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Not *all* men

Women tend to have a lot of men they have to worry about.
That does not justify stereotyping of all men. It certainly doesn't justify attacking anyone who dares call you out of said stereotyping.

Derec, you are not an idiot. Why do you continually derail discussion to talk about the minority position in any statistic. You are the greatest exemplar of the "not all men" meme. Stereotyping is when a negative minority is held to represent the positive majority. The "not all men" meme is calling out the people like yourself who would rather use their brains to obfuscate the discussion than to try for a fairer society.

Generalisations are always wrong.

Bullshit.

Generalisations are what happens when you identify a problem that exists most of the time. It's called a generalisation because it happens with such a frequency as to make it an issue and statistically relevant to generalise across the population.

Saying that it shouldn't be addressed because exceptions exist makes you part of the problem.
I am in no doubt that the vast majority women experience a lot of sexism. But that in no way implies that the majority of men are sexist. If a woman interacts with dozens of men each day in some respect, then it only takes a few percent of sexist men to mean she will encounter sexism every day. So in that case, the generalisation that most woman experience sexism most days would be true, but the generalisation that most men are sexist would be false.

Of course, it may be that the majority of men are sexist (and in some societies, they probably are!), but that can't be deduced solely from an analysis of how prevalent the experience of sexism is to the victims.
 
I wonder... is our tendency to give in to negative stereotyping of the opposite gender caused by our personal experiences with members of the opposite gender? Could a woman who had a series of disappointment in her relationships with men become so bitter that she will view the entire gender negatively? Same applying to a man who had a series of disappointing relationships.

As far as I am concerned, I tend to acknowledge the individuality of each person I will have a rapport with. They do not get dumped into a stereotype. My best friend has been and continues to be a guy. We met in College in our country (France) and we have basically been family to each other over the past 35 years. It is possible he represents the brother I never had and wanted to have. It is also possible that ,despite of his downfalls, my father was (male figure) a more functional and stable image than my mother could ever be. That relates to the fact that I tend to prefer the company of men.

I also tend to distance myself from people (of both genders) who tend to be negative. The moment they engage into repeated negative stereotyping, I will not enjoy their company. It just sounds so narrow minded to me. So "tunnel vision". I also think that all those negative thoughts about men in general or women in general are simply not uplifting thoughts to dwell on. Life is way too short to dwell on thoughts which increase our self imposed states of mental misery.
 
Women tend to have a lot of men they have to worry about.
That does not justify stereotyping of all men. It certainly doesn't justify attacking anyone who dares call you out of said stereotyping.

Derec, you are not an idiot. Why do you continually derail discussion to talk about the minority position in any statistic. You are the greatest exemplar of the "not all men" meme. Stereotyping is when a negative minority is held to represent the positive majority. The "not all men" meme is calling out the people like yourself who would rather use their brains to obfuscate the discussion than to try for a fairer society.

Generalisations are always wrong.

Bullshit.

Generalisations are what happens when you identify a problem that exists most of the time. It's called a generalisation because it happens with such a frequency as to make it an issue and statistically relevant to generalise across the population.

Saying that it shouldn't be addressed because exceptions exist makes you part of the problem.
I am in no doubt that the vast majority women experience a lot of sexism. But that in no way implies that the majority of men are sexist. If a woman interacts with dozens of men each day in some respect, then it only takes a few percent of sexist men to mean she will encounter sexism every day. So in that case, the generalisation that most woman experience sexism most days would be true, but the generalisation that most men are sexist would be false.

Of course, it may be that the majority of men are sexist (and in some societies, they probably are!), but that can't be deduced solely from an analysis of how prevalent the experience of sexism is to the victims.
Erick, it is possible I have been blissfully oblivious to sexism in the US.;) Taking into account though that I have lived in societies where sexism targeting the female gender was overt and obvious and basically institutionalized as a "norm". Living in Campania for 6 years (region of Naples, Italy), the local traditions and culture were extremely sexist. It remains a male dominated culture with a huge dose of "machoism". However, in Sicily, the "nonna" or eldest female (usually grand mother though it could be a great aunt) is highly respected as the matriarch. But she is still the typical homemaker, the one who passes on recipes and trains the younger women into the "art" of being a good and subservient wife. Very often in sexist societies, the elderly women are responsible for perpetuating traditions which cause the stagnation of younger women into a very limited and narrow minded gender role. A role dedicated to please and serve men and..... don't they dare not be happy in that role!

