Professors in Poverty

[bilby]

If you need a performance indicator to tell you whether someone who is involved in the latest research is better able to teach at the highest level than someone who hopefully might possibly have read and understood some fairly recent research, then there is no hope for you.

I spent my entire career leading research and realization of latest human performance technology. Think Flight Status Monitor and Global Operator Simulator Models if you need examples. Can't teach for shit. Well, most of those who I taught to conduct good research became good teachers of research. These are two different capabilities and skills.

Different, yes; But not unrelated. The worlds finest teacher is useless if he doesn't know the subject matter. Unless all you want is students who know the textbook from cover to cover, without any deep understanding of the subject, or any knowledge of advances made since the textbook was written.

You might be able to get away with that in primary school. Maybe even secondary school. Not at university though.

Passing examinations is not the sole purpose of education.

 

[laughing dog]

Passing examinations is not the sole purpose of education.

Precisely, yet that the essence of this "measuring what we are getting" is driving at.

 

[fromderinside]

I spent my entire career leading research and realization of latest human performance technology. Think Flight Status Monitor and Global Operator Simulator Models if you need examples. Can't teach for shit. Well, most of those who I taught to conduct good research became good teachers of research. These are two different capabilities and skills.

Different, yes; But not unrelated. The worlds finest teacher is useless if he doesn't know the subject matter. Unless all you want is students who know the textbook from cover to cover, without any deep understanding of the subject, or any knowledge of advances made since the textbook was written.

You might be able to get away with that in primary school. Maybe even secondary school. Not at university though.

Passing examinations is not the sole purpose of education.

My understanding is that were talking about expert teachers versus expert in substance areas, not about someone with an AA compared to someone with several publications in one or more topic areas.

Topics are one thing. How to attack topics is quite another.

If one has a student who is numerically gifted one might also, in the same student, have on who is geometrically challenged. There are ways to skin both of these cats and get a student who is competent geometrically and, apparently, visually attacking this or that topic. It is the greatness of the good teacher to recognize how a student tends to address issues then take advantage so the student can attack personal problem areas. There are very few good or great scientists who are even aware such problems can be successfully addressed.

Teaching and expertise in this or that area of study are, at the higher levels, still two different things.

 

[barbos]

I spent my entire career leading research and realization of latest human performance technology. Think Flight Status Monitor and Global Operator Simulator Models if you need examples. Can't teach for shit. Well, most of those who I taught to conduct good research became good teachers of research. These are two different capabilities and skills.

Different, yes; But not unrelated. The worlds finest teacher is useless if he doesn't know the subject matter. Unless all you want is students who know the textbook from cover to cover, without any deep understanding of the subject, or any knowledge of advances made since the textbook was written.

You might be able to get away with that in primary school. Maybe even secondary school. Not at university though.

Passing examinations is not the sole purpose of education.

I agree, but US university education became just an extension of high school. It's fun and everybody goes there, that's description of high school.

 

[Toni]

Different, yes; But not unrelated. The worlds finest teacher is useless if he doesn't know the subject matter. Unless all you want is students who know the textbook from cover to cover, without any deep understanding of the subject, or any knowledge of advances made since the textbook was written.

You might be able to get away with that in primary school. Maybe even secondary school. Not at university though.

Passing examinations is not the sole purpose of education.

I agree, but US university education became just an extension of high school. It's fun and everybody goes there, that's description of high school.

How old are you, anyway?

 

[laughing dog]

Different, yes; But not unrelated. The worlds finest teacher is useless if he doesn't know the subject matter. Unless all you want is students who know the textbook from cover to cover, without any deep understanding of the subject, or any knowledge of advances made since the textbook was written.

You might be able to get away with that in primary school. Maybe even secondary school. Not at university though.

Passing examinations is not the sole purpose of education.

I agree, but US university education became just an extension of high school. It's fun and everybody goes there, that's description of high school.

Right, which is why students flock from around the world to go to US universities.

 

[fromderinside]

I agree, but US university education became just an extension of high school. It's fun and everybody goes there, that's description of high school.

How old are you, anyway?

Yeah. I heard that song and dance in the late fifties while Nobel committee was passing out Nobel prizes to UC Berkeley like penny (50 cent for of you born after 1980) candy.

 

[barbos]

I agree, but US university education became just an extension of high school. It's fun and everybody goes there, that's description of high school.

Right, which is why students flock from around the world to go to US universities.

