who is a muslim?

[DrZoidberg]

i dont read books

The Quran is a book. Don't you read the Quran?

and i dont think ghazali said this

So where do you think these ideas come from?

Hint: it's not the Quran.

He famously said it in the work تهافت الفلاسفة (The Incoherence of the Philosophers). It's a very lengthy work, but you've summed up his argument nicely.

EVERY knowledge that human have math, science, art, languages are given by god to human

human are like robot, god's programed our brain with 1000s of software and our software in our brain gave us ability to walk, talk, dance, write,read, see, smell, hear,feel pain, feel happy, feel sad, calculate, do math, love, INVENT, and with limited free will

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

we are robot with LIMITED free will ( god did not surprised when we invented iphone or computer or walked on the moon )

Let's test this. I've now invented a completely new God, the great Flarmgd. I can make the exact same argument as you regarding for the existence of Flarmgd and that the whole universe are Flarmgders and it's supported by the exact same arguments.

So what have you managed to prove? The existence of Allah or Flarmgd?

 

[Syed]

i was born to sunni family

Barbarian
Interesting choice of words, with no clear implication for the present. For instance I was born into a Christian family but I'm not a Christian. Are you still considering yourself a Sunni? (For the purposes of this discussion let's just consider Wahhabis to be Sunnis; after all, they aren't that far from their source, the madhhab or ibn Hanbal.)

prophet mohammed was not sunni nor shia so i am not any of those and also dont believe in school of thought madhab like prophet, nor i am trying to invent my own cult

 

[DrZoidberg]

nor i am trying to invent my own cult

That's what all cult leaders say they aren't doing

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian
Interesting choice of words, with no clear implication for the present. For instance I was born into a Christian family but I'm not a Christian. Are you still considering yourself a Sunni? (For the purposes of this discussion let's just consider Wahhabis to be Sunnis; after all, they aren't that far from their source, the madhhab or ibn Hanbal.)

prophet mohammed was not sunni nor shia so i am not any of those and also dont believe in school of thought madhab like prophet, nor i am trying to invent my own cult

OK. I mean, it's your right as a Muslim to come up with your own interpretations, but it makes for a more difficult discussion because we have to go through a checklist to figure out what you believe in; it would be easier if there was a school or denomination you could point us towards.

Anyway, Allah's omnipotence seems to be well-established in the Qur'an, and omniscience follows from omnipotence (he can make himself omniscient). Don't you feel like you are contradicting it when you claim he does not foresee our choices?

 

[iolo]

As with all such arguments, I'd say that anyone was a Muslim who says he is, and, as with all such arguments, many members of the group will instantly deny it. People seem to be like that, unfortunately.

 

[Syed]

the quran does not gave any detail about what is Al-Qadar, muslim scholars come up with their own understanding and makes lot of mistakes

Barbarian
I almost started here to defend those scholars, because although you are right that al-Qadar is not in the Qur'an, it still is based on the Qur'an. Basically, those islamic scholars whose views won in the end thought they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience and free will, and they chose the latter.

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

 

[DrZoidberg]

Barbarian
I almost started here to defend those scholars, because although you are right that al-Qadar is not in the Qur'an, it still is based on the Qur'an. Basically, those islamic scholars whose views won in the end thought they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience and free will, and they chose the latter.

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

Welcome to the paradox of omniscience. He knows everything. So he can't chose not to know. Also the paradox of omnipotence. "can god create a stone so heavy he can't lift it"

Syed, the problem is unsolvable. The greatest minds in theology and philosophy have tried to solve this since Aristotle. We're nowhere nearer solving it now than Aristotle was. If all these guys couldn't solve it, what makes you so sure you can?

Yes, there's a conflict between omniscience and free will. Congratulations for spotting it. But you didn't solve it. Since God can't chose not to know. That's what omniscience means.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Barbarian
I almost started here to defend those scholars, because although you are right that al-Qadar is not in the Qur'an, it still is based on the Qur'an. Basically, those islamic scholars whose views won in the end thought they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience and free will, and they chose the latter.

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

I think your definition of Moslem is not per my understanding. A Moslem (definition one who submits to God) is a follower of Islam. Islam was founded by Muhammad whose members only worship one God of the Moslems, Jews and Christians.