And of course the absolute extreme of women being viewed as chattel and treated as personal property which , unfortunately, was predominant when we lived in Sub Sahara Africa and Northern Africa.



I do not get a sense of sexism in the US as exacerbated as I saw it in a variety of nations where I have resided. Maybe that is why it does not seem to affect me living in Western nations.

On the other end, I consider it sexist for some women to expect that their mate shower them with material giving. When the value of a man is reduced to how many trips he will take to a jewelry store, I find it sexist.
 
I wonder... is our tendency to give in to negative stereotyping of the opposite gender caused by our personal experiences with members of the opposite gender? Could a woman who had a series of disappointment in her relationships with men become so bitter that she will view the entire gender negatively? Same applying to a man who had a series of disappointing relationships.
It would be surprising if that wasn't the case.
 
Stereotyping all men is just fine, and anyone who is against it is sexist. [/PROGRESSOAUTHORITARIAN]

ProgressoAuthoritarian just sounds like a new flavor of tomato sauce. Whatever happened to "feminazi"?
 
I am in no doubt that the vast majority women experience a lot of sexism. But that in no way implies that the majority of men are sexist.

Sexism doesn't require sexist intent. A firm in which all behaviour is expected to rigidly adhere to a particular standard pattern, irrespective of gender, may still be sexist if that standard is normal for men and requires effort to achieve for women.

One reason why the #not all men# meme is so prevalent is that people confuse sexism with misogyny. We need to get it clear that sexism is not negative thoughts about women, its about behaving in a way that doesn't extend them equal treatment and opportunity, irrespective of your feelings or attitudes on the matter.
 
Sexism doesn't require sexist intent. A firm in which all behaviour is expected to rigidly adhere to a particular standard pattern, irrespective of gender, may still be sexist if that standard is normal for men and requires effort to achieve for women.
What kind of patterns are you talking about? Could you give an example of this, plus a proposed fix?
 
Sexism doesn't require sexist intent. A firm in which all behaviour is expected to rigidly adhere to a particular standard pattern, irrespective of gender, may still be sexist if that standard is normal for men and requires effort to achieve for women.
What kind of patterns are you talking about? Could you give an example of this, plus a proposed fix?


Ok, let's a take a firm that values a number of personal qualities. It values dedication to the company, the ability to get on will with people at work, people who will stand up for what they believe in, drive change in the company, has a calm and consistent demeanour, shows personal modesty and refinement, and gets on well personally with the director. All good stirring stuff.

Now let's supposed that they measure dedication by long working hours and a willingness to stay late at short notice, and that they measure the ability to socialise by how willing you are to go on a night of hard drinking after work. That 'standing up for what you believe in' involves participating in dominance contests with other managers and petty points scoring, drive change means being aggressive with others to get what you want, that the company's lower hallway has floor mounted heating vents, and the upper hallway has a glass floor, and that the director spends his lunchtime at a strip club.

So what you end up with a firm that systematically discriminates against people who have family or childcare responsibilities outside work, don't have a large capacity for alcohol, are well practiced at otherwise pointless dominance contests, is aggressive with others, wear dresses, and don't enjoy titty bars. Perhaps unsurprisingly, women don't do very well in the firm. But the problem isn't that the men in the firm personally dislike or personally disfavour women in some way.
 
Sexism doesn't require sexist intent. A firm in which all behaviour is expected to rigidly adhere to a particular standard pattern, irrespective of gender, may still be sexist if that standard is normal for men and requires effort to achieve for women.
What kind of patterns are you talking about? Could you give an example of this, plus a proposed fix?


Ok, let's a take a firm that values a number of personal qualities. It values dedication to the company, the ability to get on will with people at work, people who will stand up for what they believe in, drive change in the company, has a calm and consistent demeanour, shows personal modesty and refinement, and gets on well personally with the director. All good stirring stuff.

Now let's supposed that they measure dedication by long working hours and a willingness to stay late at short notice, and that they measure the ability to socialise by how willing you are to go on a night of hard drinking after work. That 'standing up for what you believe in' involves participating in dominance contests with other managers and petty points scoring, drive change means being aggressive with others to get what you want, that the company's lower hallway has floor mounted heating vents, and the upper hallway has a glass floor, and that the director spends his lunchtime at a strip club.

