Calorie intake among low, normal and obese people pretty much the same

[TSwizzle]

However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

Unfortunately most of them are. So I will continue to tell them to stop wallowing in self pity and encourage them to stop eating shit and get off their ass.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Obesity and the consumption of junk - and the illnesses that accompany this behavior - are on the rise. Every person who consumes this junk and is overweight and unhealthy can do something about it. They are empowered.

They are also empowered to squander their health, and in doing also attempt to delegate the blame, perhaps in an attempt to assuage their guilt, perhaps out of a lack of knowledge that they are in fact empowered, upon others.

That's what it comes down to.

Does it make you feel better to keep repeating this pablum? It is actually very clear you did not read the full article EricK posted, or if you did you simply rejected it as you have rejected every fact that refutes your tightly-held faith-based belief.

Perhaps you should fill in the blanks:

It is not my fault that I am overweight and out of shape because ___________________.

It is not in my power to stop eating junk calories because __________________________.

I do not engage in physical activity because _________________________.

My poor health is not my fault because _________________________.

I talk about getting healthy and I know what it takes, but I do little or nothing toward that end because ___________________.

It is not possible for me to lose weight and improve my health because _________________________.

Sorry, it's just the old coach/athlete in me. I could dress that all up in pretty talk but you just can't eat pretty, as they say.

Many people are of the mindset that they can't address a single problem because they can't address the totality of the problem. That whole fairness schtick, and comforting for sure. It just doesn't get anything done.

 

[RavenSky]

Does it make you feel better to keep repeating this pablum? It is actually very clear you did not read the full article EricK posted, or if you did you simply rejected it as you have rejected every fact that refutes your tightly-held faith-based belief.

...Sorry, it's just the old coach/athlete in me. I could dress that all up in pretty talk but you just can't eat pretty, as they say.

Many people are of the mindset that they can't address a single problem because they can't address the totality of the problem. That whole fairness schtick, and comforting for sure. It just doesn't get anything done.

Your strawmen have no place in this discussion. As for your "old coach/athlete" mindset, you really need to read the article EricK posted. Anyone working from "old" knowledge needs to educate himself before tossing out so much wrong information.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

...Sorry, it's just the old coach/athlete in me. I could dress that all up in pretty talk but you just can't eat pretty, as they say.

Many people are of the mindset that they can't address a single problem because they can't address the totality of the problem. That whole fairness schtick, and comforting for sure. It just doesn't get anything done.

Your strawmen have no place in this discussion. As for your "old coach/athlete" mindset, you really need to read the article EricK posted. Anyone working from "old" knowledge needs to educate himself before tossing out so much wrong information.

I'll see your strawman and raise you a red herring.

 

[RavenSky]

Your strawmen have no place in this discussion. As for your "old coach/athlete" mindset, you really need to read the article EricK posted. Anyone working from "old" knowledge needs to educate himself before tossing out so much wrong information.

I'll see your strawman and raise you a red herring.

What red herring? Your complete lack of up-to-date knowledge on this topic and perpetuation of stereotypes? JoeDad, that IS the topic of this thread from the OP - the lack of knowledge and incorrect assumptions people have around the subject of weight.

 

[TSwizzle]

Anyone working from "old" knowledge needs to educate himself before tossing out so much wrong information.

So where in the "new knowledge" (it's nothing new actually) does it say that eating crap and sitting on your ass is not a recipe for getting fat ?

 

[skepticalbip]

Anyone working from "old" knowledge needs to educate himself before tossing out so much wrong information.

So where in the "new knowledge" (it's nothing new actually) does it say that eating crap and sitting on your ass is not a recipe for getting fat ?

The most destructive part of this "new knowledge" is their certainty that people are simply victims that have absolutely no control over their condition. There are millions of people who fortunately didn't know that they had no control so defied the "new knowledge" and are no longer obese. - I know a few of them.

 

[EricK]

Anyone working from "old" knowledge needs to educate himself before tossing out so much wrong information.

So where in the "new knowledge" (it's nothing new actually) does it say that eating crap and sitting on your ass is not a recipe for getting fat ?