There are other reasons to "flock". As someone who familiar with both russian and american universities I can say that in terms of actual education Russian ones are orders of magnitude better (I am talking about science and engineering), but unfortunately for them they don't have the status which US universities have.

I agree, but US university education became just an extension of high school. It's fun and everybody goes there, that's description of high school.

How old are you, anyway?

Why are you asking?

 

[fromderinside]

There are other reasons to "flock". As someone who familiar with both russian and american universities I can say that Russian are orders of magnitude better ...

So students at Russian universities are still prohibited from crossing their legs or ankles? Smirk. BTW how is that oil price collapse working out for Russian University funding?

 

[barbos]

There are other reasons to "flock". As someone who familiar with both russian and american universities I can say that Russian are orders of magnitude better ...

So students at Russian universities are still prohibited from crossing their legs or ankles?

What?

Smirk. BTW how is that oil price collapse working out for Russian University funding?

Well, russian budget was cut 10% across the board I think.
But funding was not that great even during oil boom years.

 

[fromderinside]

So students at Russian universities are still prohibited from crossing their legs or ankles?

What?

Simple question are students in classroom prohibited from crossing their legs or ankles while in class? They were up to the '80s.

 

[laughing dog]

Right, which is why students flock from around the world to go to US universities.

There are other reasons to "flock". As someone who familiar with both russian and american universities I can say that in terms of actual education Russian ones are orders of magnitude better (I am talking about science and engineering), but unfortunately for them they don't have the status which US universities have.

As someone who is familiar with both russian and american universities, I can say that in my experience, I find your claim to be untrue.

 

[barbos]

There are other reasons to "flock". As someone who familiar with both russian and american universities I can say that in terms of actual education Russian ones are orders of magnitude better (I am talking about science and engineering), but unfortunately for them they don't have the status which US universities have.

As someone who is familiar with both russian and american universities, I can say that in my experience, I find your claim to be untrue.

As someone who is familiar with you I can say you are full of shit.

- - - Updated - - -

What?

Simple question are students in classroom prohibited from crossing their legs or ankles while in class? They were up to the '80s.

I am not aware of such rule.

 

[JonA]

If you need a performance indicator to tell you whether someone who is involved in the latest research is better able to teach at the highest level than someone who hopefully might possibly have read and understood some fairly recent research, then there is no hope for you.

They are not the same skill. Being able to teach and figure out how to cure cancer aren't the same. And for 95% of the classes at the undergrad level you don't even need that.

This is a great conundrum.

Our educational systems are divided along the primary/secondary and post secondary lines in that with the former we expect educators to know how to teach but to have little if any understanding of the material and with the latter we expect the educators to be very fluent in the material but not to necessarily have any real ability to teach it.

Certainly there's got to be some middle area within both these systems that involves knowledgeable people who can also teach.

Or, conversely, maybe it just doesn't matter.

 

[laughing dog]

As someone who is familiar with both russian and american universities, I can say that in my experience, I find your claim to be untrue.

As someone who is familiar with you I can say you are full of shit.

I think anyone familiar with your posts agrees that you certainly have the ability to say anyone is full of shit. I also think that anyone familiar with your posts gets the meta-irony of your content-free reply. It is possible my experience or abilities are insufficient to make an accurate assessment between russian and american universities. It is also more than just possible that is true in your case as well.

 

[barbos]

As someone who is familiar with you I can say you are full of shit.

I think anyone familiar with your posts agrees that you certainly have the ability to say anyone is full of shit.

No, just you. Well, maybe couple of others.

I also think that anyone familiar with your posts gets the meta-irony of your content-free reply. It is possible my experience or abilities are insufficient to make an accurate assessment between russian and american universities. It is also more than just possible that is true in your case as well.

I have a first hand experience with both systems, because I have "undergrad" degree from top Russian university and PhD from American university. So I think it is you who is more than possible full of shit.

 

[laughing dog]

I think anyone familiar with your posts agrees that you certainly have the ability to say anyone is full of shit.

No, just you. Well, maybe couple of others.

I also think that anyone familiar with your posts gets the meta-irony of your content-free reply. It is possible my experience or abilities are insufficient to make an accurate assessment between russian and american universities. It is also more than just possible that is true in your case as well.

I have a first hand experience with both systems, because I have "undergrad" degree from top Russian university and PhD from American university. So I think it is you who is more than possible full of shit.

