw you to the ground, you are not in immiment danger. If the jaws are firm but not breaking the skin, one is not in danger of one's life. " by me and followed by "A reasonable person would be in full-on fight-or-flight mode when being restrained by an unknown dog." In my view, it is foolish to immediately be "in full flight or fight mode" without regard to the actual situation because it might exacerbate the situation.

Curious why you think it's so universal and obvious to be able to judge the mood of a dog that is a stranger to you? I find this to be very unlikely for a large segment of the population and I do not think they are idiots or fools.

Dogs are usually pretty obvious about their intent - clear aggressive behavior such as lunging or growling. Dogs are a fact of life around the USA and it is foolish for people to remain ignorant about such a common possible risk. Just like it is foolish for people in the USA to remain ignorant about judging driver behavior when they are crossing a street.

 

[Toni]

I've stated multiple times that it is foolish and ineffective to swat at a large, strange dog.

Its also foolish to own a large dog and leave it unsupervised in places where other people have a right to be. Unlike some of the others arguing against your position I love dogs. I've also had a few attempt to attack me while rollerblading. Fortunately the dogs that chased after me immediately disengaged once I maneuvered to counter attack them and their instincts correctly surmised I wasn't prey.

The dog had every right to be there. In fact, she was doing her job. Well.

The employee seems to have been unexpected and did not intially respond well to the situation. Apparently responded well as the situation progressed. No one was hurt. Everyone had a laugh.

I am certain that EVERYBODY involved was well aware that things could have gone very badly and that all are grateful that they did not.

I agree that dog owners have a great deal of responsibility towards their pets, towards their families,towards visitors, and the public in general.

But that does not mean that the general public does not also have responsibilities. Even if you hate and loathe dogs, and no matter how much you despise them, there are dogs. It is a smart thing to know how to behave around strange dogs. It is very smart to know how to behave around a dog which is threatening. FOR YOUR OWN SAKE. It is NOT ABOUT BLAMING ANYBODY. It's about learning skills to help you.

I like to hike and to spend time in the woods. The woods near where I grew up had no bears and hadn't for many years. I moved several times and ended up in an area with some bears. Many more in the spots where I like to vacation. I think comparing bears and dogs is not completely apt but here's the thing: It was my job to know how to behave if I should come upon a wild bear in the woods. Because my life and my safety depend upon it. Bad things can still happen. I think I know what to do but I've not been placed in that exact situation yet. All the bears I've encountered in the wild so far have been at a safe distance. I might panic or forget everything I've tried to learn. But the smart thing for me to do is to either do my best to learn how to avoid bears and what to do if there is an unexpected meeting with a bear--or to stay completely away from the woods.

This being the modern world, bears are not likely to happen in my every day life. But dogs are present in neighborhoods, in parks (even where they aren't actually allowed), in rural areas. There are plenty of really good, responsible dog owners and good, responsible dogs. There are also poorly trained dogs who are owned by people who are very certain that their dog is well trained. Most of the time, those dogs don't bite. But sometimes, they might. Some dogs have a high degree of territoriality in their genetic makeup. I specifically looked for dog breed without this trait because I live in town, in an area with a lot of foot traffic. Not everybody thinks of this but some of us do. Dogs who are raised on farms often take on the responsibility of guarding the farm from strangers. That is why extra caution is needed for YOUR safety. Dogs who live in rural areas are more like farm dogs: they often tend to believe they are guarding their families.


I agree 100% that dogs should be fenced or leashed. It keeps everybody safer. But sometimes, dogs get loose. Sometimes, dogs are let loose by those oh, so nice passers by. Sometimes, a dog chases a rabbit and pulls his leash out of his owner's hands and off he goes! Things happen. In a perfect world, all dogs would have perfect recall, no leashes would break, no one would ever have a moment of inattention and no one would ever deliberately provoke a dog (which I have seen happen).

We don't live in a perfect world.

The question is: do you want to be right or do you want to be as safe as you possibly can be? Because let me tell you: this is not a world where we get to control everything everybody else does. Or where there are no unknown factors, no risks, 100% safety.

It's time to stop being 5 years old and take a bit of responsibility for your own safety.

 

[ApostateAbe]

ApostateAbe,

What is race and why are some [characteristics] racial and other are not?