The "new knowledge" (and you're right, it's not new) is the defintion of 'crap'. Consider a traditional fried breakfast - for a long time, it was the bacon and eggs which was considered the crap. But now we know it is the refined flour in the toast and the sugar in the baked bean sauce. If you ate nothing but the bacon and fried eggs, you could sit around on your ass all day and still not get fat (although you probably wouldn't feel like sitting around on your ass all day).

 

[RavenSky]

The "new knowledge" (and you're right, it's not new) is the defintion of 'crap'. Consider a traditional fried breakfast - for a long time, it was the bacon and eggs which was considered the crap. But now we know it is the refined flour in the toast and the sugar in the baked bean sauce. If you ate nothing but the bacon and fried eggs, you could sit around on your ass all day and still not get fat (although you probably wouldn't feel like sitting around on your ass all day).

I've given out too much rep again, so I will just say ^^^^ that

 

[TSwizzle]

So where in the "new knowledge" (it's nothing new actually) does it say that eating crap and sitting on your ass is not a recipe for getting fat ?

The "new knowledge" (and you're right, it's not new) is the defintion of 'crap'. Consider a traditional fried breakfast - for a long time, it was the bacon and eggs which was considered the crap. But now we know it is the refined flour in the toast and the sugar in the baked bean sauce. If you ate nothing but the bacon and fried eggs, you could sit around on your ass all day and still not get fat (although you probably wouldn't feel like sitting around on your ass all day).

Your cholesterol would eventually go through the roof and kill you !

 

[EricK]

The "new knowledge" (and you're right, it's not new) is the defintion of 'crap'. Consider a traditional fried breakfast - for a long time, it was the bacon and eggs which was considered the crap. But now we know it is the refined flour in the toast and the sugar in the baked bean sauce. If you ate nothing but the bacon and fried eggs, you could sit around on your ass all day and still not get fat (although you probably wouldn't feel like sitting around on your ass all day).

Your cholesterol would eventually go through the roof and kill you !

Almost certainly not. See eg http://ketogasm.com/the-bacon-experiment-interview/ for experimental evidence

And this is what annoys me. People have been fed a diet of crap - by governments and nutritionists. And they can't shake those erroneous beliefs. No wonder they find it so hard to lose weight.

I have seen many people earnestly try to lose weight by following government guidelines, or diets recommended by their doctors and they usually can't manage it. But, in fact, losing weight is easy. I tell people how to do it - I even show them how to do it (I used to weigh about 30 pounds more than I do now) - but they don't believe me, or believe it would work but is unhealthy - so ingrained are their false beliefs.

 

[TSwizzle]

Your cholesterol would eventually go through the roof and kill you !

Almost certainly not. See eg http://ketogasm.com/the-bacon-experiment-interview/ for experimental evidence

The cholesterol in egg yolks is what I was referring to. You can't go wrong with bacon in my opinion. Everything should be wrapped in bacon ! I wear it as a cologne

 

[EricK]

Almost certainly not. See eg http://ketogasm.com/the-bacon-experiment-interview/ for experimental evidence

The cholesterol in egg yolks is what I was referring to. You can't go wrong with bacon in my opinion. Everything should be wrapped in bacon ! I wear it as a cologne

How about this link then? http://myzerocarblife.jamesdhogan.c...nly-meat-and-eggs-did-this-to-my-cholesterol/

 

[TSwizzle]

The cholesterol in egg yolks is what I was referring to. You can't go wrong with bacon in my opinion. Everything should be wrapped in bacon ! I wear it as a cologne

How about this link then? http://myzerocarblife.jamesdhogan.c...nly-meat-and-eggs-did-this-to-my-cholesterol/

Thanks for posting, I've not had time to read the whole thing yet but I will do so later.

 

[J842P]

Almost certainly not. See eg http://ketogasm.com/the-bacon-experiment-interview/ for experimental evidence

The cholesterol in egg yolks is what I was referring to. You can't go wrong with bacon in my opinion. Everything should be wrapped in bacon ! I wear it as a cologne

TSwizzle, your knowledge about the effects of dietary cholesterol is out of date.

 

[TSwizzle]

The cholesterol in egg yolks is what I was referring to. You can't go wrong with bacon in my opinion. Everything should be wrapped in bacon ! I wear it as a cologne

TSwizzle, your knowledge about the effects of dietary cholesterol is out of date.

