Nostalgia: Jim Bakker

[Trausti]

I was a kid when the PTL scandal broke. Tammy Faye Bakker's painted face is forever etched in the mind. The Jessica Hahn Playboy spread was worth a look. I had a great dislike of televangelists, as part of my family was highly religious (God-paying PTL members). They directed that irrationality against my listening to heavy metal, I mean, Satan, music. Anyway, I would have presumed after all this time that Jim Bakker had croaked. Well, I guess not. He made comments about ISIS which the Google news trawler happened to catch: https://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/televangelist-jim-bakker-extreme-weather-patterns-are-the-spirit-of-isis-in-america/

Apparently, he is alive and well and up to different schemes. This one is highly amusing:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOH37W0jPpA[/YOUTUBE]

So for those of a certain age who wonder whatever happened to that preacher guy with the annoying wife, now you know.

 

[Underseer]

Holy fucking fucknuts, Jim Bakker still has a job? People still send him money?

 

[DBT]

Given that there is a sucker born every minute, there is never a shortage of work for a good shyster.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Yeah, he's been hawking his survivalist schtick for awhile now. Kind of funny really. If you're going to be caught up in the rapture, what use will you have of 5 years worth of shitty macaroni and cheese?

A reporter bought some of it out of curiosity.

His wares are awful and incredibly overpriced. I figure his strategy is that if he at least offers something for the money then he can get away with fleecing people.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You really don't need the funky music or the editing. Jim Bakker's kind of crazy needs no help.

 

[Bronzeage]

Jim and Tammy are an interesting case study of what happens when a very small world gets stretched to cover a new one. It's something like a balloon with a pattern printed on the rubber. You can't read it until it's inflated. If it's over inflated, the pattern gets thin and you can see through it. Inflate it a little more and it all disappears.

The Bakkers took their small Pentecostal congregation social structure and tried to stretch it to be a worldwide corporation. Part of the Pentecostal culture is that the church supports the pastor and his family. Most Pentecostal churches are very small and pastor is a part time job. When a Pentecostal congregation gets large enough to pay a preacher well, there really is no social structure which limits excess. The Pentecostals are pretty much a blue collar culture, so wealth is seen as a sign of God's blessing. A wealthy person must be a good person. Everyone wants the preacher to be blessed.

All of this works on a small scale, where true excess is not really available.

The other element which gets people in trouble is the idea that the minister is burdened with everyone else's salvation. The means he is always under a lot of stress. Beyond that, he maybe the only man in the church who wears a suit and tie. He probably wears cologne, as well. This sets him apart from the other men of the church and the women of the church can see the difference.

When the concept of preacher as ideal man is combined with the subservient female thing, it's inevitable there will be sex scandals. There will be women who see it as an act of self sacrifice. Her honor and virtue go on the altar for the good of the congregation. There will be preachers who expect a little sacrifice. That's what Jim Bakker. He was used to willing women who presented themselves for service.

When you're the head of a multi-national corporation, you don't have the kind of close contact with your congregation, like in a small church. There isn't time or opportunity. It's very easy for signals to be missed and you think she's in your office to lighten your burden and she thinks you're a rapist.

The small church thing was what finally destroyed the Bakker's Empire. The preacher of a small Pentecostal church owns very little. His house is owned by the church and it's part of his pay. When Jim and Tammy started building a 22 room parsonage, it was the same. When they had five such parsonages, the World Wide Church of God, was the owner of record. This included the furniture and all their cars.

When the scandal broke, and Jim was defrocked, the Bakkers were suddenly homeless.

There is a stark contrast to this scenario.

Jimmy Swaggart was also a Pentecostal minister who managed to grow his small church into a mega church televangelist operation. When his scandal broke and the Church Elders revoked his credentials, they were surprised to learn that Swaggart's church and property was owned by him, personally, not by the church corporation. He just severed his official ties with the World Wide Church of God and kept operating.

 

[ideologyhunter]

In the 80's, PTL ran on a local station at 6a.m. I used to watch it while I got ready for work -- it was much funnier than some old sitcom rerun that I could've put on. Jesus, were they nuts; where to begin. Tammy's god-awful country diva singing. Jim coming off like an 8th grader. Their sidekick, Henry Something-or-Other. Their retarded guests, like Dale Evans.
Barbara Walters did a recap of the PTL scandal a few weeks ago -- she showed Jim on his cable TV show (it plays on no station I get.) He now has a Santa Claus beard, is almost unrecognizable, and is preaching an End Times gospel that is as shrill and mindless as that of any street corner psychopath. Then came the clincher: Walters showed some of the end times products he's hawking, both on TV and on some miserable website. One item for food stockpiling was called Jim's Picnic Favorites, I believe. Basically a big box of preserved food for Christian nutcases, for $100. Same shell game, different gospel pitch.

