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FBI recommends no charges against Mrs Clinton: let the accusations begin. Will this help or hurt HRC?

I've read that the pertinent law being looked at was 18 USC 793(f) which reads:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

I don't see anything about intent in that law. But then legal words seem to sometimes not mean what normal english readers may assume so any lawyers around that can interpret this for us and let us know if you think Comey was right for basing his non-recommendation for criminal indictment on Clinton's lack of intent?
 
People don't like immigrants, gays, want to turn the clock back to when *those people* didn't have rights, etc... -> Brexit, rise of far right-wing parties in Europe, Trump candidacy, etc...

This anti-establishment stuff isn't about the system protecting it's own... it is about the establishment not giving the majority group within a nation all the power and the right to exclude people they don't like from the system.

That's one way it's expressing itself. The other is the rise of politicians like Sanders and Corbyn. I just hope the Sanders/Corbyn side is able to win out over the Trump/Farage side.
Who? Sanders is a bump, was effective in shifting the platform a little, but otherwise just a bump in the road. In this country, no one cares what progressives think until the issue actually affects them personally. You'll notice how tea baggers were able to elect people to office. No such thing from the Occupy movement.
 
Today,
.Mr. Comey rebuked Mrs. Clinton as being “extremely careless” in using a personal email address and server for sensitive information, declaring that an ordinary government official could have faced administrative sanction for such conduct.

To warrant a criminal charge, Mr. Comey said, there had to be evidence that Mrs. Clinton intentionally sent or received classified information — something that the F.B.I. did not find. “Our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case,” he said at a news conference.
(source: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/us/politics/hillary-clinton-fbi-email-comey.html.

Of course, this will not stop the Hillary haters from their accusations of conspiracies or cover-ups or whatever, but do you think this ends up helping, hurting or doing nothing for Mrs. Clinton campaign for the POTUS?

I think it hurts her but no more than she has already been hurt by the issue. So relatively I don't think it's changing much with the exception that Trump is now out of the negative news cycle. If he can just shut up for a month his polls might improve, but that's like asking your pet dog to stop humping your favorite stuffed animal. So I'd still bet it has no overall effect.
 
I've read that the pertinent law being looked at was 18 USC 793(f) which reads:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

I don't see anything about intent in that law. But then legal words seem to sometimes not mean what normal english readers may assume so any lawyers around that can interpret this for us and let us know if you think Comey was right for basing his non-recommendation for criminal indictment on Clinton's lack of intent?

The parts I bolded would probably imply intent in this case, which the director said was not present. I think typically in cases such as this, the person would lose their IT privileges, and/or their clearance, which in most cases would mean they would lose their job. Appointees are in a different category as are elected officials as we have seen in the past-if you recall the Valerie Plame incident, for example.

Regardless, in cases like this, where no intent for espionage is involved, you would be hard pressed to find a case where any criminal prosecution took place.
 
I've read that the pertinent law being looked at was 18 USC 793(f) which reads:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

I don't see anything about intent in that law. But then legal words seem to sometimes not mean what normal english readers may assume so any lawyers around that can interpret this for us and let us know if you think Comey was right for basing his non-recommendation for criminal indictment on Clinton's lack of intent?

I posted the various definitions of "gross negligence" in another thread

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...-t-amp-amp-*!-stop-giving&p=307303#post307303

It's what they can't prove and they know it.
 
Other countries politicians and security agencies are corrupt, but American ones aren't.

if the American people saw something corrupt they would rise up and...er...vote for Trump :D
 
Richard Nixon breaks into a DNC compound, lies about it, and walks away with a pardon. Ronald Reagan orchestrates a scheme to network money to pirates and never even gets questioned - when it was fucking obvious he was in on it. George Bush is literally caught torturing people and breaking all kinds of laws, and the right didn't blink an eye. Oh, and lets see: Iraq War, Scooter Libby, Bain Capital, all of the Reagan scandals.

Clinton lies about some emails that we have NO evidence contain anything criminal, and the right calls for her head?:rolleyes:

I'm not saying Clinton isn't corrupt but this idea that she's the worst criminal to run for office, is beyond dramatic to say the least, and it's completely partisan.
None of the other Presidents you mention were doing that stuff before they ran for office.

She appears, based on what you said, to be the worst one running for office with every prospect she will do worse things than the others once she is in office.
It's amusing to see people admitting Hillary is a liar and corrupt but so keen to see her as President.

I guess once she becomes President she will stop lying and stop being corrupt
 
My reading of his statement suggests none of the data when she sent it was so marked at the time she sent it. He distinguishes classified by responsible authorities which often occurs after it is seen by top officials but before it is finalized as classified by the responsible agent.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...lary-clintons-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system

From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.

My reading of Comey's statement is that the 110 were properly classified at the time they were sent. There were another 2,000 that were classified at a later date.

So she may have played a bit fast and loose as the state Department seems to often do, but. she apparently acted within the existing culture.

