The REAL minimum wage

[bleubird]

Just get get rid of the tip up to MW stupid state laws.And have a higher fed MW.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I fail to see how supposed liberals can support forced unionization without incurring some serious cognitive dissonance. I also fail to see relevance to the topic at hand.

If you do not wish to feed yourself than you should pay to have someone else to feed you!

Uhm, nobody is expecting free restaurant food (although Jamais Winston seems to expect free soda at Burger King). The question is how the paying-for-it should be organized.

do you ever bump your head when you are jumping to conclusions?

 

[untermensche]

Isn't the point of a minimum wage pretty much "If you lack skills, this is the wage you get paid"?

No waiter or waitress lacks skills.

They have common skills, and can easily be replaced.

It is your ease of replacement that determines your wages (under capitalism). It has nothing to do with the job or the skills involved.

You can get many people that are able to clean the bathroom. That doesn't mean a clean bathroom isn't worth very much and it doesn't mean the people who do it shouldn't be paid a lot.

 

[DBT]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.

Then there would be a *LOT* of people who could never find a job.

A lot of workers get paid more than $2O per hour. The average national wage comes to more than $20ph. Business is not going to collapse because a small percentage of MW workers get a livable return for their time, effort and contribution to society. A bit of crying and gnashing of teeth and adjustments are made, business as usual, the World goes on, but with an improved standard of living for those at the bottom of the heap.

Why do you think $0/hr is better than $7.25/hr?

I don't think that is the case. As I said above, a business, if profitable, is not going to close its doors because they have to pay their employees a wage that supports a modest lifestyle in return for the essential service of running a business rendered by their employees. In a way, employees can be their own worst enemy by agreeing to work for a rate that cannot even sustain a reasonable but modest lifestyle.

They are too willing to sell their time, and their therefore their lives, far too cheaply.

 

[RavenSky]

IMO, no, he isn't providing a MW service that I couldn't do myself. And fitting me for shoes is certainly something I don't require additional service for.

Bars, restaurants, valet, a few examples where we go to have something done FOR us (by MW workers) that I choose not to do for myself. Otherwise, I'd jump behind the bar and make my own drink, fire up the fryer and make my own onion rings. Rather, I want to be served (politely and timely) in addition to having someone else do those tasks.

Deeper into the "service" trade are landscapers, house painters, house cleaners, etc. Are they tip worthy? I believe at times they are, though not always expected by society.

You can go into the back of the store, find the shoes you want, then ring them up yourself? Or is it almost exactly like a restaurant worker who takes your order, goes to get your order, makes sure your order meets your expectations, then assists you to pay for your order or directs you to the cashier.

 

[RavenSky]

I'm not aware of any retail job where tipping would make any sense. But wait, what about getting fitted for a wedding dress, or a 3 piece suit?.. to which those employees are typically paid on commissions in addition to their hourly wage, therefore I see no tipping required.

In a certain sense, then, tipping is a form of commission. Paid directly by the customer instead of by the employer.

If the waitress is working on commission, and gets 15% of what she sells, she's gonna work hard to talk folks into a dessert or another drink, work hard to bring back regular customers, and turn over her tables faster...just like if she's working for 15% gratuity.

An imperfect analogy, I'll admit, but a lot of these jobs aren't just service...they're sales jobs.

An analogy that only works with restaurants that automatically add the gratuity to the check

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Most servers do not work at high end restaurants, all servers get stiffed of tips to some extent, and many serving jobs have fluctuating hours.

Average annual income is less that $16,000.00 a year, and saying that's a function of time and not wages makes no difference when wages and hours equal one another.

The fact that the work is part time just makes the increase in the wage even more needed by employees.

And keep this in mind, the corporation that owns Olive Garden is a powerful member of the National Restaurant Association and lobbied hard for the low tipped wage, and their reasoning was they could not afford to pay a higher wage and stay competitive. Yet, Olive Gardens abound in states where the tipped wage and the regular wage are the same, and whereas the wages have tripled per hour, the prices have not.

For whatever reason, blind faith or just blindness, some hold to what they think they heard in an econ 101 class thirty years ago and willfully refuse to see that economic thought is changing as more accurate and more broadly scoped research is performed and published.

Fundamentalist myopia won't stop progress. It may slow it down, but ideas are hard to kill.

 

[Derec]

An analogy that only works with restaurants that automatically add the gratuity to the check

Or adjust the menu price to reflect the need to actually pay their waitstaff. Which it really should be. Tips should be extras, not a source of bulk of the income.

 

[Celldweller]

IMO, no, he isn't providing a MW service that I couldn't do myself. And fitting me for shoes is certainly something I don't require additional service for.

Bars, restaurants, valet, a few examples where we go to have something done FOR us (by MW workers) that I choose not to do for myself. Otherwise, I'd jump behind the bar and make my own drink, fire up the fryer and make my own onion rings. Rather, I want to be served (politely and timely) in addition to having someone else do those tasks.