A "race" is a population within a species with genetic frequencies different from other populations within the same species caused by a difference of geography of the ancestors. The most relevant genetic differences are driven by differences in selection pressures, and those differences tend to be the noticeable racial phenotypic dfferences. This is not the political definition of "race" but the Darwinian definition, applying to both humans and dogs. Political races may assume discrete separations between the races, which would NOT apply well to the biological concept.

 

[Toni]

Its also foolish to own a large dog and leave it unsupervised in places where other people have a right to be. Unlike some of the others arguing against your position I love dogs. I've also had a few attempt to attack me while rollerblading. Fortunately the dogs that chased after me immediately disengaged once I maneuvered to counter attack them and their instincts correctly surmised I wasn't prey.

It's not foolish: it's selfish. It's blissful ignorance of, or reckless indifference to, the needs, comforts, and right to quiet enjoyment of other people.

How smart is it to refuse to learn how to deal with unexpected dogs and get hurt?

No one is arguing that dogs should be allowed to do whatever they want. No one is arguing that dog owners do not have a great deal of responsibility not only for their dog but for any human who might encounter them.

That's not the question. The question is: if you unexpectedly come upon a dog which is threatening, how do you behave to minimize the chances you will be injured?

It's a very legitimate position that people should learn how to behave if they confront (insert unexpected potential threat here).

People who drive cars are expected to be observant, drive for the conditions, notice pedestrians, particularly small children who might impulsively go into the street or who might fall into their path. They are expected to yield to pedestrians. It's illegal, in fact, for them to fail to do so.

But it happens all of the time. Which is why we all learn to cross the street carefully, to look both ways, to use cross walks and other signage and signals to help ensure our own safety. Because no matter how right we might be, when it is human vs car, the human loses.

 

[Deepak]

Offer a hand to sniff if it seems safe.

Oh, I love doing that. I can feel my eyes starting to itch already. I love this advice.
Hey, did I mention that I DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH YOUR DOG? Why do I have to touch your dog?
I don't understand this, I really don't. If you can't keep your dog off of me, don't own it.

I'm just going to leave this here.

 

[Nexus]

I'm just going to leave this here.

Some here might argue that wasn't an attack because no skin was broken. And if the non-victim laughed afterwards it definitely wasn't an attack.

Was that from one of those dog whisperer shows?

 

[Deepak]

I'm just going to leave this here.

Some here might argue that wasn't an attack because no skin was broken. And if the non-victim laughed afterwards it definitely wasn't an attack.

Was that from one of those dog whisperer shows?

Cesar Millan.

 

[Toni]

So bear in mind that just before I was bitten quite deeply by a "very well trained dog," its owner was shouting while it was running toward me on my bike, "She's friendly, she doesn't bite!"

So the dog owner who presumably knows all about dog psychology felt I had no reason to be in a worried state. And me, the person who presumably is "an idiot" about dog psychology was thinking, "that thing's going to attack me!"

No, the dog owner did not presumably know about dog psychology. Why would you presume that? A dog was coming after you. The owner was shouting reassurances at you instead of seeking to regain control of her dog. She didn't know what to do. That's why YOU needed to know what to do.

And then it grabbed my thigh in its teeth and pulled off flesh.

To prevent that from happening.

Later, everyone (but me) was thinking, oh, she didn't mean, it, she was just startled, it's all okay. No, the dog was not put down, because everyone knew it was "just" bad luck.

Did you speak up? Did you say: The dog is obviously not as well trained as you think it is? What will you do to ensure this never happens again?

I like to run on my own street in my own neighborhood - if that's okay with the doggie owners?

You want to be safe? Learn something aside from more ways to whine. Reality: there are dogs who are unleashed there and chase after bicyclists.

You have some choices:

1) You can (and should) learn some effective tactics for dealing with unleashed dogs. Even if they don't bite you, they can easily cause you to fall. They may not intend to but we're talking about your safety.
2) You can ride outside of your neighborhood to avoid unleashed dogs. Which sucks. I don't ride in my neighborhood because of asshole drivers and a street which is seriously too crowded for me to feel safe riding there with the lever of traffic in my neighborhood. Oh, sure the city put in bike lanes. Changed nothing. You have to deal with dogs. I have to deal with cars.
3) You can go to your city or neighborhood association and advocate for better leash laws. You can and should have reported the dog chasing/bite to the police. People will take that seriously, even if they are delusional about how nice their dog is.
4. You can keep on doing what you are doing but the chances are very good that you will keep on getting what you have been getting. But it's your choice.