Not sure that should be an acceptable excuse or particularly laudable.

He also went on to say
Separately, it is important to say something about the marking of classified information. Only a very small number of the e-mails containing classified information bore markings indicating the presence of classified information. But even if information is not marked “classified” in an e-mail, participants who know or should know that the subject matter is classified are still obligated to protect it.
 
Mr. Comey rebuked Mrs. Clinton as being “extremely careless” in using a personal email address and server for sensitive information, declaring that an ordinary government official could have faced administrative sanction for such conduct.

To warrant a criminal charge, Mr. Comey said, there had to be evidence that Mrs. Clinton intentionally sent or received classified information — something that the F.B.I. did not find. “Our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case,” he said at a news conference.

Being cleared of criminal charges helps. Being called extremely careless by an FBI investigation doesn't. Do you really want an extremely careless president? Oh wait, its her or Trump, you are fucked either way.

I will take HRC's level of "extreme carelessness" over Trump any day and twice on Sundays
 
I'm with you buddy. :commiserate:
same here

but we are going to get all uppity over Clinton have a private email server? This is going to start the revolution?

I didn't say it would start anything. And I'm not getting uppity about anything. I simply said it's an example of the system protecting its own and that the rise of anti-establishmentism shouldn't be that surprising as more and more people see the system working for the powerful while continually discarding the weak.
The rise of anti-establishmentism is more about people against minorities and shit. #BLM movement is toothless and no one cares. It hasn't made a dent in anything. The Occupy movement, people mocked and absolutely no change.

People don't like immigrants, gays, want to turn the clock back to when *those people* didn't have rights, etc... -> Brexit, rise of far right-wing parties in Europe, Trump candidacy, etc...

This anti-establishment stuff isn't about the system protecting it's own... it is about the establishment not giving the majority group within a nation all the power and the right to exclude people they don't like from the system.

That's one way it's expressing itself. The other is the rise of politicians like Sanders and Corbyn. I just hope the Sanders/Corbyn side is able to win out over the Trump/Farage side.

I think (hope) we are moving in the direction of the Sanders, Corbyn, Warren type people to rise - but it won't be this election cycle. This cycle it will be Trump vs Clinton at the top of the ticket. The only way we will inch closer to the progressive left is to vote for Clinton but continue to push her towards Sanders, Corbyn, Warren et.al. by voicing our support of them over her. She follows the polls. We need to make sure the polls keep reflecting stringly progressive values.

And I do think Occupy and #BLM help. Perhaps the actual on-the-street protests generate snickers with establishment and the right-wing; but the ideas resonate. More importantly, leaders have come out of those movements. Real leaders - not Derec's boogymen - people like Alexis Goldstein who was the co-author of the "Occupy the SEC" policy papers and is currently working with Americans for Financial Reform ("a coalition of over 250 organizations spearheading a campaign for real reform in our banking & financial systems").
 
Other countries politicians and security agencies are corrupt, but American ones aren't.

if the American people saw something corrupt they would rise up and...er...vote for Trump :D

Why would we vote for the most corrupt person of all?

Oh right, you are just one Putin fan-boy supporting another.
 
I was thinking about this more yesterday and here are some things that bother me about this whole situation:

1) Hillary said she sent no emails that were classified at the time she sent them.

The FBI found 110 emails that were properly classified at the time they were sent.

2) Hillary said she only used one device.

Director Comey said she used multiple devices.

3) Hillary said her system was never hacked.

Director Comey said her system was very open to be hacked even though they didn't find any evidence and other people that Hillary had been emailing with had been hacked.

4) Hillary said her team turned over all work related emails.

Director Comey said there were thousands of work related emails that were not turned over and instead were deleted and her lawyers even made sure they were not forensically recoverable.

5) Director Comey said they had evidence that statutes were violated (i.e. that the law was broken) but didn't think that was prosecutable and then said if similar evidence was found in a different case involving a different person they might recommend prosecution which sounds to me like a gross unfair system where it might matter who you are than what you may have done.

Taken all together Hillary either lied to us when she made these statements or she's incompetent. Either option makes me depressed that this was the best the Democratic Party thought they could do and she should thank her lucky stars that it's Trump she's facing because any other Republican nominee would probably have beat her.
 
Taken all together Hillary either lied to us when she made these statements or she's incompetent. Either option makes me depressed that this was the best the Democratic Party thought they could do and she should thank her lucky stars that it's Trump she's facing because any other Republican nominee would probably have beat her.
She lied, it is depressing. It doesn't appear she broke the rule of law enough to be actually chargeable. And no, it is unlikely any Republican from the current party could beat her, still.
 
Other countries politicians and security agencies are corrupt, but American ones aren't.

if the American people saw something corrupt they would rise up and...er...vote for Trump :D
To be fair, I think more Republicans didn't vote for Trump than Democrats didn't vote for Clinton. However, more Democrats voted for a true alternative to the establishment (Sanders), than the Republicans... who had no actual alternative to the establishment.