 

[thebeave]

Funny how three (at least) of the biggest Christian scam artists of the '80's managed to make a successful comeback. Peter Popoff (undone by The Amazing Randi), Jimmy Swaggert (undone by his dick) and Jim Bakker (undone by his dick and financial scams). At the time, I would have guessed they would end up asking "Would you like fries with that?" instead of "What would Jesus Do?", but they all seem to be back making millions. Just goes to show, there's sucker born every minute.

Kinda feel bad about Tammy Fae, though. As comical looking and naive as she was, apparently she was a pretty nice and generous person inside. I think she was manipulated by husband Jim.

 

[funinspace]

I doubt Bakker is making big bucks, but it is probably a sweeter deal than flipping burgers, whatever his cut after his backers get their share...And it is right up his skill set, selling BS; and it plays well on the wingnut circuit.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2752391/Jailed-televangelist-accused-rapist-Jim-Bakker-business-hawking-survivalist-kits-including-padded-clothing-buckets-beans-enemas.html

The disgraced 74-year-old pastor, who served five years of an original 45-year prison sentence for fraud and conspiracy, has also got a daily TV broadcast that airs on various Christian TV stations. On it, he's promoting his Morningside Church – a Christian retreat and retirement community set on 600 acres of land near Branson, Missouri.
Of course, Bakker doesn't technically own Morningside. He still owes the IRS more than $6 million in taxes he neglected to pay in the 1980s.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Funny how three (at least) of the biggest Christian scam artists of the '80's managed to make a successful comeback. Peter Popoff (undone by The Amazing Randi), Jimmy Swaggert (undone by his dick) and Jim Bakker (undone by his dick and financial scams). At the time, I would have guessed they would end up asking "Would you like fries with that?" instead of "What would Jesus Do?", but they all seem to be back making millions. Just goes to show, there's sucker born every minute.

Kinda feel bad about Tammy Fae, though. As comical looking and naive as she was, apparently she was a pretty nice and generous person inside. I think she was manipulated by husband Jim.

Yeah, but at least she did manage to go mainstream and did salvage some of her dignity from that fiasco.

As for the rest, yeah. Jimmy Swaggart was screwing a hooker with a 9 year old daughter... suffice it to say he communicated sexual fantasies about the 9 year old. Yet he's back, and he's brought his son with him. Unbelievable.

Bakker's a trip too. He was so pathetic and so downtrodden, it's amazing that anyone would ever take a chance on the guy again. But it's what he does. He has enough of a certain kind of charisma that appeals to enough people to keep him afloat. And I think that's the key here. Charisma sells. We look back on Hitler now and hear nothing but a monster, but back then, the dude was a rockstar without the music.

And look at Joel Osteen now. He's got Matthew McConaughey's voice and a face and build that's as threatening as 12 week old Labrador retriever. The guy could stand on that stage and tell those people just about any goddamn thing and they'd suck it up like cheesecake. If he wanted to, he could turn that crowd into a Jew hating mob without every altering the tone of his voice or uttering the words "Hate" or "Jew."

 

[Bronzeage]

Funny how three (at least) of the biggest Christian scam artists of the '80's managed to make a successful comeback. Peter Popoff (undone by The Amazing Randi), Jimmy Swaggert (undone by his dick) and Jim Bakker (undone by his dick and financial scams). At the time, I would have guessed they would end up asking "Would you like fries with that?" instead of "What would Jesus Do?", but they all seem to be back making millions. Just goes to show, there's sucker born every minute.

Kinda feel bad about Tammy Fae, though. As comical looking and naive as she was, apparently she was a pretty nice and generous person inside. I think she was manipulated by husband Jim.

Yeah, but at least she did manage to go mainstream and did salvage some of her dignity from that fiasco.

As for the rest, yeah. Jimmy Swaggart was screwing a hooker with a 9 year old daughter... suffice it to say he communicated sexual fantasies about the 9 year old. Yet he's back, and he's brought his son with him. Unbelievable.