OK, then you need to know how to do it safely.

So, I was thinking that doggie owners maybe need to be less blase' about their animals? But, yeah, an alternative is that it's my problem.

I agree that dog owners should be more responsible. That doesn't mean you should learn some skills to ENSURE YOUR OWN SAFETY.

You need to realize that running/jogging triggers a prey drive in dogs and most will want to run after you.

So, I was thinking that doggie owners maybe need to realize this about their animals? But, yeah, an alternative is that it's my problem.

No: it's about how dogs and humans can coexist safely. I've already stated in numerous posts that I think dog owners should be responsible for their dogs. The reality is that some dog owners are not and that sometimes, dogs are accidentally or purposely let out of confinement.

The question is: do you want to be right or do you want to be safe?

You live in the real world. You are an adult. You have some measure of responsibility for your own life, your own safety.

Some, those who are accustomed to running with their owners may just want to run by your side.

My point all along has been that the doggie owners perhaps need to take responsibility for the fact that not all humans have any desire for this.

Rhea: meet reality: there are dogs who will be allowed to roam, and dogs who unintentionally are on the loose. You can keep whining about how mean and bad dogs and dog owners are or you can act like a grown up and learn to deal.

But untrained dogs will simply be driven to want to chase after you. That's simply a fact.

Interestingly, I had been discussing how I think doggie owners should take the lead role in this - sort of as an attitude kinda thing.

Your attitude is limited at best and apparently doesn't include a good faith reading of information YOU asked for and I provided. No one in this thread has disagreed that owners should be responsible for their dogs. The question is how are you going to protect yourself?

Stopping is usually the correct thing to do, even if it is inconvenient and scary.

So see how this went? The "correct thing to do" is for dog owners to inconvenience and scare their neighbors. I had been discussing an alternative.

YOU asked ME what to do. I told you. You don't care to learn. You prefer to get bit. Odd choice.

I would call out to see if you can get the owner to come and leash the dog.

Joking? Not sure what you mean by this.
Although one wonders, why on earth would it be the jogger's job to attend to this, assuming there was an owner nearby to be called and assuming they had a leash and felt like using it?

Well, you seem to be the one with the problem with the dog. You are the one who is afraid of being bitten. So, yes, it does behoove you to learn some skills. Because sometimes, dogs get loose.

See, it's my experience that owner says, "oh, she won't bite, she just wants to say hi."

Interestingly, I don't fucking want to say hi to the dog.

Nor should you have to. My dogs have never bitten but I would never expect anyone else to take that for granted or to know that my dog who is chasing after them is 'harmless.' Which is why I don't allow that. Because a chasing dog isn't harmless, even if the dog means no harm and simply wants to run along side you. There's a lot of potential for the dog to cut in front of you and throw you or for the dog to be injured. It's not a safe situation.

However, plenty of people approach my dog, stick their faces in her face, sometimes try to offer whatever junk they are eating or want their tiny child who is obviously afraid of my dog to learn not to be afraid of dogs. Now, I know my dog loves children but they don't and that's a stupid stupid stupid thing to do. People have also attempted to call my dog across the street, have thrown things at my dog from their cars and various forms of idiocy. There are a lot of stupid people out there.

To be honest, I'd pick a different area to jog because being chased by dogs is annoying, at best and usually dangerous. Even the dog doesn't nip or bite, it can trip you and result in a serious injury to you. That is not a good thing.

Serious suggestion? Drive completely out of town to jog because dog owners have no responsibility to allow safe passage on my own street?

Not if you prefer to be chased and/or bitten.

I think that dog owners do have that responsibility. If that isn't the case in your town, your choices are: jog elsewhere or take it up with whatever the governing body is in your area.

I think you have a right to jog in your own neighborhood and a right to jog safely. Right now, you don't feel safe, and I can see why. But I think you are smart enough to know that just because you want something, doesn't mean the entire world or even just your neighborhood will intuit your wants and needs and desires and grant them.