 

[Syed]

here is MY understanding of Al-Qadar

all human will died is Al-Qadar

judgement day is Al-Qadar

all human get sickness is Al-Qadar ( that does not mean god make you sick )

all human will die and resurrect again is Al-Qadar

all human will go to either heaven or hell Al-Qadar

their are many more thing about Al-Qadar


a individual will not go to hell or heaven as a predestination

Barbarian
So basically it is preordained that shit shall happen in general, but no particular person is coerced by Allah's will into any one of the possible outcomes?

YES, except freewill to choose heaven and hell

Barbarian
As in, humans in general will end up in either Heaven or Hell but Allah did not make a separate predetermination as to where every particular person is going?

YES free choice

Barbarian
There shall be sickness in the world by Allah's decree, but no particular individual is determined by Allah to become sick, it just happens according to happenstance?

NO, allah made human weak so prone to sickness

Actually, I think I could argue that holding this opinion is tantamount to the greater shirk.

shirk mean a helper beside god

 

[Barbarian]

Actually, I think I could argue that holding this opinion is tantamount to the greater shirk.

shirk mean a helper beside god

That's surprising. I did not think the very definition of shirk was in question. It's the highest form of blasphemy in Islam, that of believing anything or anyone sharing God's exclusive attributes. I don't think you can find a different definition anywhere.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Barbarian
So basically it is preordained that shit shall happen in general, but no particular person is coerced by Allah's will into any one of the possible outcomes?

YES, except freewill to choose heaven and hell

Barbarian
As in, humans in general will end up in either Heaven or Hell but Allah did not make a separate predetermination as to where every particular person is going?

YES free choice

No, it's not a free choice. A free choice can only be made when one is in possession of all the facts. Regarding "heaven" and "hell", we have no facts, only speculation, stories and baseless assertions. Those are no basis on which to make a "free choice" about anything.

 

[Syed]

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

I think your definition of Moslem is not per my understanding. A Moslem (definition one who submits to God) is a follower of Islam. Islam was founded by Muhammad whose members only worship one God of the Moslems, Jews and Christians.

i agree with your definition of muslems

 

[Syed]

The Quran is a book. Don't you read the Quran?

and i dont think ghazali said this

So where do you think these ideas come from?

Hint: it's not the Quran.

He famously said it in the work تهافت الفلاسفة (The Incoherence of the Philosophers). It's a very lengthy work, but you've summed up his argument nicely.

EVERY knowledge that human have math, science, art, languages are given by god to human

human are like robot, god's programed our brain with 1000s of software and our software in our brain gave us ability to walk, talk, dance, write,read, see, smell, hear,feel pain, feel happy, feel sad, calculate, do math, love, INVENT, and with limited free will

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

we are robot with LIMITED free will ( god did not surprised when we invented iphone or computer or walked on the moon )

Let's test this. I've now invented a completely new God, the great Flarmgd. I can make the exact same argument as you regarding for the existence of Flarmgd and that the whole universe are Flarmgders and it's supported by the exact same arguments.

So what have you managed to prove? The existence of Allah or Flarmgd?

you dont believe in Flarmgd so why i wast my time with you?

 

[Syed]

prophet mohammed was not sunni nor shia so i am not any of those and also dont believe in school of thought madhab like prophet, nor i am trying to invent my own cult

OK. I mean, it's your right as a Muslim to come up with your own interpretations, but it makes for a more difficult discussion because we have to go through a checklist to figure out what you believe in; it would be easier if there was a school or denomination you could point us towards.

Anyway, Allah's omnipotence seems to be well-established in the Qur'an, and omniscience follows from omnipotence (he can make himself omniscient). Don't you feel like you are contradicting it when you claim he does not foresee our choices?

if god foresee our choices than human NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

 

[atrib]

OK. I mean, it's your right as a Muslim to come up with your own interpretations, but it makes for a more difficult discussion because we have to go through a checklist to figure out what you believe in; it would be easier if there was a school or denomination you could point us towards.

Anyway, Allah's omnipotence seems to be well-established in the Qur'an, and omniscience follows from omnipotence (he can make himself omniscient). Don't you feel like you are contradicting it when you claim he does not foresee our choices?

if god foresee our choices than human NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

You finally get it. The god of the Quran is described as being omnipotent and omniscient. Therefore, free will in humans does not exist. Moreover, in order for humans to exercise free will, they need access to all the information required to make the appropriate decisions which would ultimately determine whether they get to heaven or hell, which they have not been provided. Therefore, the god described in the Quran does not exist. Welcome to atheism.