Bakker's a trip too. He was so pathetic and so downtrodden, it's amazing that anyone would ever take a chance on the guy again. But it's what he does. He has enough of a certain kind of charisma that appeals to enough people to keep him afloat. And I think that's the key here. Charisma sells. We look back on Hitler now and hear nothing but a monster, but back then, the dude was a rockstar without the music.

And look at Joel Osteen now. He's got Matthew McConaughey's voice and a face and build that's as threatening as 12 week old Labrador retriever. The guy could stand on that stage and tell those people just about any goddamn thing and they'd suck it up like cheesecake. If he wanted to, he could turn that crowd into a Jew hating mob without every altering the tone of his voice or uttering the words "Hate" or "Jew."

If you call portraying the mother of Mimi on the Drew Carey Show, dignified, I suppose she qualifies.

 

[Underseer]

Jim and Tammy are an interesting case study of what happens when a very small world gets stretched to cover a new one. It's something like a balloon with a pattern printed on the rubber. You can't read it until it's inflated. If it's over inflated, the pattern gets thin and you can see through it. Inflate it a little more and it all disappears.

The Bakkers took their small Pentecostal congregation social structure and tried to stretch it to be a worldwide corporation. Part of the Pentecostal culture is that the church supports the pastor and his family. Most Pentecostal churches are very small and pastor is a part time job. When a Pentecostal congregation gets large enough to pay a preacher well, there really is no social structure which limits excess. The Pentecostals are pretty much a blue collar culture, so wealth is seen as a sign of God's blessing. A wealthy person must be a good person. Everyone wants the preacher to be blessed.

All of this works on a small scale, where true excess is not really available.

The other element which gets people in trouble is the idea that the minister is burdened with everyone else's salvation. The means he is always under a lot of stress. Beyond that, he maybe the only man in the church who wears a suit and tie. He probably wears cologne, as well. This sets him apart from the other men of the church and the women of the church can see the difference.

When the concept of preacher as ideal man is combined with the subservient female thing, it's inevitable there will be sex scandals. There will be women who see it as an act of self sacrifice. Her honor and virtue go on the altar for the good of the congregation. There will be preachers who expect a little sacrifice. That's what Jim Bakker. He was used to willing women who presented themselves for service.

When you're the head of a multi-national corporation, you don't have the kind of close contact with your congregation, like in a small church. There isn't time or opportunity. It's very easy for signals to be missed and you think she's in your office to lighten your burden and she thinks you're a rapist.

The small church thing was what finally destroyed the Bakker's Empire. The preacher of a small Pentecostal church owns very little. His house is owned by the church and it's part of his pay. When Jim and Tammy started building a 22 room parsonage, it was the same. When they had five such parsonages, the World Wide Church of God, was the owner of record. This included the furniture and all their cars.

When the scandal broke, and Jim was defrocked, the Bakkers were suddenly homeless.

There is a stark contrast to this scenario.

Jimmy Swaggart was also a Pentecostal minister who managed to grow his small church into a mega church televangelist operation. When his scandal broke and the Church Elders revoked his credentials, they were surprised to learn that Swaggart's church and property was owned by him, personally, not by the church corporation. He just severed his official ties with the World Wide Church of God and kept operating.

While I find your analysis incredibly interesting, I think you are reading way too much into the details and missing the big picture.

50% of men and 50% of women will cheat on their spouse at least once in their lives. Fifty [bad word] percent. That means regardless of what pressures church leaders are under, and regardless of how much of a pedestal they are placed on, half of them are going to cheat on their spouses. Half. No matter what else is going on, half will cheat.

The complication comes with the peculiar moral claims of religion. In order to sell the religion, they need to sell the idea that following the religion causes people to become morally superior. Of course we atheists know how spurious these claims of moral superiority are, but the Christians really believe it because it is part of the marketing tactics of religious indoctrination. Thus in order to maintain the illusion of moral superiority, men and women of the cloth who cheat on their spouses are very likely to do unsavory things to hide what they have done. Ugh, now I'm letting myself get bogged down in details. See what you did to me? I blame you entirely!

 

[Keith&Co.]

50% of men and 50% of women will cheat on their spouse at least once in their lives. Fifty [bad word] percent. That means regardless of what pressures church leaders are under, and regardless of how much of a pedestal they are placed on, half of them are going to cheat on their spouses. Half. No matter what else is going on, half will cheat.

I'd be curious to see the actual numbers on that. Not the reported numbers, of course, but if there were some way to get the true statistics.

I mean, if just half of all men cheat, then i'd say that Navy sailors are carrying the load for quite a few other professions.