I hope so !

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So where in the "new knowledge" (it's nothing new actually) does it say that eating crap and sitting on your ass is not a recipe for getting fat ?

The "new knowledge" (and you're right, it's not new) is the defintion of 'crap'. Consider a traditional fried breakfast - for a long time, it was the bacon and eggs which was considered the crap. But now we know it is the refined flour in the toast and the sugar in the baked bean sauce. If you ate nothing but the bacon and fried eggs, you could sit around on your ass all day and still not get fat (although you probably wouldn't feel like sitting around on your ass all day).

Quite true. If you're going to have bread, eat like a pharaoh. Make it nutritious, 100% whole grain sourdough, and not the garbage you buy in a store.

 

[Playball40]

Actually no its not. Obesity rates have leveled off since around 2000 and have even declined in some sectors of the population.

Every person that consumes junk and is overweight is NOT unhealthy. Anymore than every person that consumes junk and is underweight is NOT unhealthy. Anymore than every person that consumes all lean meats, fruits and vegetable and exercises for an hour a day IS healthy.

They have nothing to feel "guilty" about. Why the moral judgment from you?

Here is what you said:

If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem.

That is not the same as

Of course they consume amounts of food...

So are you backing down from the original statement and admitting your error or misstatement?

What I find most interesting in these discussions is how people defending obesity know that being overweight and eating junk is a problem but they keep defending it.

No one is "defending obesity" - that you keep claiming this sort of nonsense shows how dishonestly you are discussing this topic.

The responses you are receiving are defending the science against your emotion-based bias and ad hominems

I'm just saying get rid of the fat because it's healthy, and that the way to do that is move more and eat less. Others are saying they are fat but can't do anything about it.

So I hope the jurors out there aren't 300 pound twinkie-eaters or I'm seriously screwed.

No, you are saying "If you're seriously overweight you can stop eating for months with no problem" and other incredibly ignorant shit, including "300 pound twinkie-eaters". (Serious question, are you TRYING to be a complete asshole in this thread? If you are, just say so and I will quit bothering to reply to you as I have with certain others)

And no one anywhere here is saying "they are fat but can't do anything about it." No one. If you think someone is, you need to post the quote with a link, just like I quoted your exact words with a link in the previous post.

Obesity and the consumption of junk - and the illnesses that accompany this behavior - are on the rise. Every person who consumes this junk and is overweight and unhealthy can do something about it. They are empowered.

They are also empowered to squander their health, and in doing also attempt to delegate the blame, perhaps in an attempt to assuage their guilt, perhaps out of a lack of knowledge that they are in fact empowered, upon others.

That's what it comes down to.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually the BMI charts changed in 1998. "Normal" is now the SMALLEST group. However, I agree the BMI calculation is arbitrary and was NEVER MEANT TO MEASURE AN INDIVIDUAL OR DETEMINE HEALTH.

Actually mortality rates are lowest for those having a "BMI" of overweight or slightly obese. Just an FYI.

You are right about this, depending on what you mean by "slightly obese". Personally, I think that the charts that list normal, overweight, and obese based on BMI are more arbitrary choices based on fashion more than reason. "Normal" is and has historically been what these charts would label "overweight".

Either way, no one once in this thread said 'eating junk' is just fine and dandy. No one said 'give up exercise' either. However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

I think you are here talking about judgementalism, not whether or not the advice given to someone who is obese and really wants to lose weight is valid.

As has been amply documented by several people "justifying" obesity, different people have different metabolisms, so a lifestyle that works at keeping one person trim can result in another living the same lifestyle becoming obese. This being true means that if someone is obese and really wants to lose weight then they will have to adopt a different lifestyle of watching their food intake more carefully and increasing their physical activity - this is tough but little in life is easy or fair.

- - - Updated - - -

And your suggestion are NO guarantee to result in weigh loss OR better health since it a very small portion of the overall picture. That is all I'm saying.

Actually mortality rates are lowest for those having a "BMI" of overweight or slightly obese. Just an FYI.

You are right about this, depending on what you mean by "slightly obese". Personally, I think that the charts that list normal, overweight, and obese based on BMI are more arbitrary choices based on fashion more than reason. "Normal" is and has historically been what these charts would label "overweight".