You want to be safe: learn some skills, advocate for leash laws and/or jog somewhere else.

You may think I am an idiot but consider this: I've had several strange dogs go after me in very aggressive ways: head low, snarling, growling, lunging. I've never been bitten. I've never struck the dog. I've never swatted at the dog and only once has the owner ever come to call the dog off (and then apologize. I was a kid on my bike with my little sister. Neither of us was hurt.) You might consider that I've had better luck in avoiding bites than you have because maybe I know something about dogs. This is not magic. It's skill and knowledge. It's also not infallible. There was some luck involved but the best bit of luck is that I had a father who taught me how to behave around animals.

I do wonder what you know about dogs that would have saved me from getting bitten as I rode my bike past my neighbor's house?
What was it that I did wrong, Toni? That my lack of doggie knowledge brought on myself?

No one thinks you brought anything on yourself. But you said the owner was near by, was calling to you that the dog was safe. Obviously, not so safe as you were bitten. But how did you react to the dog? There are ways that you can react to minimize the danger and reduce the risk to yourself. Standing on the ground, strong posture, if possible with the bike between you and the animal, while the owner retrieves the dog would be one thing that you could do. Squealing would be a bad thing: it mimics the cries of prey and can excite a dog further. Striking at the dog is a bad move. The dog will be provoked or else possibly think you are playing. I'm not writing this to tell you it is your fault but to tell you some things that might help you cope if you should ever find yourself in that situation again.

When I've had dogs go after me--and it's happened several times--I've stopped, turned to face the dog and called for the owner (stranger to me). Eventually, the cowardly little slimeball owner would call the dog. Then I would go home and call the police. Because the next person might not be so lucky.

See, I don't know if you're intending this, but this here is where people start to view doggie apologists as a little bit narrow-sighted on the issue. They kind of dismiss the worries of others and just carry on not really concerned about their effect on others. And the rest of us are like, WTF!? If I went to your grandmother's house and scared her every day, I'd be a monster, right? But to the doggie owners, it's just a regular laugh-riot.

Really not at all like anything I've said or that anyone in this thread has said. I take dog ownership very seriously and believe that everyone should. I know that I am responsible for my dog's behavior. I think all dog owners are responsible for their dogs behavior. And I think all people are responsible for their own behavior.

I realize that ford says his situation did INDEED include a guy who was actually a dog-guy and they all thought it was funny later. But I'm coming from the point of view that they were all just lucky that the employee was also a dog guy, and it could have gone very badly. And that it has, in fact, gone badly for others. Whose stories are dismissed as the fault of the victim (i.e. if I knew as much about dogs as you, I would never have gotten bitten.)

YOU asked ME what you should do. I responded, not with any sort of blame at all, but with practical suggestions FOR YOUR SAFETY.

I am very well aware that I have been lucky that none of the dogs who came after me actually bit me. But it wasn't just luck. It also had to do with me learning some skills to protect myself and my kids. And once, it also involved me moving house.

That's the part that I find most bizarre. This insistence that EVERYONE must learn to love dogs, so that dog owners do not have to exercise the responsibility of owning dogs around people who do not wish to be doggie friends.

Again: no one has suggested that you or anybody else should love dogs. Or like them. Or tolerate being around them. But I have made suggestions for what you could do to help YOU be safer. You don't care for my suggestions? Fair enough. But your way isn't working out so well for you.

In a low calm voice, speak to the dog: Ask what it wants.

So that the owner can have a dog without keeping it away from people who do not care what it wants?

You asked for safety suggestions: I gave you some. You don't want to learn? Fine. Continue your way but you wont' get better outcomes.

Offer a hand to sniff if it seems safe.

Oh, I love doing that. I can feel my eyes starting to itch already. I love this advice.
Hey, did I mention that I DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH YOUR DOG? Why do I have to touch your dog?
I don't understand this, I really don't. If you can't keep your dog off of me, don't own it.

If you really cannot stand the idea of ever encountering a dog, maybe move to Iceland. Oh, I keep forgetting: only poor poor poor helpless little Rhea is allowed to make snarky unhelpful remarks that do nothing to further the conversation.

You don't want to learn survival techniques? Don't ask for them.

Usually, with a trained dog,

How are we knowing if it's a trained doggie again?