I'd think it's possible that those who hear 'A Calling' cheat less than those who pull into foreign ports and say, "What she doesn't know, won't hurt me."
Of course, it's also possible that those who profess A Calling cheat far more than those who, say, become CPAs.

I'd just be interested to know the actual statistics.

 

[Bronzeage]

Jim and Tammy are an interesting case study of what happens when a very small world gets stretched to cover a new one. It's something like a balloon with a pattern printed on the rubber. You can't read it until it's inflated. If it's over inflated, the pattern gets thin and you can see through it. Inflate it a little more and it all disappears.

The Bakkers took their small Pentecostal congregation social structure and tried to stretch it to be a worldwide corporation. Part of the Pentecostal culture is that the church supports the pastor and his family. Most Pentecostal churches are very small and pastor is a part time job. When a Pentecostal congregation gets large enough to pay a preacher well, there really is no social structure which limits excess. The Pentecostals are pretty much a blue collar culture, so wealth is seen as a sign of God's blessing. A wealthy person must be a good person. Everyone wants the preacher to be blessed.

All of this works on a small scale, where true excess is not really available.

The other element which gets people in trouble is the idea that the minister is burdened with everyone else's salvation. The means he is always under a lot of stress. Beyond that, he maybe the only man in the church who wears a suit and tie. He probably wears cologne, as well. This sets him apart from the other men of the church and the women of the church can see the difference.

When the concept of preacher as ideal man is combined with the subservient female thing, it's inevitable there will be sex scandals. There will be women who see it as an act of self sacrifice. Her honor and virtue go on the altar for the good of the congregation. There will be preachers who expect a little sacrifice. That's what Jim Bakker. He was used to willing women who presented themselves for service.

When you're the head of a multi-national corporation, you don't have the kind of close contact with your congregation, like in a small church. There isn't time or opportunity. It's very easy for signals to be missed and you think she's in your office to lighten your burden and she thinks you're a rapist.

The small church thing was what finally destroyed the Bakker's Empire. The preacher of a small Pentecostal church owns very little. His house is owned by the church and it's part of his pay. When Jim and Tammy started building a 22 room parsonage, it was the same. When they had five such parsonages, the World Wide Church of God, was the owner of record. This included the furniture and all their cars.

When the scandal broke, and Jim was defrocked, the Bakkers were suddenly homeless.

There is a stark contrast to this scenario.

Jimmy Swaggart was also a Pentecostal minister who managed to grow his small church into a mega church televangelist operation. When his scandal broke and the Church Elders revoked his credentials, they were surprised to learn that Swaggart's church and property was owned by him, personally, not by the church corporation. He just severed his official ties with the World Wide Church of God and kept operating.

While I find your analysis incredibly interesting, I think you are reading way too much into the details and missing the big picture.

50% of men and 50% of women will cheat on their spouse at least once in their lives. Fifty [bad word] percent. That means regardless of what pressures church leaders are under, and regardless of how much of a pedestal they are placed on, half of them are going to cheat on their spouses. Half. No matter what else is going on, half will cheat.

The complication comes with the peculiar moral claims of religion. In order to sell the religion, they need to sell the idea that following the religion causes people to become morally superior. Of course we atheists know how spurious these claims of moral superiority are, but the Christians really believe it because it is part of the marketing tactics of religious indoctrination. Thus in order to maintain the illusion of moral superiority, men and women of the cloth who cheat on their spouses are very likely to do unsavory things to hide what they have done. Ugh, now I'm letting myself get bogged down in details. See what you did to me? I blame you entirely!

The problem with statistics is the numbers are easy, but the units are difficult. Fifty percent of all marriages end in divorce. Does this mean 50% of all minister's marriages end in divorce? Ministers make up a relatively small percentage of the population. This means every minister could be faithful to their spouse and have little effect on the overall statistics. What percentage of atheists know claims of moral superiority are spurious. I find 100% to be an unrealistic total.

The big picture is that religious leaders are human and subject to the frailties which burden us all.

Jim Bakker is an example of a man whose talent lie in being an effective speaker who knew his audience. His downfall was a lack of philosophical introspection. The Pentecostal Church has always had a problem dealing with wealth. Their blue collar background has always presented wealth as this mysterious blessing from God. Wealth was not something inherited from previous generations. This leads to the obvious idea that all good things are rewards from God, which is a real problem when the good things are actually the temptations to which one is exposed, after becoming wealthy.