I have a question about reducing the work week

[Loren Pechtel]

Just because you said so doesn't make it true. I've found the IRS rules generally make a lot of sense when you actually dig into them. There are cases that are crap from Washington but most of the complexity I have encountered is about ensuring fairness, not about crap.

Bullshit. Complicated tax code can not be fair, because only rich can really take advantage of the complexity.

I don't know about the business world but in looking at individual returns most bits of complexity come down to closing loopholes or ensuring a dollar is taxed exactly once.

Sorry, but I've had to work with accounting a fair amount as many of the outputs of my program were inputs to theirs. I pushed a lot of data their way and accepted some back--and never once were taxes involved other than as a budget line (for the FICA costs of employee labor, something where there's no avoiding.)

Bullcrap. Simple tax code will kill all accounting, without any adverse effect. In fact there will be a number of positive effects from kicking bean counters out of the picture

Calling it bullcrap doesn't change the reality. I was describing my interactions with the accounting department--they were all about costs, never about paying less tax. Or consider the many hours every two weeks doing payroll--sure, the computer does the calculations but there were plenty of job sheets that had to be checked (do they have the proper sign-offs) and entered. Every check that came in from the contractors meant the associated commissions had to be calculated and paid. Employee expense reports had to be processed.

Yes, Wall Street is 100% bad guys.

Remove Wall Street and would go back to an era of sole proprietorships. Nothing big would ever get done.

And I did not suggest no politicians. I suggested no career politicians.

Unfortunately, at the higher levels that's pretty much how it has to be.

The guy who goes off to Congress for two years and then goes home sounds good--except it's not.

1) You really want to start them off with no experience??

2) The reality is that they're out of the labor force for some years--and thus will have a hard time finding a new job in any field you need to keep current in.

Yes I want people without experience in the bullshit which goes on in there.

And I suppose you want an intern to do your heart operation?

(That sort of thing really happened in China in the cultural revolution.)

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Let's say Congress passed, and the President signed a law mandating a 30-hour work week. Anything worked over 30 hours a week would be subject to overtime pay requirements like we do now with the 40 hour work week.

How would this actually work?

Would hourly wages remain the same so now you have to make due on 10 hours less a week in earning? Or would wages get adjusted so if you were making $500/week working 40 hours you'd still earn $500/week working 30 hours?

The French did this a few years ago. How did they work this?

 

[barbos]

Just because you said so doesn't make it true. I've found the IRS rules generally make a lot of sense when you actually dig into them. There are cases that are crap from Washington but most of the complexity I have encountered is about ensuring fairness, not about crap.

Bullshit. Complicated tax code can not be fair, because only rich can really take advantage of the complexity.

I don't know about the business world but in looking at individual returns most bits of complexity come down to closing loopholes or ensuring a dollar is taxed exactly once.

Average american is not capable to fill tax return, otherwise we would not be having this conversation about accountants.

Sorry, but I've had to work with accounting a fair amount as many of the outputs of my program were inputs to theirs. I pushed a lot of data their way and accepted some back--and never once were taxes involved other than as a budget line (for the FICA costs of employee labor, something where there's no avoiding.)

Bullcrap. Simple tax code will kill all accounting, without any adverse effect. In fact there will be a number of positive effects from kicking bean counters out of the picture

Calling it bullcrap doesn't change the reality.
I was describing my interactions with the accounting department--they were all about costs, never about paying less tax. Or consider the many hours every two weeks doing payroll--sure, the computer does the calculations but there were plenty of job sheets that had to be checked (do they have the proper sign-offs) and entered. Every check that came in from the contractors meant the associated commissions had to be calculated and paid. Employee expense reports had to be processed.

You are not refuting me at all with this.

Yes, Wall Street is 100% bad guys.

Remove Wall Street and would go back to an era of sole proprietorships. Nothing big would ever get done.

Don't be so sure.

And I did not suggest no politicians. I suggested no career politicians.

Unfortunately, at the higher levels that's pretty much how it has to be.

The guy who goes off to Congress for two years and then goes home sounds good--except it's not.

1) You really want to start them off with no experience??

2) The reality is that they're out of the labor force for some years--and thus will have a hard time finding a new job in any field you need to keep current in.

Yes I want people without experience in the bullshit which goes on in there.

And I suppose you want an intern to do your heart operation?

(That sort of thing really happened in China in the cultural revolution.)

Congress is not a rocket surgery.
Take away corruption and slightly above average Joe will be able to work there part time just fine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just because you said so doesn't make it true. I've found the IRS rules generally make a lot of sense when you actually dig into them. There are cases that are crap from Washington but most of the complexity I have encountered is about ensuring fairness, not about crap.

Bullshit. Complicated tax code can not be fair, because only rich can really take advantage of the complexity.

I don't know about the business world but in looking at individual returns most bits of complexity come down to closing loopholes or ensuring a dollar is taxed exactly once.

Average american is not capable to fill tax return, otherwise we would not be having this conversation about accountants.

I've filled in several over the years before switching to computers. Just read the directions and do it--nothing hard. Addition, subtraction, the occasional multiplication.