Get your head out of your own way and actually TRY instead of curling up in a ball and squealing like a little boy.

if you ask what it wants, it will indicate what it wants. In this case, my guess--and it is only a guess--is that it would have led the guy to the boss in order for the boss to ok the guy. Without the mouth part.

What a thoroughly intuitive scenario! I always assume dogs that I have never seen before want to take me with them to meet a person.

Then you shouldn't be having the problems you have been.

Oh, I keep forgetting. Only YOU are allowed to be snarky and nasty.

If it seems unsafe to offer your hand to the dog to sniff, then call out to see if other humans are near. This was a shop, apparently not a large one. The boss was nearby.

Or, the dog owner could maintain control of their dog?

We're talking about situations where the dog is not in the control of the owner. I believe you asked about that.

The other thing that one could do if the above doesn't seem practical or safe: In a firm low register voice, tell the dog to "Git" and point away, arm extended, in a firm way.

You know what's interesting about this advice? When I do it and the owner _is_ nearby? They never seem to take that as a signal that they should come and control their dog. Instead it is always (and I mean always, it's amazing!) "Oh, she just wants to say hi!" Like I just didn't say "git" for a reason.

What did the dog do?

If that seems unsafe,then the best thing to do is to simply calmly stay still and wait. Either help will come or the dog will leave.

Ummm, no, this does not work. There is not always a person nearby and there is not always a calming sense that comes over fido.
I would be interested in watching you try this and see how it works - remember the goal is to not touch the dog, although it is hard to get dog owners to understand this goal. They just don't seem to care and instead like to say it is my fault, or I should be ashamed for not wanting to touch their dog or something.

That's how I got out of situations with the dogs who attacked me. Yes, in 3 of the 4 cases, the owners were idiots but eventually, they came and called their dog. Then I went home and called the police.

 

[Rhea]

Toni, people _have_ been saying it is the fault of the victim for not knowing how to deal with all types of dogs. It's what prompted these responses of me and others saying, "wait, no"


No, I did not call the police because I was 11 years old at the time. No I could not possibly have stopped my bike in time to stand firmly behind it with my 4'9" 75# body (probably smaller than the dog). My point in relating that story is that no it is not "foolish" to react with fear to large dogs even ones that are friendly. Despite someone on this thread saying that it was foolish to react with fear to a dog, thereby making it the victim's own fault. That dog was friendly, had been for years. It was the pet of my friend.

Toni, you keep saying why don't I just learn and follow your advice. And yes, you DID say that you had never been bitten, unlike me, because you learned about dogs. That was why I wondered what you think I had done wrong while I rode my bike as an 11 year old down my street and the dog - a perfectly friendly one as far as I know and as far as her owners would report - just decided to bite me. You gave options that were not physically possible like stopping a fast moving bike before the dog arrives. So I still wonder how your claim that your knowledge of dogs would have prevented you from having been bitten. You keep saying I am refusing to learn - I'm not. I am engaging in an additional discussion about why people are so keen to own an animal that requires others to be so careful while claiming that interactions that go bad are the fault of poor learning. To the point that they blame the others for not being careful enough and do not engage in any conversation about changing owner behavior. Yes, I asked what is it about dog ownership that makes people refuse to accept that they can be dangerous or maybe not, but maybe so and at different levels to different people and 100% of the responsibility of safety is on the person who deliberately chooses to own that animal.

There are more bear in my neighborhood than dogs. There are more coyote than dogs. There is a family of foxes practically in my yard (see absolutely adorable pictures in the "animals roaming free" thread). But unlike dogs, there is no human owner around saying I should stand still for it or let it sniff me. And these animals do not want to run with me. They see me and they back off.

Another option, of course, is to carry a gun and do to dogs what I would do to coyotes if they chased me. But dog owners tend to get so funny about that idea.

My comments are not about the wisdom of this tactic or that, it's about the curiosity of making the whole conversation about how people are 'idiotic" if they react with fear to a dog.

Here's the reality. There is NO leash law in this area. ALL dogs roam free. There is no homeowners association. There is absolutely no way a leash law would be enacted. Many of the things that you claim are the right thing to do about dogs are things I am forced to do. But oddly, each time I bring up the owner, you do not address those comments.

