Gaza "beach" -- what really happened

[angelo]

Are you denying that Jews can trace their roots to that land that goes back thousands of years. In the first century it was the Romans who named it Palestinia from the Jewish Samaria and Judea. The original Palestinians were Jews until the Romans dispersed them after the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem the ancient capital of the Jewish state. The Jews co existed with the gentiles [non Jews] and others. There's no stealing of any land from anyone, much of it was bought and settlements established. Most of the land was swamp, desert and turned into what it is today by those settlers.

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[fromderinside]

.... Israel expected to be able to beat and starve them into submission, which some people apparently think is the same thing.

Now there's a dumb move. Jews especially should recognize one is never defeated by killing and starving. They have the lesson of  Warsaw Ghetto etched in their collective psyche.

Its really tough when one's laws still have some of the same stuff in their opponent's  Sharia law.

Seems to me that Theological states, whatever the political-economic trappings, are destined for history's dust bin. Separation by belief just doesn't work in large complex cultures.

 

[angelo]

Tell that to the Saudis or other Islamic states!

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[fromderinside]

Tell that to the Saudis or other Islamic states!

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I just did.

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[laughing dog]

So you're admitting the murdering terrorist struck first!

And that justifies a murderous terroristic reaction by the IDF and some settlers because....?

 

[Jayjay]

What hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that Israel isn't the aggressor. It's only defending itself.

Not exactly.

Three Jewish boys were kidnapped in the West Bank. Israel began raiding Hamas facilities, offices, and the homes of members, killing scores and arresting hundreds. When the boys were found to have been murdered, a Palestinian boy was murdered in retaliation. Tensions continued to rise, Israel and Palestinian factions continued to fight, it escalated into artillery fire and rocket attacks, but before it became a full blown military engagement, Israel killed four children playing soccer on a beach, much to the shock of the witnesses present that day.

A fair assessment, but it conflates West Bank with Gaza. Israel had reason to raid the Hamas offices in West Bank, but it did no such thing in Gaza, and why would it? Israel's position from the beginning was to keep Gaza out of it, but Hamas insisted on starting firing rockets and thereby forcing Israel's hand. The Gaza war may have been a follow-up to the kidnapping of the students, but it was not a necessary consequence of it. It was Hamas's choice.

And as you alluded to in another post, one can always go back and try to find some preceding incident that can be used to justify violence from either side. That's how we get into ridiculous territory where we are talking about what happened during the times of the Roman Empire.

 

[arkirk]

Yes, they were in harms way.

They had Israelis killing indiscriminately nearby.

The casualty distribution makes it very clear that Israel's targeting isn't indiscriminate. Despite Hamas' human shield tactics the numbers currently stand at 44% combatants, 36% civilian and 20% so far undetermined. (Note that this goes down over time as martyr pages for combatants often go up long after the fighting is over once the news has died down.)

When you're firing ordinance into cities this is a very good track record--it's even better considering the Hamas use of human shield tactics.

(And note that it's Hamas that's committing the war crime here with the use of human shields.)

You keep yammering on endlessly about human shields. There is no safe place for a Palestinian in Gaza anywhere when the IDF starts to bomb. I really wish you would cut out this bullshit. No matter where a Gazan is, if the IDF kills him or her, he or she is a "human shield" for Hamas. You need to make it clear how it could be any other way. You need to spell out how Hamas could place people where they would not be human shields. Do you really think you can talk the Hamas people into lining up on a field then telling the IDF they are there? Only suicide sacrifice will do for the less than human animals according to you. Just stop this bullshit...please!

 

[Bronzeage]

What kind of a person defends the killing of children?

Many of the leftists on here. You don't seem to care one bit when Hamas puts kids where they'll die.

Gaza is a free fire zone. Israel has never shown a reluctance to target civilians when it suited their purposes. It's not really a case of Israel failing to identify their target and creating civilian casualties, they aren't concerned with collateral damage, because there is no collateral in Gaza.

The IDF has killed Americans when it was in their interest. Why would they be concerned with the death of a few boys playing soccer on the beach?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that Israel isn't the aggressor. It's only defending itself.

Not exactly.

Three Jewish boys were kidnapped in the West Bank. Israel began raiding Hamas facilities, offices, and the homes of members, killing scores and arresting hundreds. When the boys were found to have been murdered, a Palestinian boy was murdered in retaliation. Tensions continued to rise, Israel and Palestinian factions continued to fight, it escalated into artillery fire and rocket attacks, but before it became a full blown military engagement, Israel killed four children playing soccer on a beach, much to the shock of the witnesses present that day.