So what you end up with a firm that systematically discriminates against people who have family or childcare responsibilities outside work, don't have a large capacity for alcohol, are well practiced at otherwise pointless dominance contests, is aggressive with others, wear dresses, and don't enjoy titty bars. Perhaps unsurprisingly, women don't do very well in the firm. But the problem isn't that the men in the firm personally dislike or personally disfavour women in some way.
Thanks. I didn't know what you were talking about, but that clears it up.
 
It's easy to deal with the "all men" fallacy. I just say, "A lot of men do a lot things. Right now, all you have to worry about is one man and what he's going to do."

If that were true. The majority of politicians are men. The majority of law enforcement are men. The majority of soldiers are men. The majority of criminals are men.

Women tend to have a lot of men they have to worry about.

The vast majority of men are not politicians; the vast majority of men are not in law enforcement; the vast majority of men are not soldiers; the vast majority of men are not criminals.

OK, but let's stick to the subject. The vast majority of politicians ARE men, the vast majority of criminals ARE men, the vast majority of soldiers ARE men, the vast majority of law enforcement ARE men.
 
Anyone else find it ironic that the objections to the "not *all* men" meme basically boils down to "well, not all men do that!"

eta: And in case it isn't clear "not *all* men" is about men appropriating the conversation to talk about not all men doing something when the topic was about issues women are dealing with?
 
It is as unfair of women to stereotype men as it is for men to stereotype women. The problems women have are the same problems women have.

Both reinforce magical thinking, and both are bad. The not-all-men response is as valid as a woman taking objection to a man saying 'I hate how women always expect me to back down even when I am right, or else they get all emotional'. Women don't all do that. Even as a gay man who GENERALLY (note that word) doesn't have much interest in the gender, I don't say stuff like 'I don't really like women' because that is insulting to both myself and women. By throwing that little caveat, I reinforce that each person is different.

Sweeping generalizations are bad for everyone, and even if you are blind about the effects of entrenching negative stereotypes, it still hurts your ability to see people rather than genders. Every Time anyone does it, they should be slapped, and most men do it more than most women.
 
Now let's supposed that they measure dedication by long working hours and a willingness to stay late at short notice, and that they measure the ability to socialise by how willing you are to go on a night of hard drinking after work.
I do not see how that is sexist at all. Many jobs require, quite naturally due to nature of the business, that employees put in a lot of hours when necessary (which can be often). They reward that with appropriate pay. Both men and women who can't or don't want to make that commitment should seek jobs that fit their needs and accept lower pay for the privilege of working fewer hours as well.
Same with drinking - if you are the kind of person who doesn't want that kind of thing you may not be a good fit for the company culture, be you a man or a woman. On the other hand, if you are a man or a woman who enjoys that kind of camaraderie you will be less happy in a job where that is not part of after-work socialization.

and that the director spends his lunchtime at a strip club.
I thought those good old days were long over due to radical feminist pressure. Hell these days even a woman overhearing a PG-13 joke will get you fired, see Donglegate:( [a case where "not all women" disclaimer is appropriate I guess ...]
 
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It's easy to deal with the "all men" fallacy. I just say, "A lot of men do a lot things. Right now, all you have to worry about is one man and what he's going to do."

If that were true. The majority of politicians are men. The majority of law enforcement are men. The majority of soldiers are men. The majority of criminals are men.

Women tend to have a lot of men they have to worry about.

The vast majority of men are not politicians; the vast majority of men are not in law enforcement; the vast majority of men are not soldiers; the vast majority of men are not criminals.

OK, but let's stick to the subject. The vast majority of politicians ARE men, the vast majority of criminals ARE men, the vast majority of soldiers ARE men, the vast majority of law enforcement ARE men.

All true. But what possible use is this information?

It doesn't help in recognising politicians, criminals, soldiers or members of the law enforcement community.

It doesn't help separate politicians from criminals, or from soldiers; it is a singularly useless set of facts.

Pick a person at random, and the chances are very, very slim that that person will be in one of those four categories.

If the random person is a man, the chance is still very, very low - a tiny bit higher, yes; but not enough to be helpful in any kind of decision making, or avoidance strategy, or marketing scheme, or really, anything.

If the random person is a woman, the chance that she is one of those four things again remains low; and again this is not helpful, because the change is not enough to make useful predictions or choices.

Why does it matter at all?

I am a man; I am not a politician, a criminal, a soldier nor a policeman. Does this information come as a surprise? It is true of almost every man you are likely to meet.