 

[Syed]

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

Welcome to the paradox of omniscience. He knows everything. So he can't chose not to know. Also the paradox of omnipotence. "can god create a stone so heavy he can't lift it"

Syed, the problem is unsolvable. The greatest minds in theology and philosophy have tried to solve this since Aristotle. We're nowhere nearer solving it now than Aristotle was. If all these guys couldn't solve it, what makes you so sure you can?

Yes, there's a conflict between omniscience and free will. Congratulations for spotting it. But you didn't solve it. Since God can't chose not to know. That's what omniscience means.

why do you think that?

 

[Barbarian]

OK. I mean, it's your right as a Muslim to come up with your own interpretations, but it makes for a more difficult discussion because we have to go through a checklist to figure out what you believe in; it would be easier if there was a school or denomination you could point us towards.

Anyway, Allah's omnipotence seems to be well-established in the Qur'an, and omniscience follows from omnipotence (he can make himself omniscient). Don't you feel like you are contradicting it when you claim he does not foresee our choices?

if god foresee our choices than human NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

Right. This is why Sunni scholars insist that we have free will; otherwise the entire setup is just a farce and Allah would be responsible for people ending up in Hell, despite him being ar-rahman ar-rahim. The responsibility must be shifted back to people. But since Allah is also omniscient, these same scholars were uneasy about announcing a limitation of his knowledge concerning our decisions. They 'solved' the issue by declaring these two contradictory claims to be in fact reconciliable, just not by human intellect. To you, avoiding the contradiction seems to be more important than preserving Allah's absolute omniscience; they thought they'd rather assume the burden of keeping a contradiction in the system and insisting it's solvable.

Did you argue this with any of your fellow Muslims? How was it received?

 

[Barbarian]

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

So he could know my choices but chose not to look? The world is such that my choices could conceptually be foreseen perfectly, it's just that the only entity capable of doing it doesn't do it? Then the world is deterministic, because otherwise there's no single 'future' to be foreseen, regardless whether someone foresees it or not. IOW no free will, not in a deterministic world.

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

So Allah creates humans, then tests them via life to see who's worthy? He could simply look at the man and figure out whether this one goes up or down, but he decides not to and instead makes the man go through the test of life? I understand you need this explanation because it's a fact that we are living our lives, but you do realize Allah would have no reason (as the Qur'an says, everything is equally easy for him) to go down this path since he could just look and see who's worthy?

The best counterargument I've come up so far - in lieu of theists - to this approach was that we aren't living our lives. What we think of as our lives is in fact God looking and knowing what we are worth. We only exist in his thoughts; what we think is existence is simply his knowledge of what would existence feel like if it was real. (Disclaimer: since this sounds much like Chassidic Jewish mystique, I'm not entirely sure I came up with it and did not hear it as a kid; I'm straight outta from Satmar-the-city after all.) But this is not what the books teach, so if any theist tried it, I'd just counter that it is an obvious attempt to salvage at least some recognizable sort of deity even if the sole source for the existence of deities, the texts, have to be jettisoned in the process.

 

[Methinx]

A very old problem:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"


( 11th century Omar Khayyam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam )

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Quran is a book. Don't you read the Quran?



So where do you think these ideas come from?

Hint: it's not the Quran.

He famously said it in the work تهافت الفلاسفة (The Incoherence of the Philosophers). It's a very lengthy work, but you've summed up his argument nicely.

EVERY knowledge that human have math, science, art, languages are given by god to human

human are like robot, god's programed our brain with 1000s of software and our software in our brain gave us ability to walk, talk, dance, write,read, see, smell, hear,feel pain, feel happy, feel sad, calculate, do math, love, INVENT, and with limited free will

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

we are robot with LIMITED free will ( god did not surprised when we invented iphone or computer or walked on the moon )

Let's test this. I've now invented a completely new God, the great Flarmgd. I can make the exact same argument as you regarding for the existence of Flarmgd and that the whole universe are Flarmgders and it's supported by the exact same arguments.

So what have you managed to prove? The existence of Allah or Flarmgd?

you dont believe in Flarmgd so why i wast my time with you?

Is the existence of Allah dependent on your belief in him? Would Allah exist even if nobody believed in him? If yes, then belief in Flarmgd is irrelevant. Only that it has the same logical structure. Which it does.