Us Democrats are stuck with Clinton, much like we were stuck with Obama, and likely be stuck with Booker in 2024.
 
I was thinking about this more yesterday and here are some things that bother me about this whole situation:

1) Hillary said she sent no emails that were classified at the time she sent them.

The FBI found 110 emails that were properly classified at the time they were sent.
HRC said there were no emails marked as classified. Coney said that whether or not they were marked as such, HRC knew or should have known.

I think HRC is engaged in a bit of verbal slight-of-hand, and it does not reflect well on her, but at the same time - 110 emails (in 52 email chains) out of nearly 4,000 over several years... I am not going to assume lying when an imperfect memory is a more likely explanation.

I also find it telling that it was 110 emails in 52 email chains, approximately 2 per chain... enough for someone to send something sensitive and the other person to say "get thee to a secure communications device". Not enough for a lengthy/detailed discussion. (Do we have any 2 post threads around here? :D )

2) Hillary said she only used one device.

Director Comey said she used multiple devices.
He also said she used the servers sequentially, retiring one as the next was brought on line.

3) Hillary said her system was never hacked.

Director Comey said her system was very open to be hacked even though they didn't find any evidence and other people that Hillary had been emailing with had been hacked.
The bolded supports what HRC said. The bit in italics is what bothers me. It is my understanding (from various news reports) is that if she had been using state department equipment, it would not have allowed properly marked classified material to be sent to an unsecured recipient.

There are still a lot of loopholes in there. First and foremost being that government servers are just as vulnerable to hacking (and perhaps better known targets than a mystery bathroom server). Her using the state department system would have been more of a CYA move than any genuine increase in security, I think.

Second, I haven't read whether someone can send classified information TO the state department email addresses, only that it couldn't be sent out. Since we don't know whether HRC initiated or received the 110 emails in question, we really don't know if a state department system would have made a difference.

4) Hillary said her team turned over all work related emails.

Director Comey said there were thousands of work related emails that were not turned over and instead were deleted and her lawyers even made sure they were not forensically recoverable.
You are conflating unrelated parts of what Director Comey said. It is true that thousands of work-related emails were not turned over, but the FBI knows that because they DID recover them from HRC's servers. He also said directly and clearly that he does not believe the existence of undisclosed emails indicated any sort of a cover-up as the email headers did not appear to be work-related. He also said that of the recovered emails there was only 1 or 2 that were sensitive, the vast majority were the types of emails that would be routinely deleted over time with no nefarious intent.

As to her lawyers, it was their OWN law office servers they wiped. That would be SOP for most lawyers, not just hers. Some of my clients are attorneys, and from my (admittedly limited) experience, law offices take email security very seriously - clearly more so than HRC did while she was in the state department.

5) Director Comey said they had evidence that statutes were violated (i.e. that the law was broken) but didn't think that was prosecutable and then said if similar evidence was found in a different case involving a different person they might recommend prosecution which sounds to me like a gross unfair system where it might matter who you are than what you may have done.
Please quote where he said that, as I don't remember anything like it.

Taken all together Hillary either lied to us when she made these statements or she's incompetent.
Or, more likely, her memory is imperfect (as is normal for all humans) while her instinct to secrecy and self-preservation is beyond what is normal (though perhaps understandable given what she and her husband have endured at the hands of the Republicans for almost their entire political lives)

Either option makes me depressed that this was the best the Democratic Party thought they could do and she should thank her lucky stars that it's Trump she's facing because any other Republican nominee would probably have beat her.
On this we agree unequivocally.
 
HRC said there were no emails marked as classified.

That's an odd thing for Hillary to say. People would ordinarily know that there are topics that are classified in addition to documents marked etc. It sounds a bit too nuanced and so looks CYA instead of actually fully addressing the issue.
 
I've read that the pertinent law being looked at was 18 USC 793(f) which reads:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

I don't see anything about intent in that law. But then legal words seem to sometimes not mean what normal english readers may assume so any lawyers around that can interpret this for us and let us know if you think Comey was right for basing his non-recommendation for criminal indictment on Clinton's lack of intent?

Obviously "negligence" has absolutely nothing whatever to do with "intent". That was just Comey's fig leaf.

What Comey's statement boils down to is our currently leading presidential candidate is a lying liar with extremely poor judgement who managed to avoid felony charges over the difference between "extreme carelessness" and "gross negligence". Huzzah. The system works. A great day for America.
 
HRC said there were no emails marked as classified.

That's an odd thing for Hillary to say. People would ordinarily know that there are topics that are classified in addition to documents marked etc. It sounds a bit too nuanced and so looks CYA instead of actually fully addressing the issue.

I agree, and said so:
I think HRC is engaged in a bit of verbal slight-of-hand, and it does not reflect well on her

So did Director Comey indirectly when he said HRC and staff "knew or should have known"
 
And the investigations continue. Comey is being called before congress tomorrow. :rolleyes:
 
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