who is a muslim?

[DrZoidberg]

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

Welcome to the paradox of omniscience. He knows everything. So he can't chose not to know. Also the paradox of omnipotence. "can god create a stone so heavy he can't lift it"

Syed, the problem is unsolvable. The greatest minds in theology and philosophy have tried to solve this since Aristotle. We're nowhere nearer solving it now than Aristotle was. If all these guys couldn't solve it, what makes you so sure you can?

Yes, there's a conflict between omniscience and free will. Congratulations for spotting it. But you didn't solve it. Since God can't chose not to know. That's what omniscience means.

why do you think that?

Either God knows all or he doesn't. If he doesn't he isn't omniscient and therefore not God. I didn't make the rules. Muhammad did. He just didn't think it through enough

 

[Syed]

shirk mean a helper beside god

That's surprising. I did not think the very definition of shirk was in question. It's the highest form of blasphemy in Islam, that of believing anything or anyone sharing God's exclusive attributes. I don't think you can find a different definition anywhere.

i agree

did i misunderstood you?

 

[Syed]

YES, except freewill to choose heaven and hell

Barbarian
As in, humans in general will end up in either Heaven or Hell but Allah did not make a separate predetermination as to where every particular person is going?

YES free choice

No, it's not a free choice. A free choice can only be made when one is in possession of all the facts. Regarding "heaven" and "hell", we have no facts, only speculation, stories and baseless assertions. Those are no basis on which to make a "free choice" about anything.

i am talking about what we believe to be true for us

 

[Syed]

if god foresee our choices than human NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

Right. This is why Sunni scholars insist that we have free will; otherwise the entire setup is just a farce and Allah would be responsible for people ending up in Hell, despite him being ar-rahman ar-rahim. The responsibility must be shifted back to people. But since Allah is also omniscient, these same scholars were uneasy about announcing a limitation of his knowledge concerning our decisions. They 'solved' the issue by declaring these two contradictory claims to be in fact reconciliable, just not by human intellect. To you, avoiding the contradiction seems to be more important than preserving Allah's absolute omniscience; they thought they'd rather assume the burden of keeping a contradiction in the system and insisting it's solvable.

allah is all knowing all powerful he can chose something not to know
can he do that? yes he can

Did you argue this with any of your fellow Muslims? How was it received?

muslims do like MY understanding of islam BUT hesitate to agree with me, you know human are like sheep follow tradition

i do respect scholars and their teaching and also reject some of their understanding of islam

 

[Barbarian]

That's surprising. I did not think the very definition of shirk was in question. It's the highest form of blasphemy in Islam, that of believing anything or anyone sharing God's exclusive attributes. I don't think you can find a different definition anywhere.

i agree

did i misunderstood you?

Possibly the misunderstanding was on my side: I thought when you posted 'shirk mean a helper beside god' that you were saying shirk is not bad. 'Helper' was perhaps a poor choice of word, as it has positive connotations, inadequate in this context. Usually 'shirk' is translated as 'association' or 'associating', and even then one needs the context to know that this is meant to be a negative thing.

 

[Barbarian]

Right. This is why Sunni scholars insist that we have free will; otherwise the entire setup is just a farce and Allah would be responsible for people ending up in Hell, despite him being ar-rahman ar-rahim. The responsibility must be shifted back to people. But since Allah is also omniscient, these same scholars were uneasy about announcing a limitation of his knowledge concerning our decisions. They 'solved' the issue by declaring these two contradictory claims to be in fact reconciliable, just not by human intellect. To you, avoiding the contradiction seems to be more important than preserving Allah's absolute omniscience; they thought they'd rather assume the burden of keeping a contradiction in the system and insisting it's solvable.

allah is all knowing all powerful he can chose something not to know
can he do that? yes he can

Sure, he could, but why would he? What is, from his point of view, the difference between letting people drag themselves through life to help him find out their worthiness and between him simply choosing to look and see?

Did you argue this with any of your fellow Muslims? How was it received?

muslims do like MY understanding of islam BUT hesitate to agree with me, you know human are like sheep follow tradition

Yeah, no illusions from my part there. I asked you because I was curious how much latitude one has arguing such questions, or whether people are interested in details like these at all.