I have many friends who own dogs. Many of them are supremely responsible. One actually remembers that I am allergic and takes the initiative to not let her dog touch me so that I don't have to shove it off. Which is really sweet. And I'm glad she considers that her job, not mine. And don't you think all dog owners should do that?


I can see that you think I am "whiney" or "crybaby" about this. Perhaps you can accept that it is a discussion about the other side of the coin? For every advice you are saying I need to learn, is it not perhaps remotely possible that even people who think they are good dog owners have something to learn, too? About the fact that the world includes people who do not want to be scared by or touched by or stopped by their dog? And that if they want to own one, they should accept this as their responsibility?

Perhaps not. It's my experience that many dog owners are insulted by people not liking their dogs. And they get very defensive and talk about all the ways I should change and tend to get downright angry if I turn the discussion to ways they could change. They want to talk about how I can interact with their dog, how if only I let the dog into my pack, I would never face an angry dog. They want to talk about how it's my fault if a dog interaction goes bad. They want to claim that _everyone_ knows what dogs are thinking. Eh, maybe that will continue to happen here, too.

You claimed I was the only one allowed to be snarky. But perhaps you overlooked that the claims of "fool" and "idiot" arrived pages before any snark of mine. That, too, is fine. I can read, I can see.


~shrug~ no harm on my end. I'm not one to hold grudges, anyway, so when the thread's over I'm on full reset and everyone's right again in my book.

Now then, about that original topic. Yeah, this does nothing to support that original race-superiority hypothesis that was fully debunked & rejected.

 

[Deepak]

Another option, of course, is to carry a gun and do to dogs what I would do to coyotes if they chased me. But dog owners tend to get so funny about that idea.

I always carry a gun when I'm in an area where I know dogs tend to go unattended.

Show

If an unleashed dog approaches me, I pepper spray the dog, follow it home, and shoot the owner.

 

[Rhea]

Another option, of course, is to carry a gun and do to dogs what I would do to coyotes if they chased me. But dog owners tend to get so funny about that idea.

I always carry a gun when I'm in an area where I know dogs tend to go unattended.

Show

If an unleashed dog approaches me, I pepper spray the dog, follow it home, and shoot the owner.

LOL, 55 points to Griffindor.

 

[Toni]

Toni, people _have_ been saying it is the fault of the victim for not knowing how to deal with all types of dogs. It's what prompted these responses of me and others saying, "wait, no"


No, I did not call the police because I was 11 years old at the time. No I could not possibly have stopped my bike in time to stand firmly behind it with my 4'9" 75# body (probably smaller than the dog). My point in relating that story is that no it is not "foolish" to react with fear to large dogs even ones that are friendly. Despite someone on this thread saying that it was foolish to react with fear to a dog, thereby making it the victim's own fault. That dog was friendly, had been for years. It was the pet of my friend.

I guess you missed the part where the first time I was attacked, it was by a dog that well outweighed my 9 year old self, not to mention my kid sister who was on the back of my bicycle. The dog had burst out of the screened door. We were lucky because the owner was horrified and retrieved the dog immediately.

And yes: even a kid can stop and call out and make sure the bike is between them and the dog. Is this fool proof? No, of course not. Did I call the police? I am pretty sure I didn't even tell my parents. My mother would have simply smacked me for taking my sister to a 'dangerous' place where we had been dozens of times before and where she knew we were going--less than 5 blocks from our house. One smack for my sister crying was enough for me.

Telling someone that reacting in certain ways is foolish is NOT telling them that something was their fault. It IS foolish to try to outrun or outride a dog. Unless it is a very tiny dog. That's simply fact. It is SMART to learn defensive positions and strategies. For YOUR protection. Not because it is your fault but because if a dog bites you, it will hurt. And could be much worse. Of course it could also end up being fatal for the dog but that's not been my concern in this thread.

Toni, you keep saying why don't I just learn and follow your advice. And yes, you DID say that you had never been bitten, unlike me, because you learned about dogs. That was why I wondered what you think I had done wrong while I rode my bike as an 11 year old down my street and the dog - a perfectly friendly one as far as I know and as far as her owners would report - just decided to bite me. You gave options that were not physically possible like stopping a fast moving bike before the dog arrives.