This thread is about the IDF's lame attempt to convince people it had no idea who or what it was shooting at despite it's ability to blow them up with chilling precision.

Killing scores??

And note that they were correct--it was a Hamas operation, although not under the direct control of Gaza.

And note what this thread is about--that "beach" was a Hamas-only military facility.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The people actually lived in peace long before last century. The trouble started in 1948 when the UN granted the Jews a homeland. The Arabs went to war so as to push the Jews into the Med. Got much worse in the Six day war when they were humiliated by a numerically inferior people fighting for their homeland and their very lives. When the Palestinian speaks of a two state solution and peace in English, in Arabic they are saying nothing of the kind. They want nothing less than to kill every last Jew. Just like their prophet taught them to.
The Jews, under world pressure and hoping to appease their retractors pulled out of Gaza, hoping it would bring them peace. Instead it brought them a hostile state from which hamas could continue attacking Israel non stop. If they were to pull out of the Left Bank as well, they would be committing suicide.

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No. It's just before 1948 the Jews had no real power and so the Arabs didn't make a fuss about them.

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[Loren Pechtel]

You keep yammering on endlessly about human shields. There is no safe place for a Palestinian in Gaza anywhere when the IDF starts to bomb. I really wish you would cut out this bullshit. No matter where a Gazan is, if the IDF kills him or her, he or she is a "human shield" for Hamas. You need to make it clear how it could be any other way. You need to spell out how Hamas could place people where they would not be human shields. Do you really think you can talk the Hamas people into lining up on a field then telling the IDF they are there? Only suicide sacrifice will do for the less than human animals according to you. Just stop this bullshit...please!

I do agree there isn't anyplace safe but that's because Hamas goes out of it's way to ensure there's no safety.

 

[arkirk]

You keep yammering on endlessly about human shields. There is no safe place for a Palestinian in Gaza anywhere when the IDF starts to bomb. I really wish you would cut out this bullshit. No matter where a Gazan is, if the IDF kills him or her, he or she is a "human shield" for Hamas. You need to make it clear how it could be any other way. You need to spell out how Hamas could place people where they would not be human shields. Do you really think you can talk the Hamas people into lining up on a field then telling the IDF they are there? Only suicide sacrifice will do for the less than human animals according to you. Just stop this bullshit...please!

I do agree there isn't anyplace safe but that's because Hamas goes out of it's way to ensure there's no safety.

So Hamas is just a bunch of little devils hating Palestinians and using them to bait the Israelis? Get over it Loren!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Many of the leftists on here. You don't seem to care one bit when Hamas puts kids where they'll die.

Gaza is a free fire zone. Israel has never shown a reluctance to target civilians when it suited their purposes. It's not really a case of Israel failing to identify their target and creating civilian casualties, they aren't concerned with collateral damage, because there is no collateral in Gaza.

The IDF has killed Americans when it was in their interest. Why would they be concerned with the death of a few boys playing soccer on the beach?

Try again.

Israel doesn't target civilians.

Hamas puts civilians on top of military targets that Israel is going to bomb, it hides military targets amongst civilians (one of the high profile dead kids from 2009 turned out to be from a fragment of a rocket thrown up when Israel hit an ammo dump) and it uses the protected things for military purposes.

 

[arkirk]

Gaza is a free fire zone. Israel has never shown a reluctance to target civilians when it suited their purposes. It's not really a case of Israel failing to identify their target and creating civilian casualties, they aren't concerned with collateral damage, because there is no collateral in Gaza.

The IDF has killed Americans when it was in their interest. Why would they be concerned with the death of a few boys playing soccer on the beach?

Try again.

Israel doesn't target civilians.

Hamas puts civilians on top of military targets that Israel is going to bomb, it hides military targets amongst civilians (one of the high profile dead kids from 2009 turned out to be from a fragment of a rocket thrown up when Israel hit an ammo dump) and it uses the protected things for military purposes.

Get over it. What do you think asymmetrical means? IDF butchery in Gaza has been so general, there is no way to separate these things. You know that is true and just keep harping on something that isn't really an issue. The issue is the mass civilian slaughter the IDF has engaged in. The issue is the slaughter of children. The Israelis kill the kids. I have never heard of Hamas murdering any Palestinian kids. NEVER.