 

[Syed]

A very old problem:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"


( 11th century Omar Khayyam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam )

you made all excuses to denied god

and do all evil for fun

hell is just

 

[Syed]

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

Barbarian
So he could know my choices but chose not to look?

big NO, freewill mean god does not know your choice going to be

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

Barbarian
So Allah creates humans, then tests them via life to see who's worthy?

thats corrects

 

[Syed]

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad

they had to choose between a limitation of Allah (not knowing beforehand our free choices) and an unresolvable contradiction between Allah's omniscience

allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

Welcome to the paradox of omniscience. He knows everything. So he can't chose not to know. Also the paradox of omnipotence. "can god create a stone so heavy he can't lift it"

Syed, the problem is unsolvable. The greatest minds in theology and philosophy have tried to solve this since Aristotle. We're nowhere nearer solving it now than Aristotle was. If all these guys couldn't solve it, what makes you so sure you can?

Yes, there's a conflict between omniscience and free will. Congratulations for spotting it. But you didn't solve it. Since God can't chose not to know. That's what omniscience means.

why do you think that?

Either God knows all or he doesn't. If he doesn't he isn't omniscient and therefore not God. I didn't make the rules. Muhammad did. He just didn't think it through enough

i am here to tell you how do i understand god and islam, god is all knowing and god gave freewill to human and god does not know how human will choose their freewill

your understanding of omniscient is YOUR not mine

 

[Syed]

i agree

did i misunderstood you?

Possibly the misunderstanding was on my side: I thought when you posted 'shirk mean a helper beside god' that you were saying shirk is not bad. 'Helper' was perhaps a poor choice of word, as it has positive connotations, inadequate in this context. Usually 'shirk' is translated as 'association' or 'associating', and even then one needs the context to know that this is meant to be a negative thing.

in the quran allah said who is your helper beside me? there are muslims who believe that prophet muhammed will help or save them from hell but that is a shirk

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian
So he could know my choices but chose not to look?

big NO, freewill mean god does not know your choice going to be

Hmmm. He could not both give us free will and foresee our actions? I know it's illogical but isn't he omnipotent? Does he have to respect the rules of logic?

 

[Brian63]

god is all knowing and…god does not know…

Comments like that do not add up very well. I realize there is a lot there which I did not quote and you think somehow accounts for the statement and makes it coherent, but none of it really does. If you say that the god is all knowing and then in the same breath you also claim there is something that the god does not know, it is you who is not making much sense.

In addition, on a more personal note Syed, I just wanted to suggest that if you really want to make a substantive and persuasive case for any belief or opinion you hold, you would probably be better off if you wrote it out in a little more depth, rather than a lot of one-liners and cheap shots and vague/ambiguous comments that routinely require others to ask you for clarification or guess wrong about what you are arguing. Just try typing as much out as you can to define your viewpoint and also to support your viewpoint (with evidence, logic, etc.). People will take greater pleasure in debating you and watching you debate as well, than just relying mostly on these quick comebacks with little content. I really do hope the best for you here, and would like to see you improve in this area. It might be more fun for you too if you succeed.

Take care,

Brian

 

[abaddon]

allah is all knowing all powerful he can chose something not to know
can he do that? yes he can

Wouldn’t Allah have to know a thing in order to choose to un-know it and then keep knowing it, in spite of the willed act of unknowing, in order to not accidentally come to know what he doesn’t want to know?

muslims do like MY understanding of islam BUT hesitate to agree with me, you know human are like sheep follow tradition

So you're a thinker and not a blind-faith believer. But thinking up different weird stories than the sheep’s weird stories is an attempt at thought that has failed.

A very old problem:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"


( 11th century Omar Khayyam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam )

you made all excuses to denied god

and do all evil for fun

hell is just

Um, did you just say that atheists “deny” god and they do evil for fun and hell is a just punishment for them? But not if all things in God's creation are in submission to God and God intended his creation to be as it is!

Barbarian
So Allah creates humans, then tests them via life to see who's worthy?

thats corrects

If he made them both free and flawed then, if they turn out "unworthy", isn’t that Allah’s fault for putting the flaws into his robots? That we have flawed natures, according to theism, makes it a sure thing that some people will make poor choices even if they are free choices.

