Calorie intake among low, normal and obese people pretty much the same

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So not eating for months is not 'starvation'? Really?

Starvation? You're making me laugh. Perhaps it is time for you to take a time out.

It's called fasting. And people do it all the time. And they don't die.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Starvation? You're making me laugh. Perhaps it is time for you to take a time out.

You said:

If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem.

Here is the definition of "starvation"

Starvation is a severe deficiency in caloric energy intake needed to maintain human life.

If a person stops eating for months, they are starving themselves.

That is not healthy

And perhaps YOU should take the time out... to educate yourself. RonBurgandy and Playball have both provided you with excellent resources, but you refuse to educate yourself. I expect that sort of willful ignorance (or baiting) from a few of the people spouting off in this thread, but not from you.

I've read their linked articles. Perhaps you need a time out.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

A very interesting article on the Guardian website today:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin

It is quite long - though worth reading in it's entirety. But this section really summarizes what I believe about the main cause of obesity:

Those prewar European researchers would have regarded the idea that obesity results from “excess calories” as laughably simplistic. Biochemists and endocrinologists are more likely to think of obesity as a hormonal disorder, triggered by the kinds of foods we started eating a lot more of when we cut back on fat: easily digestible starches and sugars. In his new book, Always Hungry, David Ludwig, an endocrinologist and professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School, calls this the “Insulin-Carbohydrate” model of obesity. According to this model, an excess of refined carbohydrates interferes with the self-balancing equilibrium of the metabolic system.

Far from being an inert dumping ground for excess calories, fat tissue operates as a reserve energy supply for the body. Its calories are called upon when glucose is running low – that is, between meals, or during fasts and famines. Fat takes instruction from insulin, the hormone responsible for regulating blood sugar. Refined carbohydrates break down at speed into glucose in the blood, prompting the pancreas to produce insulin. When insulin levels rise, fat tissue gets a signal to suck energy out of the blood, and to stop releasing it. So when insulin stays high for unnaturally long, a person gains weight, gets hungrier, and feels fatigued. Then we blame them for it. But, as Gary Taubes puts it, obese people are not fat because they are overeating and sedentary – they are overeating and sedentary because they are fat, or getting fatter.

Ludwig makes clear, as Taubes does, that this is not a new theory – John Yudkin would have recognised it – but an old one that has been galvanised by new evidence. What he does not mention is the role that supporters of the fat hypothesis have played, historically, in demolishing the credibility of those who proposed it.

It would be tough to rationally argue with anything in that article. Sadly, there are people who consider these refined, ingestible consumables as actual food, when nothing could be less accurate. They are calories, but they are certainly not food.

 

[beero1000]

So not eating for months is not 'starvation'? Really?

It's called fasting. And people do it all the time. And they don't die.

Seriously? You're really not backing down from the "you can not eat anything for months at a time and be fine" claim? Not even a qualification?

People do not fast completely for months at a time because they can absolutely die from it, and even if they don't die, they can do permanent damage to their bodies. Organ damage, heart failure, immune system damage, vitamin deficiencies, catabolysis, muscle atrophy, bone loss, ...

 

[RavenSky]

A very interesting article on the Guardian website today:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin

It is quite long - though worth reading in it's entirety...

Excellent article, thank you!

When obesity started to become recognised as a problem in western societies, it too was blamed on saturated fats. It was not difficult to persuade the public that if we eat fat, we will be fat (this is a trick of the language: we call an overweight person “fat”; we don’t describe a person with a muscular body as “proteiny”). The scientific rationale was also pleasingly simple: a gramme of fat has twice as many calories as a gramme of protein or carbohydrate, and we can all grasp the idea that if a person takes in more calories than she expends in physical activity, the surplus ends up as fat.

Simple does not mean right, of course. It’s difficult to square this theory with the dramatic rise in obesity since 1980, or with much other evidence. In America, average calorific intake increased by just a sixth over that period. In the UK, it actually fell. There has been no commensurate decline in physical activity, in either country – in the UK, exercise levels have increased over the last 20 years. Obesity is a problem in some of the poorest parts of the world, even among communities in which food is scarce. Controlled trials have repeatedly failed to show that people lose weight on low-fat or low-calorie diets, over the long-term.

 

[RavenSky]

It's called fasting. And people do it all the time. And they don't die.

Seriously? You're really not backing down from the "you can not eat anything for months at a time and be fine" claim? Not even a qualification?

People do not fast completely for months at a time because they can absolutely die from it, and even if they don't die, they can do permanent damage to their bodies. Organ damage, heart failure, immune system damage, vitamin deficiencies, catabolysis, muscle atrophy, bone loss, ...

Hey Beero - stop talking rational facts or you will be put on time-out by JoeDad too!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's called fasting. And people do it all the time. And they don't die.