You are not refuting me at all with this.

I'm telling you about my experiences in working with the accounting department.

Remove Wall Street and would go back to an era of sole proprietorships. Nothing big would ever get done.

Don't be so sure.

You have shown that you don't understand how economic systems work.

Congress is not a rocket surgery.
Take away corruption and slightly above average Joe will be able to work there part time just fine.

When someone knows nothing of how to do a task they often see it as easy. That doesn't make it so.

 

[barbos]

Just because you said so doesn't make it true. I've found the IRS rules generally make a lot of sense when you actually dig into them. There are cases that are crap from Washington but most of the complexity I have encountered is about ensuring fairness, not about crap.

Bullshit. Complicated tax code can not be fair, because only rich can really take advantage of the complexity.

I don't know about the business world but in looking at individual returns most bits of complexity come down to closing loopholes or ensuring a dollar is taxed exactly once.

Average american is not capable to fill tax return, otherwise we would not be having this conversation about accountants.

I've filled in several over the years before switching to computers. Just read the directions and do it--nothing hard. Addition, subtraction, the occasional multiplication.

You do realize that you contradict yourself? If it's so easy why all these accountants?

You are not refuting me at all with this.

I'm telling you about my experiences in working with the accounting department.

You have no relevant experience.

Remove Wall Street and would go back to an era of sole proprietorships. Nothing big would ever get done.

Don't be so sure.

You have shown that you don't understand how economic systems work.

No, it is you who have shown that.

Congress is not a rocket surgery.
Take away corruption and slightly above average Joe will be able to work there part time just fine.

When someone knows nothing of how to do a task they often see it as easy. That doesn't make it so.

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

 

[DBT]

The French did this a few years ago. How did they work this?

From what I've heard reported, productivity in France hasn't suffered because of the shorter working hours.

 

[barbos]

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

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Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

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Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

There's nothing on there that a simple calculator can't handle. Unless you have messy investment situations the instructions are quite clear. If you can actually *DO* 8th grade math you can do a tax return.

 

[J842P]

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

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Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

There's nothing on there that a simple calculator can't handle. Unless you have messy investment situations the instructions are quite clear. If you can actually *DO* 8th grade math you can do a tax return.

It's a red-herring anyway. The idea that accountants only exist because the tax code is too complex for individuals file their income taxes is nonsensical. Accountants exist to record, monitor, and communicate a business's financial information. Although currently most of the recording work (book-keeping) has been replaced by computer systems, accountants are still an essential part of almost any business, especially complex corporate entities.

 

[Bronzeage]

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

- - - Updated - - -

Right, filing tax return you said was easy.

Anyway, this is a derail. My point was that increased productivity with fixed work hours leads to unemployment and ridiculous occupations, and it still stands

I'm not coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has no idea of how to do it, I'm coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who has done it successfully.

You are minority then, as I said majority of americans can't do it.

There's nothing on there that a simple calculator can't handle. Unless you have messy investment situations the instructions are quite clear. If you can actually *DO* 8th grade math you can do a tax return.

It's a red-herring anyway. The idea that accountants only exist because the tax code is too complex for individuals file their income taxes is nonsensical. Accountants exist to record, monitor, and communicate a business's financial information. Although currently most of the recording work (book-keeping) has been replaced by computer systems, accountants are still an essential part of almost any business, especially complex corporate entities.

I filled out my income tax forms from when I was in high school, all the way up until I started using a CPA to do my business returns(sales tax, payroll tax, social security, etc). Doing one's own taxes gives a great advantage in discussions about tax reform. Back in the late 80's, someone asked me how I felt about Clinton's tax hike. I said, "If it costs me half as much as Reagan's tax cut, I'll be happy." Since I did my own taxes, I knew when I paid more, or when I paid less.

There is a tax service in the building next to me, and several more in the surrounding blocks. In January, I see dozens of people waiting to file their return. I know these people do not have complicated tax problems(provided they paid last years taxes). Anyone of them could file the short form and be done in about 10 minutes. The tax service offers a quick refund, which is to say, a quick loan. I don't know what the standard fee is for the return and the loan, but I do know this: The tax offices lease space for the entire year, but are only open for about 12 to 15 weeks. They pay the rent for an entire year, with the receipts of three and half months business.

A CPA's function in the modern world is to put their hand on the return, the report, the statement, the whatever, and say, "This is correct and right." That is his/her job, in much the same way a doctor is expected to keep a person healthy, even if it means telling the patient not to do certain things, which seem like a lot of fun.

 

[J842P]

A CPA's function in the modern world is to put their hand on the return, the report, the statement, the whatever, and say, "This is correct and right." That is his/her job, in much the same way a doctor is expected to keep a person healthy, even if it means telling the patient not to do certain things, which seem like a lot of fun.

That is a great way to put it.

 

[barbos]

It's a red-herring anyway. The idea that accountants only exist because the tax code is too complex for individuals file their income taxes is nonsensical. Accountants exist to record, monitor, and communicate a business's financial information. Although currently most of the recording work (book-keeping) has been replaced by computer systems, accountants are still an essential part of almost any business, especially complex corporate entities.