The robots in a simple computer game that don’t perform well are simply redesigned by their human makers to be better. Why does god make his robots in an imperfect way and then, instead of improve them, choose to torture them when they do not perform well? Now, DO NOT say he doesn’t want to because he knew before he made them that he’d be torturing some of them, so he damn well chose to torture human souls and if he did it without wanting to then that’s another problem for how all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good God is supposed to be.

If you’re a thinker, Syed, a man with a mind of his own, then you need to face the contradictions honestly. I see no honor in simply hand-waving the contradictions away. If God doesn't pan out when a thinker thinks about God, then there's a problem with the belief in God itself.

 

[atrib]

Barbarian
So he could know my choices but chose not to look?

big NO, freewill mean god does not know your choice going to be

In your very first post you told us that everything that humans do is the will of Allah.

( human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do )

You now claim that humans have free will. These statements are contradictory, and you are obviously confused, perhaps just beginning to realize the import of these contradictions. The Allah you believe in cannot exist. Do you understand why?

Let me give you an example so you understand what I am saying. The following is an all too common story in hardline Islamic countries:

Rafi Khan kills his daughter Aisha by stoning her to death because Aisha talked to their neighbor's boy Salim.

Based on your statement:

syed: human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do

Aisha could only have talked to Salim because Allah intended it to happen.
Rafi Khan could only kill his daughter in a barbaric way because Allah intended it to happen.

Aisha and Rafi Khan had no choice in the matter, i.e., they had no free will.

Do you understand the contradiction in your beliefs now?

 

[Syed]

allah is all knowing all powerful he can chose something not to know
can he do that? yes he can

Barbarian
Sure, he could, but why would he? What is, from his point of view

good question

god has only one job is to create

he created millions of different of creatures but god wanted to create a creature who is intellectual, who could use brain and built civilization that is human

human is the only creature design by god to read, to write, to invent, to built university, to cure diseases themselves

so if human choose to do good god will reward him/her paradise

 

[atrib]

Barbarian
Sure, he could, but why would he? What is, from his point of view

good question

god has only one job is to create

he created millions of different of creatures but god wanted to create a creature who is intellectual, who could use brain and built civilization that is human

human is the only creature design by god to read, to write, to invent, to built university, to cure diseases themselves

so if human choose to do good god will reward him/her paradise

That is impossible. Because you have told us that humans can only do what god intended us to do in your very first post in this thread.

syed: human can NOT do anything that god's didn't INTENDED us to do

Humans could never murder and rape other humans unless god intended humans to murder and rape other humans. Humans commit evil because god intended them to commit evil, and they have no choice in the matter. Everything humans do is the will of Allah.

Do you understand the contradiction inherent to your beliefs now?

 

[Syed]

god is all knowing and…god does not know…

Comments like that do not add up very well. I realize there is a lot there which I did not quote and you think somehow accounts for the statement and makes it coherent, but none of it really does. If you say that the god is all knowing and then in the same breath you also claim there is something that the god does not know, it is you who is not making much sense.

In addition, on a more personal note Syed, I just wanted to suggest that if you really want to make a substantive and persuasive case for any belief or opinion you hold, you would probably be better off if you wrote it out in a little more depth, rather than a lot of one-liners and cheap shots and vague/ambiguous comments that routinely require others to ask you for clarification or guess wrong about what you are arguing. Just try typing as much out as you can to define your viewpoint and also to support your viewpoint (with evidence, logic, etc.). People will take greater pleasure in debating you and watching you debate as well, than just relying mostly on these quick comebacks with little content. I really do hope the best for you here, and would like to see you improve in this area. It might be more fun for you too if you succeed.

Take care,

Brian

thanks for good advice

 

[Syed]

big NO, freewill mean god does not know your choice going to be

Hmmm. He could not both give us free will and foresee our actions? I know it's illogical but isn't he omnipotent? Does he have to respect the rules of logic?

good question

YES indeed

god is a ENGINEER not a magician

god can not make human to live on the sun

if god want a creature to live on the sun, he have to create a non biological creature who could survived on the sun

god can not create a biological human without brain

 

[Methinx]

A very old problem:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"


( 11th century Omar Khayyam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyam )

you made all excuses to denied god

and do all evil for fun

hell is just

You make all excuses to invent god.

I don't do evil for fun, my parents taught me to be honest, not to be pious.
If you never have any fun I feel sorry for you.
Hell is just...the Bogeyman for adults.

Invent what you will....but remember this: A 'Creator' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious idiot.