Deeper into the "service" trade are landscapers, house painters, house cleaners, etc. Are they tip worthy? I believe at times they are, though not always expected by society.

You can go into the back of the store, find the shoes you want, then ring them up yourself? Or is it almost exactly like a restaurant worker who takes your order, goes to get your order, makes sure your order meets your expectations, then assists you to pay for your order or directs you to the cashier.

I whole heartedly see the double standard of the situation, consider me having done a 180 the more I think about it. Home Depot comes to mind as well.

 

[RavenSky]

IMO, no, he isn't providing a MW service that I couldn't do myself. And fitting me for shoes is certainly something I don't require additional service for.

Bars, restaurants, valet, a few examples where we go to have something done FOR us (by MW workers) that I choose not to do for myself. Otherwise, I'd jump behind the bar and make my own drink, fire up the fryer and make my own onion rings. Rather, I want to be served (politely and timely) in addition to having someone else do those tasks.

Deeper into the "service" trade are landscapers, house painters, house cleaners, etc. Are they tip worthy? I believe at times they are, though not always expected by society.

You can go into the back of the store, find the shoes you want, then ring them up yourself? Or is it almost exactly like a restaurant worker who takes your order, goes to get your order, makes sure your order meets your expectations, then assists you to pay for your order or directs you to the cashier.

I whole heartedly see the double standard of the situation, consider me having done a 180 the more I think about it. Home Depot comes to mind as well.

I am currently re-reading "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" for a management training program I am in at work. The author talks highly about the ability to listen and to even revise one's own position in light of input from others. You just reminded me of that

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.

Then there would be a *LOT* of people who could never find a job.

A lot of workers get paid more than $2O per hour. The average national wage comes to more than $20ph. Business is not going to collapse because a small percentage of MW workers get a livable return for their time, effort and contribution to society. A bit of crying and gnashing of teeth and adjustments are made, business as usual, the World goes on, but with an improved standard of living for those at the bottom of the heap.

Why do you think $0/hr is better than $7.25/hr?

I don't think that is the case. As I said above, a business, if profitable, is not going to close its doors because they have to pay their employees a wage that supports a modest lifestyle in return for the essential service of running a business rendered by their employees. In a way, employees can be their own worst enemy by agreeing to work for a rate that cannot even sustain a reasonable but modest lifestyle.

They are too willing to sell their time, and their therefore their lives, far too cheaply.

You're talking about about a 2 1/2x increase in labor costs for the low wage employees.

Thinking of my former employer that would translate into nearly a 50% increase in the final price. How can you think that doing so wouldn't result in quite a drop in sales??

- - - Updated - - -

Most servers do not work at high end restaurants, all servers get stiffed of tips to some extent, and many serving jobs have fluctuating hours.

Average annual income is less that $16,000.00 a year, and saying that's a function of time and not wages makes no difference when wages and hours equal one another.

The fact that the work is part time just makes the increase in the wage even more needed by employees.

You don't understand--they likely want to be part-time--because they're also doing something else like going to school. When you continue to use deceptive data to support your position it shows your position is weak.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.

Then there would be a *LOT* of people who could never find a job.

A lot of workers get paid more than $2O per hour. The average national wage comes to more than $20ph. Business is not going to collapse because a small percentage of MW workers get a livable return for their time, effort and contribution to society. A bit of crying and gnashing of teeth and adjustments are made, business as usual, the World goes on, but with an improved standard of living for those at the bottom of the heap.

Why do you think $0/hr is better than $7.25/hr?

I don't think that is the case. As I said above, a business, if profitable, is not going to close its doors because they have to pay their employees a wage that supports a modest lifestyle in return for the essential service of running a business rendered by their employees. In a way, employees can be their own worst enemy by agreeing to work for a rate that cannot even sustain a reasonable but modest lifestyle.

They are too willing to sell their time, and their therefore their lives, far too cheaply.

You're talking about about a 2 1/2x increase in labor costs for the low wage employees.

Thinking of my former employer that would translate into nearly a 50% increase in the final price. How can you think that doing so wouldn't result in quite a drop in sales??

- - - Updated - - -

Most servers do not work at high end restaurants, all servers get stiffed of tips to some extent, and many serving jobs have fluctuating hours.

Average annual income is less that $16,000.00 a year, and saying that's a function of time and not wages makes no difference when wages and hours equal one another.

The fact that the work is part time just makes the increase in the wage even more needed by employees.

You don't understand--they likely want to be part-time--because they're also doing something else like going to school. When you continue to use deceptive data to support your position it shows your position is weak.

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

 

[DBT]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

We need adequate diet in order to stay alive and healthy. We cannot sleep under bridges in order to work for a pittance., we need accommodation. Given market prices, this all costs a certain amount of money. The fact is we have needs, like it or not.

What is the point of working full time for a rate that does not even meet your basic need for food, accommodation, clothing, transport, etc?