I don't assume that every woman I meet is likely a primary school teacher or a stripper or a florist. But most strippers are women. Most florists are women. Most primary school teachers are women.

The question I am left with here is 'so fucking what?'
 
Anyone else find it ironic that the objections to the "not *all* men" meme basically boils down to "well, not all men do that!"

eta: And in case it isn't clear "not *all* men" is about men appropriating the conversation to talk about not all men doing something when the topic was about issues women are dealing with?

I made it quite clear that my objection was "what you describe is not part of the definition of 'man'."

By the definition provided by the article, some women are men. And when you add things to the definition that aren't part of it, you're going to get answers like "that doesn't apply to all men."
 
Sexism doesn't require sexist intent. A firm in which all behaviour is expected to rigidly adhere to a particular standard pattern, irrespective of gender, may still be sexist if that standard is normal for men and requires effort to achieve for women.
What kind of patterns are you talking about? Could you give an example of this, plus a proposed fix?

Ok, let's a take a firm that values a number of personal qualities. It values dedication to the company, the ability to get on will with people at work, people who will stand up for what they believe in, drive change in the company, has a calm and consistent demeanour, shows personal modesty and refinement, and gets on well personally with the director. All good stirring stuff.

Now let's supposed that they measure dedication by long working hours and a willingness to stay late at short notice, and that they measure the ability to socialise by how willing you are to go on a night of hard drinking after work. That 'standing up for what you believe in' involves participating in dominance contests with other managers and petty points scoring, drive change means being aggressive with others to get what you want, that the company's lower hallway has floor mounted heating vents, and the upper hallway has a glass floor, and that the director spends his lunchtime at a strip club.

So what you end up with a firm that systematically discriminates against people who have family or childcare responsibilities outside work, don't have a large capacity for alcohol, are well practiced at otherwise pointless dominance contests, is aggressive with others, wear dresses, and don't enjoy titty bars. Perhaps unsurprisingly, women don't do very well in the firm. But the problem isn't that the men in the firm personally dislike or personally disfavour women in some way.
(Now that I'm in front of a PC and can type a full reply:)

What you have described is a set of criteria that is partly reasonable, and partly unreasonable and sexist.

It's reasonable for a firm to reward employee who make personal sacrifices such as working late at short notice, because the company can benefit from that;
It's unreasonable for a company to reward employees for partying with the team after hours;
It's unreasonable, and even stupid, to reward petty displays of dominance and points scoring;
It's reasonable for a company to value aggressiveness on the condition that it is channelled into something beneficial, like winning a sale or sorting out an unco-operative supplier, rather than bullying fellow team members;
It's reasonable to have floor vents that blow up hot air; it's unreasonable to prevent women from wearing trousers to work in the same office.
Same goes for glass floors (tried doing a few Google searches to find an image of that kind of architecture, but couldn't find any examples of this).
And lastly, I'm confused: who, besides the director, is expected to enjoy the titty bar? Is the implication that he conducts lunchtime meetings there as well?

Some companies, such as Fuji Xerox, have found that flexible, generous working arrangements (Flex-Time) for their staff results in higher productivity. But this is not necessarily true for all businesses. It's not sexist to reward personal sacrifices by your employees if it can be shown to boost productivity. The fact that more men than women are able and willing to be that kind of employee doesn't not mean that the company has a moral imperative to change it's business practices in order to bring in more women.

Getting back to your original point, now that you've clarified your meaning. It's rarely correctly to describe something as normal for men and difficult to achieve for women. Both men and women are diverse groups; it is more correct to talk in terms of how many people from either sex can do something. For example, more men than women can lift a 25kg parcel, which means that more men than women can work as couriers. Using a non-gender example, Asian men are less likely to have the height required to play élite basketball, but it is not reasonable to call recruiters racist for that.

Your example highlights that standards which have a disparate impact on each of the sexes are not necessarily sexist, although they often are because those standards are unreasonable and unjustifiable.
 
Anyone else find it ironic that the objections to the "not *all* men" meme basically boils down to "well, not all men do that!"

eta: And in case it isn't clear "not *all* men" is about men appropriating the conversation to talk about not all men doing something when the topic was about issues women are dealing with?

That certainly is not clear given that the article begins by making sexist bigoted claims about all men via assertions about the defining features of men (note defining features apply to all members of a category), then chastises the listener who is rational enough to understand and object the objective falsehood of the statement just made.
 
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