I have first hand experience with working with the many graduates of Russian universities. Their views differ significantly from yours. And, frankly, the evidence of the educational experiences indicated a wide variance of rigor at both Russian and US universities. Given your response is based on a comparison between an alleged "top" Russian university and an American university that you did not describe as "top", it is reasonable to conclude your observation is not terribly robust. Add in your well-documented history of kneejerk Russian boosterism, and your observations resembles the mindless manure of patriotism.

 

[barbos]

No, just you. Well, maybe couple of others.

I also think that anyone familiar with your posts gets the meta-irony of your content-free reply. It is possible my experience or abilities are insufficient to make an accurate assessment between russian and american universities. It is also more than just possible that is true in your case as well.

I have a first hand experience with both systems, because I have "undergrad" degree from top Russian university and PhD from American university. So I think it is you who is more than possible full of shit.

I have first hand experience with working with the many graduates of Russian universities. Their views differ significantly from yours. And, frankly, the evidence of the educational experiences indicated a wide variance of rigor at both Russian and US universities. Given your response is based on a comparison between an alleged "top" Russian university and an American university that you did not describe as "top", it is reasonable to conclude your observation is not terribly robust.

So, you don't have first hand experience with anything. You have opinions of people from unknown "universities" who themselves don't even appear to be familiar with US universities. And being russian and therefore knowing russians I know that they are pretty careful speaking to foreigners especially when it could cost them.
At best it is a third hand experience.

 

[laughing dog]

No, just you. Well, maybe couple of others.

I also think that anyone familiar with your posts gets the meta-irony of your content-free reply. It is possible my experience or abilities are insufficient to make an accurate assessment between russian and american universities. It is also more than just possible that is true in your case as well.

I have a first hand experience with both systems, because I have "undergrad" degree from top Russian university and PhD from American university. So I think it is you who is more than possible full of shit.

I have first hand experience with working with the many graduates of Russian universities. Their views differ significantly from yours. And, frankly, the evidence of the educational experiences indicated a wide variance of rigor at both Russian and US universities. Given your response is based on a comparison between an alleged "top" Russian university and an American university that you did not describe as "top", it is reasonable to conclude your observation is not terribly robust.

So, you don't have first hand experience with anything. You have opinions of people from unknown "universities" who themselves don't even appear to be familiar with US universities.

They were very familiar with US universities. At least as familiar as you claim to be and in some cases, probably a great deal more.

And being russian and therefore knowing russians I know that they are pretty careful speaking to foreigners especially when it could cost them.

And yet, they spoke of terrible and wonderful experiences at Russian universities.

At best it is a third hand experience.

I will take a multitude of "3rd hand experiences" from people I know and trust over the extremely limited and alleged experience of a very biased reporter.

 

[barbos]

No, just you. Well, maybe couple of others.

I also think that anyone familiar with your posts gets the meta-irony of your content-free reply. It is possible my experience or abilities are insufficient to make an accurate assessment between russian and american universities. It is also more than just possible that is true in your case as well.

I have a first hand experience with both systems, because I have "undergrad" degree from top Russian university and PhD from American university. So I think it is you who is more than possible full of shit.

I have first hand experience with working with the many graduates of Russian universities. Their views differ significantly from yours. And, frankly, the evidence of the educational experiences indicated a wide variance of rigor at both Russian and US universities. Given your response is based on a comparison between an alleged "top" Russian university and an American university that you did not describe as "top", it is reasonable to conclude your observation is not terribly robust.

So, you don't have first hand experience with anything. You have opinions of people from unknown "universities" who themselves don't even appear to be familiar with US universities.

They were very familiar with US universities. At least as familiar as you claim to be and in some cases, probably a great deal more.

And being russian and therefore knowing russians I know that they are pretty careful speaking to foreigners especially when it could cost them.

And yet, they spoke of terrible and wonderful experiences at Russian universities.

At best it is a third hand experience.

I will take a multitude of "3rd hand experiences" from people I know and trust over the extremely limited and alleged experience of a very biased reporter.

I think you are lying and even if you don't you are still full of shit because you clearly don't have any relevant experience.

Just to educate you a little, let me explain you what bachelor degree means in Russia and what it means in US. Most scientists in Russia and Soviet Union especially had bachelor degrees (5 years university) and nothing else. In US bachelor degrees don't mean a shit in hard sciences, you certainly will not be hired as a researcher with that.

Also there were not that many universities in Soviet Union and early Russia. Now any "institution" get "university" status, but they are not really in the same class as real universities, certainly not with the old top. You are not gonna get hired as researcher with degrees from these "universities"
So your "friends" are probably not even from university.