It is simply not viable.

Just as a business that cannot meet its own running costs or generate a profit without expecting its employees to work for an unsustainable rate, is an unsustainable business.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

yes Loren, pay should be based, in part, on need.

A job market populated with positions that don't afford wages that support employees, isn't any good to the employees.

a business that affords not enough profit for the owner(s) to support themselves isn't any good to the owners.

So far you seem to never have a problem with the second statement but almost always seem to have a problem with the first and you appear to wish to go further and impose the first in order to avoid the second.

If this is not your position, please explain.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

We need adequate diet in order to stay alive and healthy. We cannot sleep under bridges in order to work for a pittance., we need accommodation. Given market prices, this all costs a certain amount of money. The fact is we have needs, like it or not.

What is the point of working full time for a rate that does not even meet your basic need for food, accommodation, clothing, transport, etc?

It is simply not viable.

Just as a business that cannot meet its own running costs or generate a profit without expecting its employees to work for an unsustainable rate, is an unsustainable business.

You're not addressing my point.

- - - Updated - - -

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

yes Loren, pay should be based, in part, on need.

A job market populated with positions that don't afford wages that support employees, isn't any good to the employees.

a business that affords not enough profit for the owner(s) to support themselves isn't any good to the owners.

So far you seem to never have a problem with the second statement but almost always seem to have a problem with the first and you appear to wish to go further and impose the first in order to avoid the second.

If this is not your position, please explain.

So you're saying my taking extra classes means my boss needs to pay me a higher rate?????

 

[J842P]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

yes Loren, pay should be based, in part, on need.

A job market populated with positions that don't afford wages that support employees, isn't any good to the employees.

a business that affords not enough profit for the owner(s) to support themselves isn't any good to the owners.

So far you seem to never have a problem with the second statement but almost always seem to have a problem with the first and you appear to wish to go further and impose the first in order to avoid the second.

If this is not your position, please explain.

Well, that's not really fair because Loren hasn't argued that business profits should be set at some minimum level by the government.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

We need adequate diet in order to stay alive and healthy. We cannot sleep under bridges in order to work for a pittance., we need accommodation. Given market prices, this all costs a certain amount of money. The fact is we have needs, like it or not.

What is the point of working full time for a rate that does not even meet your basic need for food, accommodation, clothing, transport, etc?

It is simply not viable.

Just as a business that cannot meet its own running costs or generate a profit without expecting its employees to work for an unsustainable rate, is an unsustainable business.

You're not addressing my point.

- - - Updated - - -

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

yes Loren, pay should be based, in part, on need.

A job market populated with positions that don't afford wages that support employees, isn't any good to the employees.

a business that affords not enough profit for the owner(s) to support themselves isn't any good to the owners.

So far you seem to never have a problem with the second statement but almost always seem to have a problem with the first and you appear to wish to go further and impose the first in order to avoid the second.

If this is not your position, please explain.

So you're saying my taking extra classes means my boss needs to pay me a higher rate?????

I'm asking you a question that you don't want to answer.

As for your classes, ask your boss.

(isn't 12 hours or above fulltime so taking more hours doesn't cost you more money?)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm asking you a question that you don't want to answer.

As for your classes, ask your boss.

(isn't 12 hours or above fulltime so taking more hours doesn't cost you more money?)

I'm showing you what's wrong with your position rather than simply providing an answer you would disagree with.

And you once again missed the point. It's not that taking 18 hours costs more than 12 hours (it does somewhat, books and the like) but that taking 18 hours means less time available for work. Thus you need a higher hourly rate to make the same total money.

 

[DBT]

Loren

If I'm working part time I will need the higher wage all the more because I can't make more hours to make out the money I need.


This ain't deep and you ain't stupid

Just wrong, as usual.

The problem is that you think pay should be based on need.

So I should get paid more per hour because I'm taking 18 credit hours rather than 12 credit hours?

We need adequate diet in order to stay alive and healthy. We cannot sleep under bridges in order to work for a pittance., we need accommodation. Given market prices, this all costs a certain amount of money. The fact is we have needs, like it or not.

What is the point of working full time for a rate that does not even meet your basic need for food, accommodation, clothing, transport, etc?

It is simply not viable.

Just as a business that cannot meet its own running costs or generate a profit without expecting its employees to work for an unsustainable rate, is an unsustainable business.

You're not addressing my point.

The point I'm trying to make is: a pay rate that do not support the basic needs of food, clothing, accommodation, transport, for full time employees cannot be sustainable. Something has to give. Some may go into dept, some may turn to crime. Such a situation is not good for the employees on low incomes, or society at large.

You claim that business cannot afford to pay, and maybe a percentage of struggling companies cannot...but how many can? How many business owners, directors, managers, etc, take advantage of low incomes and simply take the profit while employees struggle to make ends meet?

That is the reason for MW laws, to protect the most vulnerable from exploitation.