Seriously? You're really not backing down from the "you can not eat anything for months at a time and be fine" claim? Not even a qualification?

People do not fast completely for months at a time because they can absolutely die from it, and even if they don't die, they can do permanent damage to their bodies. Organ damage, heart failure, immune system damage, vitamin deficiencies, catabolysis, muscle atrophy, bone loss, ...

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it. I suppose that is the nature of an addiction.

Or perhaps some of us have suckled on the teat of victimhood for so long we can conceive of no other way to survive.

 

[RavenSky]

Seriously? You're really not backing down from the "you can not eat anything for months at a time and be fine" claim? Not even a qualification?

People do not fast completely for months at a time because they can absolutely die from it, and even if they don't die, they can do permanent damage to their bodies. Organ damage, heart failure, immune system damage, vitamin deficiencies, catabolysis, muscle atrophy, bone loss, ...

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

Here is what you said:

If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem.

That is not the same as

Of course they consume amounts of food...

So are you backing down from the original statement and admitting your error or misstatement?

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it.

No one is "defending obesity" - that you keep claiming this sort of nonsense shows how dishonestly you are discussing this topic.

The responses you are receiving are defending the science against your emotion-based bias and ad hominems

 

[Playball40]

So not eating for months is not 'starvation'? Really?

It's called fasting. And people do it all the time. And they don't die.

No dying and no problems are two very different things. And one cannot fast for "months" anyway.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

Here is what you said:

If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem.

That is not the same as

Of course they consume amounts of food...

So are you backing down from the original statement and admitting your error or misstatement?

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it.

No one is "defending obesity" - that you keep claiming this sort of nonsense shows how dishonestly you are discussing this topic.

The responses you are receiving are defending the science against your emotion-based bias and ad hominems

I'm just saying get rid of the fat because it's healthy, and that the way to do that is move more and eat less. Others are saying they are fat but can't do anything about it.

So I hope the jurors out there aren't 300 pound twinkie-eaters or I'm seriously screwed.

 

[Playball40]

Seriously? You're really not backing down from the "you can not eat anything for months at a time and be fine" claim? Not even a qualification?

People do not fast completely for months at a time because they can absolutely die from it, and even if they don't die, they can do permanent damage to their bodies. Organ damage, heart failure, immune system damage, vitamin deficiencies, catabolysis, muscle atrophy, bone loss, ...

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it. I suppose that is the nature of an addiction.

Or perhaps some of us have suckled on the teat of victimhood for so long we can conceive of no other way to survive.

OMG you could NOT BE MORE WRONG. Your lack of knowledge is actually frightening.

 

[Playball40]

Seriously? You're really not backing down from the "you can not eat anything for months at a time and be fine" claim? Not even a qualification?

People do not fast completely for months at a time because they can absolutely die from it, and even if they don't die, they can do permanent damage to their bodies. Organ damage, heart failure, immune system damage, vitamin deficiencies, catabolysis, muscle atrophy, bone loss, ...

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it. I suppose that is the nature of an addiction.

Or perhaps some of us have suckled on the teat of victimhood for so long we can conceive of no other way to survive.

Actually mortality rates are lowest for those having a "BMI" of overweight or slightly obese. Just an FYI. Either way, no one once in this thread said 'eating junk' is just fine and dandy. No one said 'give up exercise' either. However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

 

[Playball40]

A very interesting article on the Guardian website today:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin

It is quite long - though worth reading in it's entirety. But this section really summarizes what I believe about the main cause of obesity:

It would be tough to rationally argue with anything in that article. Sadly, there are people who consider these refined, ingestible consumables as actual food, when nothing could be less accurate. They are calories, but they are certainly not food.

Yes, they are food. They may not be food with value nutritionally but they are food. That said, perhaps your beef should be with the food industry and chemical companies as opposed to the people that eat this food.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it. I suppose that is the nature of an addiction.

Or perhaps some of us have suckled on the teat of victimhood for so long we can conceive of no other way to survive.

OMG you could NOT BE MORE WRONG. Your lack of knowledge is actually frightening.

I couldn't care less about who's right and who's wrong, grade school was a long time ago for me. If people start losing the fat pounds and stop eating themselves into poor health no one will be happier than me, no matter who was right or wrong, as you say.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It would be tough to rationally argue with anything in that article. Sadly, there are people who consider these refined, ingestible consumables as actual food, when nothing could be less accurate. They are calories, but they are certainly not food.

Yes, they are food. They may not be food with value nutritionally but they are food. That said, perhaps your beef should be with the food industry and chemical companies as opposed to the people that eat this food.

Just because something is edible does not make it food. I use the phrase "recreational eating" to describe such indulgences, and I certainly commit my share, though apparently exceedingly less than the average person when I read the statistics on how much refined sugar, for example, the average Western eater consumes daily.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it. I suppose that is the nature of an addiction.