Either way, no one once in this thread said 'eating junk' is just fine and dandy. No one said 'give up exercise' either. However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

I think you are here talking about judgementalism, not whether or not the advice given to someone who is obese and really wants to lose weight is valid.

As has been amply documented by several people "justifying" obesity, different people have different metabolisms, so a lifestyle that works at keeping one person trim can result in another living the same lifestyle becoming obese. This being true means that if someone is obese and really wants to lose weight then they will have to adopt a different lifestyle of watching their food intake more carefully and increasing their physical activity - this is tough but little in life is easy or fair.

 

[Playball40]

Ok, I'll play.

1. Overweight does not necessarily mean out of shape so I cannot answer.
2. There is no such thing as "junk" calories so I cannot answer.
3. People should engage in physical activity IF they are able to do so and do so without jeopardizing their health.
4. Please define HEALTH.
5. Again, I would need to know your definition of HEALTHY before I could say if I "know what it takes"
6. Losing weight does not equal improving health so I cannot answer

Does it make you feel better to keep repeating this pablum? It is actually very clear you did not read the full article EricK posted, or if you did you simply rejected it as you have rejected every fact that refutes your tightly-held faith-based belief.

Perhaps you should fill in the blanks:

It is not my fault that I am overweight and out of shape because ___________________.

It is not in my power to stop eating junk calories because __________________________.

I do not engage in physical activity because _________________________.

My poor health is not my fault because _________________________.

I talk about getting healthy and I know what it takes, but I do little or nothing toward that end because ___________________.

It is not possible for me to lose weight and improve my health because _________________________.

Sorry, it's just the old coach/athlete in me. I could dress that all up in pretty talk but you just can't eat pretty, as they say.

Many people are of the mindset that they can't address a single problem because they can't address the totality of the problem. That whole fairness schtick, and comforting for sure. It just doesn't get anything done.

 

[skepticalbip]

Actually the BMI charts changed in 1998. "Normal" is now the SMALLEST group. However, I agree the BMI calculation is arbitrary and was NEVER MEANT TO MEASURE AN INDIVIDUAL OR DETEMINE HEALTH.

Actually mortality rates are lowest for those having a "BMI" of overweight or slightly obese. Just an FYI.

You are right about this, depending on what you mean by "slightly obese". Personally, I think that the charts that list normal, overweight, and obese based on BMI are more arbitrary choices based on fashion more than reason. "Normal" is and has historically been what these charts would label "overweight".

Either way, no one once in this thread said 'eating junk' is just fine and dandy. No one said 'give up exercise' either. However, I will defend forever and LOUDLY the erroneous misinformation surrounding obesity. I will condemn forever and loudly those that want to point fingers and claim "just eat less...sheesh" or imply overweight people are just lazy, gluttons who lack self control.

I think you are here talking about judgementalism, not whether or not the advice given to someone who is obese and really wants to lose weight is valid.

As has been amply documented by several people "justifying" obesity, different people have different metabolisms, so a lifestyle that works at keeping one person trim can result in another living the same lifestyle becoming obese. This being true means that if someone is obese and really wants to lose weight then they will have to adopt a different lifestyle of watching their food intake more carefully and increasing their physical activity - this is tough but little in life is easy or fair.

And your suggestion are NO guarantee to result in weigh loss OR better health since it a very small portion of the overall picture. That is all I'm saying.

It would be a very rare outlier for it not to work and I can't think of one.

You are dealing with the flip side of this. Your daughter, in order to gain weight, has to adopt a different lifestyle of ingesting a volume of calories well, well above the "normal" and to restrict activity to well below "normal". And thankfully this alternate lifestyle seems to be working for her. I wish her well.

As for someone who is obese and wants to lose weight, their lifestyle change needs to be in the opposite direction. Millions of people have done it successfully - I only know a few of them personally but everyone I know who has tried and stuck with it has been successful. It is a lot of work and requires a lot of physical exercise. The "downside" seems to be that they eventually get to really enjoy the exercise. An ex-obese mechanical engineer I once worked with grew to enjoy it so much that she quit her engineering job and became a very successful aerobics instructor.