 

[Bronzeage]

Gaza is a free fire zone. Israel has never shown a reluctance to target civilians when it suited their purposes. It's not really a case of Israel failing to identify their target and creating civilian casualties, they aren't concerned with collateral damage, because there is no collateral in Gaza.

The IDF has killed Americans when it was in their interest. Why would they be concerned with the death of a few boys playing soccer on the beach?

Try again.

Israel doesn't target civilians.

Hamas puts civilians on top of military targets that Israel is going to bomb, it hides military targets amongst civilians (one of the high profile dead kids from 2009 turned out to be from a fragment of a rocket thrown up when Israel hit an ammo dump) and it uses the protected things for military purposes.

Then how did so many civilians get killed? The urban area of Gaza is a crowded place. Civilians were targeted because that's where civilians live. It's easy to say "Israel doesn't target civilians," but it's plain that they don't care how many are killed.

Israel has worked themselves into a corner, where killing civilians is their only option. There's no point in saying it isn't so, or worse, it was all for a good reason.

 

[Jayjay]

And note what this thread is about--that "beach" was a Hamas-only military facility.

Only if you believe the Israeli report to be honest. Which probably isn't the case. It should be a clue about its dishonesty that a bunch of random kids can easily get to this alleged "Hamas-only military facility". It's more likely that IDF used some prior Hamas presence in the harbor as evidence that this is a military facility, and exaggerated that the entire beach therefore was such.

 

[Jayjay]

Try again.

Israel doesn't target civilians.

Hamas puts civilians on top of military targets that Israel is going to bomb, it hides military targets amongst civilians (one of the high profile dead kids from 2009 turned out to be from a fragment of a rocket thrown up when Israel hit an ammo dump) and it uses the protected things for military purposes.

Get over it. What do you think asymmetrical means? IDF butchery in Gaza has been so general, there is no way to separate these things. You know that is true and just keep harping on something that isn't really an issue. The issue is the mass civilian slaughter the IDF has engaged in. The issue is the slaughter of children. The Israelis kill the kids. I have never heard of Hamas murdering any Palestinian kids. NEVER.

Then you must not read the news:

‘Misfired Hamas rockets’ killed children in Gaza

A rocket salvo that killed 11 Gazan children and hit a hospital on a Muslim religious holiday was the work of Palestinian militants hitting their own people, a report has found, in a damning indictment of Hamas’s conduct during last summer’s war with Israel.

The explosion at the Al-Shati refugee camp on July 28, which killed the children buying sweets on the first day of Eid ul Fitr, was the result of misfired rockets by Hamas, Amnesty International concluded.

Of course, you could say that Hamas didn't intend to hit the children, but isn't that the same as Israels defense in the beach incident?

 

[arkirk]

In Gaza, it is next to impossible to separate Hamas and civilians because there just plain isn't that much space and even less under roof these days. I am not a believer in Hamas's religious motivations. On the other side, I feel Hamas needs to be involved in any settlement of the conflict. To some extent, Palestinians probably feel loyalty to Hamas because it does provide some support for the people as well as launch rockets and dig tunnels. They obviously had an accident. I am sure they were not attempting to kill Palestinian children.

 

[Jayjay]

In Gaza, it is next to impossible to separate Hamas and civilians because there just plain isn't that much space and even less under roof these days. I am not a believer in Hamas's religious motivations. On the other side, I feel Hamas needs to be involved in any settlement of the conflict. To some extent, Palestinians probably feel loyalty to Hamas because it does provide some support for the people as well as launch rockets and dig tunnels. They obviously had an accident. I am sure they were not attempting to kill Palestinian children.

And I'm pretty sure that IDF was not attempting to kill Palestinian children either.

 

[untermensche]

In Gaza, it is next to impossible to separate Hamas and civilians because there just plain isn't that much space and even less under roof these days. I am not a believer in Hamas's religious motivations. On the other side, I feel Hamas needs to be involved in any settlement of the conflict. To some extent, Palestinians probably feel loyalty to Hamas because it does provide some support for the people as well as launch rockets and dig tunnels. They obviously had an accident. I am sure they were not attempting to kill Palestinian children.

And I'm pretty sure that IDF was not attempting to kill Palestinian children either.

The IDF uses weapons in a manner it knows will kill many civilians. Just as the US does.

There is little moral distinction between killing intentionally and doing things you know will kill many innocents.

IMO knowing you will kill many civilians and not caring is worse. In that case humans are reduced to insects.

At least when somebody says they are going to kill innocents intentionally they recognize the nature of their crime and the nature of their victims.