Or perhaps some of us have suckled on the teat of victimhood for so long we can conceive of no other way to survive.

Actually mortality rates are lowest for those having a "BMI" of overweight or slightly obese. Just an FYI. Either way, no one once in this thread said 'eating junk' is just fine and dandy. No one said 'give up exercise' either. However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

I certainly hope this doesn't come as a shock to you but what people say is of little value compared to what they do.

That said I am enjoying the exchange.

 

[RavenSky]

Here is what you said:

If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem.

That is not the same as

Of course they consume amounts of food...

So are you backing down from the original statement and admitting your error or misstatement?

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it.

No one is "defending obesity" - that you keep claiming this sort of nonsense shows how dishonestly you are discussing this topic.

The responses you are receiving are defending the science against your emotion-based bias and ad hominems

I'm just saying get rid of the fat because it's healthy, and that the way to do that is move more and eat less. Others are saying they are fat but can't do anything about it.

So I hope the jurors out there aren't 300 pound twinkie-eaters or I'm seriously screwed.

No, you are saying "If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem" and other incredibly ignorant shit, including "300 pound twinkie-eaters". (Serious question, are you TRYING to be a complete asshole in this thread? If you are, just say so and I will quit bothering to reply to you as I have with certain others)

And no one anywhere here is saying "they are fat but can't do anything about it." No one. If you think someone is, you need to post the quote with a link, just like I quoted your exact words with a link in the previous post.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Here is what you said:

If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem.

That is not the same as

Of course they consume amounts of food...

So are you backing down from the original statement and admitting your error or misstatement?

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it.

No one is "defending obesity" - that you keep claiming this sort of nonsense shows how dishonestly you are discussing this topic.

The responses you are receiving are defending the science against your emotion-based bias and ad hominems

I'm just saying get rid of the fat because it's healthy, and that the way to do that is move more and eat less. Others are saying they are fat but can't do anything about it.

So I hope the jurors out there aren't 300 pound twinkie-eaters or I'm seriously screwed.

No, you are saying "If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem" and other incredibly ignorant shit, including "300 pound twinkie-eaters". (Serious question, are you TRYING to be a complete asshole in this thread? If you are, just say so and I will quit bothering to reply to you as I have with certain others)

And no one anywhere here is saying "they are fat but can't do anything about it." No one. If you think someone is, you need to post the quote with a link, just like I quoted your exact words with a link in the previous post.

Obesity and the consumption of junk - and the illnesses that accompany this behavior - are on the rise. Every person who consumes this junk and is overweight and unhealthy can do something about it. They are empowered.

They are also empowered to squander their health, and in doing also attempt to delegate the blame, perhaps in an attempt to assuage their guilt, perhaps out of a lack of knowledge that they are in fact empowered, upon others.

That's what it comes down to.

 

[RavenSky]

Obesity and the consumption of junk - and the illnesses that accompany this behavior - are on the rise. Every person who consumes this junk and is overweight and unhealthy can do something about it. They are empowered.

They are also empowered to squander their health, and in doing also attempt to delegate the blame, perhaps in an attempt to assuage their guilt, perhaps out of a lack of knowledge that they are in fact empowered, upon others.

That's what it comes down to.

Does it make you feel better to keep repeating this pablum? It is actually very clear you did not read the full article EricK posted, or if you did you simply rejected it as you have rejected every fact that refutes your tightly-held faith-based belief.

 

[skepticalbip]

Of course they consume amounts of food but nothing like before. Maybe they just do liquids/juice/water for months on end depending on their level of obesity. And of course they need to do it right, requiring supervision. It is still a fast and they manage to survive.

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it. I suppose that is the nature of an addiction.

Or perhaps some of us have suckled on the teat of victimhood for so long we can conceive of no other way to survive.

Actually mortality rates are lowest for those having a "BMI" of overweight or slightly obese. Just an FYI.

You are right about this, depending on what you mean by "slightly obese". Personally, I think that the charts that list normal, overweight, and obese based on BMI are more arbitrary choices based on fashion more than reason. "Normal" is and has historically been what these charts would label "overweight".

Either way, no one once in this thread said 'eating junk' is just fine and dandy. No one said 'give up exercise' either. However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

I think you are here talking about judgementalism, not whether or not the advice given to someone who is obese and really wants to lose weight is valid.

As has been amply documented by several people "justifying" obesity, different people have different metabolisms, so a lifestyle that works at keeping one person trim can result in another living the same lifestyle becoming obese. This being true means that if someone is obese and really wants to lose weight then they will have to adopt a different lifestyle of watching their food intake more carefully and increasing their physical activity - this is tough but little in life is easy or fair.