I don't know your reaction time or your breaking time. The dog who burst out of the house when I was a kid was a German Shepherd: a large, fast dog. The yards were quite small and so was the distance between the front door and the street where I rode. I am neither particularly brilliant or fast or athletic. I stopped the bike. Even if the dog had arrived before I knew it was coming, I knew not to keep going: the dog would chase, by instinct. And win that race. And probably drag me down. Yes, I had an advantage of being raised with dogs and dog people and farm people. I honestly cannot remember a time when I did not know this.

I also knew from a very young age--before first grade, for certain, that some dogs were dangerous and to be avoided, always. There was a crazy dog which lived down the street from us. None of us were allowed to go to the back yard and pet him as he was well known to be dangerous. Periodically, he would get out and the alarm would go up the street: mothers would call out or call on the phone and all the kids were pulled inside because that dog was out. I was too small to know what, if anything, the parents did as far as reporting the dog. But all of us knew not to ever, ever approach that dog. One little girl who lived next door was somehow friends with the dog. She was trying to help another girl get over her (realistic) fear of this dog. Surely no adults was aware of this going on. The other girl got severely bitten on her face and had many, many stitches. If memory served, the dog was put down after that, but those bites would have left horrible scars. I have ALWAYS known that dogs could be dangerous.

So I still wonder how your claim that your knowledge of dogs would have prevented you from having been bitten. You keep saying I am refusing to learn - I'm not.

Really? That is not evident from your responses to me. Whether you see it or not, I've been attacked but never bitten. Including when I was a kid, with a smaller kid in my charge. Including when I was pregnant and burdened further by carrying a toddler. Must have been sheer dumb luck. Or magic. Maybe I'm magic? God knows I don't know a damn thing about anything.

I am engaging in an additional discussion about why people are so keen to own an animal that requires others to be so careful while claiming that interactions that go bad are the fault of poor learning. To the point that they blame the others for not being careful enough and do not engage in any conversation about changing owner behavior. Yes, I asked what is it about dog ownership that makes people refuse to accept that they can be dangerous or maybe not, but maybe so and at different levels to different people and 100% of the responsibility of safety is on the person who deliberately chooses to own that animal.

The intent of 'discussion' was not at all apparent in any part of your response to me.

You are wrong, however, that other people have no responsibility for their own safety. Other people can and do stupid and foolish and abusive things to other people's dogs: pull ears, throw things, run at and push their own face into the dog's face. All of those things have happened to dogs whose leashes I was holding before I could anticipate, react, stop the bad human behavior. My dog didn't bite or even bark. Of course it is possible that my dog might not have had so much self control. We were all lucky that he did.

There are more bear in my neighborhood than dogs. There are more coyote than dogs. There is a family of foxes practically in my yard (see absolutely adorable pictures in the "animals roaming free" thread). But unlike dogs, there is no human owner around saying I should stand still for it or let it sniff me. And these animals do not want to run with me. They see me and they back off.

It is incorrect to compare the behavior of wild animals to that of dogs. As you correctly pointed out,most wild animals avoid humans. Dogs are not normally afraid of humans and are accustomed to interacting with them. You know what kinds of strategies to use to help you avoid an attack by a bear or a coyote. Why do you think it is not to your advantage to learn the strategies to avoid an attack by a dog? I am not suggesting that human owners should not be responsible. Of course they should be! But if they aren't, or if a dog gets out by mistake--and that happens! you are the one , who would be harmed in an attack. That is why YOU should learn strategies, which may differ somewhat than the strategies for avoiding a bear attack or a coyote attack.

My comments are not about the wisdom of this tactic or that, it's about the curiosity of making the whole conversation about how people are 'idiotic" if they react with fear to a dog.

Here's the reality. There is NO leash law in this area. ALL dogs roam free. There is no homeowners association. There is absolutely no way a leash law would be enacted. Many of the things that you claim are the right thing to do about dogs are things I am forced to do. But oddly, each time I bring up the owner, you do not address those comments.

I have many friends who own dogs. Many of them are supremely responsible. One actually remembers that I am allergic and takes the initiative to not let her dog touch me so that I don't have to shove it off. Which is really sweet. And I'm glad she considers that her job, not mine. And don't you think all dog owners should do that?

You asked how to avoid dog attacks. I responded to that request.