This is true only in theory, In practice however, accountants are not hired to do that (unless of course you are degenerate who happened to have a business, pretty rare occasion). Accountants are hired to devise complicated and legally dubious schemes to avoid paying taxes.
In a perfect world Apple, Google, GM, would not have been able to avoid taxes and replaced their accountants by simple software.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a red-herring anyway. The idea that accountants only exist because the tax code is too complex for individuals file their income taxes is nonsensical. Accountants exist to record, monitor, and communicate a business's financial information. Although currently most of the recording work (book-keeping) has been replaced by computer systems, accountants are still an essential part of almost any business, especially complex corporate entities.

I've been trying to get that across, he isn't listening.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I filled out my income tax forms from when I was in high school, all the way up until I started using a CPA to do my business returns(sales tax, payroll tax, social security, etc). Doing one's own taxes gives a great advantage in discussions about tax reform. Back in the late 80's, someone asked me how I felt about Clinton's tax hike. I said, "If it costs me half as much as Reagan's tax cut, I'll be happy." Since I did my own taxes, I knew when I paid more, or when I paid less.

Yeah. People saw the tax rate drop, they didn't pay attention to the other changes. Reagan's "tax cut" was pretty close to revenue neutral.

There is a tax service in the building next to me, and several more in the surrounding blocks. In January, I see dozens of people waiting to file their return. I know these people do not have complicated tax problems(provided they paid last years taxes). Anyone of them could file the short form and be done in about 10 minutes. The tax service offers a quick refund, which is to say, a quick loan. I don't know what the standard fee is for the return and the loan, but I do know this: The tax offices lease space for the entire year, but are only open for about 12 to 15 weeks. They pay the rent for an entire year, with the receipts of three and half months business.

Yeah, the interest rate on the refund loans is insane.

A CPA's function in the modern world is to put their hand on the return, the report, the statement, the whatever, and say, "This is correct and right." That is his/her job, in much the same way a doctor is expected to keep a person healthy, even if it means telling the patient not to do certain things, which seem like a lot of fun.

It's more than that--they actually look into the numbers to make sure they're right.

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It's a red-herring anyway. The idea that accountants only exist because the tax code is too complex for individuals file their income taxes is nonsensical. Accountants exist to record, monitor, and communicate a business's financial information. Although currently most of the recording work (book-keeping) has been replaced by computer systems, accountants are still an essential part of almost any business, especially complex corporate entities.

This is true only in theory, In practice however, accountants are not hired to do that (unless of course you are degenerate who happened to have a business, pretty rare occasion). Accountants are hired to devise complicated and legally dubious schemes to avoid paying taxes.
In a perfect world Apple, Google, GM, would not have been able to avoid taxes and replaced their accountants by simple software.

Continuing to claim this doesn't make it so.

What's your actual experience with accounting?

 

[barbos]

Continuing to claim this doesn't make it so.

You should know, you have a lot experience in that area

What's your actual experience with accounting?

I file my own taxes. And once laughed at one guy who let an accountant to do it for him.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You should know, you have a lot experience in that area

What's your actual experience with accounting?

I file my own taxes. And once laughed at one guy who let an accountant to do it for him.

Then why do you think they're so hard?


And since it appears your only accounting experience is with taxes I can see why you think accounting is just taxes. That doesn't make it so.

How about balancing your checkbook? That's accounting.

How about paying your bills? That's accounting.

 

[barbos]

You should know, you have a lot experience in that area

What's your actual experience with accounting?

I file my own taxes. And once laughed at one guy who let an accountant to do it for him.

Then why do you think they're so hard?

I did not say it was hard (for me).
For me it was stupid. Tax code is stupid and pointlessly complicated.

And since it appears your only accounting experience is with taxes I can see why you think accounting is just taxes. That doesn't make it so.

How about balancing your checkbook? That's accounting.

How about paying your bills? That's accounting.

LOL, I did not think it was worth mentioning.
I don't know anybody who does not do it by themselves (as you can see I don't have many celebrity friends)
Certainly it is easier than filing taxes.
And taxes is much more closely related to what professional accountants do in real world.

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You should know, you have a lot experience in that area

What's your actual experience with accounting?

I file my own taxes. And once laughed at one guy who let an accountant to do it for him.

Then why do you think they're so hard?

I did not say it was hard (for me).
For me it was stupid. Tax code is stupid and pointlessly complicated.

And since it appears your only accounting experience is with taxes I can see why you think accounting is just taxes. That doesn't make it so.

How about balancing your checkbook? That's accounting.

How about paying your bills? That's accounting.

LOL, I did not think it was worth mentioning.
I don't know anybody who does not do it by themselves (as you can see I don't have many celebrity friends)
Certainly it is easier than filing taxes.
And taxes is much more closely related to what professional accountants do in real world.

 

[Malintent]

There is already a loophole that most large restaurants exploit, with respect to minimum wage requieremnts (and hours worked). They track how much money (wage + tips) each server is earning thoughout the workday, and if they are not meeting minimum wage, they get sent home (losing the rest of potential pay for the day). The proposed change would just make this worse for the employee.