If you had a serious question about dog owners, you should have perhaps actually asked a question instead of ignoring the many times that I said that of course dog owners should be responsible, that of course dog owners should train and restrain their dogs, and retrieve them if they get loose and go after people.

I can see that you think I am "whiney" or "crybaby" about this. Perhaps you can accept that it is a discussion about the other side of the coin? For every advice you are saying I need to learn, is it not perhaps remotely possible that even people who think they are good dog owners have something to learn, too? About the fact that the world includes people who do not want to be scared by or touched by or stopped by their dog? And that if they want to own one, they should accept this as their responsibility?

Really, when have I suggested that dog owners didn't bear responsibility for adequately training and restraining their dogs? I responded to your request for how YOU could avoid being attacked. That meant what YOU could do. Because if a dog gets loose and goes after someone on a bicycle or a jogger, then what matters FIRST is what the biker or jogger does to protect herself. Of course the owner should immediately retrieve the dog. I know very well that some owners 'know' their dog is fine and think their reassurances are sufficient and of course that is a bad way to react--or to fail to act. But sometimes dog owners just *might* be trying to calm down the victim as they retrieve their dog because the fact is that a running person will trigger the chase instinct in a dog--any dog. A squealing, crying person will likely excite a dog which is already excited. The sounds will either sound like prey (not at all good for the person under attack) or can be mistaken for sounds a child playing and enjoying the dog running 'with' them would make. People are smarter than dogs. Dogs do not always understand or correctly interpret human behavior any more than humans do.

You asked me what YOU could do. So I told you. Now you want to criticize me for not talking about how bad the owners were? How would that have helped YOU?

Perhaps not. It's my experience that many dog owners are insulted by people not liking their dogs. And they get very defensive and talk about all the ways I should change and tend to get downright angry if I turn the discussion to ways they could change. They want to talk about how I can interact with their dog, how if only I let the dog into my pack, I would never face an angry dog. They want to talk about how it's my fault if a dog interaction goes bad. They want to claim that _everyone_ knows what dogs are thinking. Eh, maybe that will continue to happen here, too.

You claimed I was the only one allowed to be snarky. But perhaps you overlooked that the claims of "fool" and "idiot" arrived pages before any snark of mine. That, too, is fine. I can read, I can see.

You want a discussion about responsible dog ownership--go right ahead: start one. You want someone to tell you (at your request) how to avoid dog attacks? Don't expect any treatises on owner behavior. That won't give YOU a single tool to use to avoid a dog attack.

You can be as offended as you would like but it is foolish and idiotic to respond to a dog in ways that will cause the dog to believe that you are attacking it, are prey, or want to play. Because doing that might get you a dog bite. THAT'S what makes it foolish and idiotic. It's ineffective and dangerous to you.

 

[Toni]

error

 

[Deepak]

error

Not blood and gore, sure - but the man is purportedly an expert in dogs, and he put out his hand for the dog to sniff.

I did go to school with a kid who was attacked by a dog. We used to sit together on the school bus. One day he wasn't there, and I didn't see him for a week. When I did his whole face was stitched up. One of the neighborhood dogs got out of its owner's yard and nearly chewed his nose off while he was playing in his yard.

IIRC dog attacks are in the top 5 most common reason for kids 15 or younger being admitted to the emergency room. And I know that the CDC actually tracks dog bites as a separate category from bites and stings from all other animals - which should be pretty telling about the risk associated with unruly dogs.

I'm of the opinion that dog people seriously play up their ability to understand these imperfect communicators, and in general our society takes a very cavalier attitude to dog ownership.

Where I think we agree is that the responsibility lies with the dog owner. Where we might not is that I think there should be more controls in who is allowed to own a dog, and there shouldn't be any onus on not-dog-people to learn or take specific safety precautions for dealing with dogs.

 

[laughing dog]

Not blood and gore, sure - but the man is purportedly an expert in dogs, and he put out his hand for the dog to sniff.

The man is an expert. He knew the dog was aggressive and he put his hand out to provoke or gauge the expected reaction.

Where I think we agree is that the responsibility lies with the dog owner. Where we might not is that I think there should be more controls in who is allowed to own a dog, and there shouldn't be any onus on not-dog-people to learn or take specific safety precautions for dealing with dogs.

So you must also agree that pedestrians should not have to look before crossing a street.