Poor white people

[DrZoidberg]

Another good podcast. This time from London School of Economics. This talk is about a guy who went around interviewing poor white people (in the UK and USA) to ask them what they thought was wrong with the world and how the world has changed. The same researcher has done similar studies on poor Muslims (not immigrants). Interesting talk. Just some basic info on how Trump could win and how the fuck Brexit happened. The most interesting thing for me was when he talked about "authenticity". They felt that their country had lost authenticity. Of course bullshit, since it assumes there's some way a country should be, and that once upon a time it was. Like LARPers they're swooning about a past that never was. The interesting bit was the concrete formulations.

It's also interesting how these people really weren't privileged by life. If they were they were certainly low on evidence. In fact they felt unfairly treated. Of course they weren't. Dunning-Kruger paradox. Today you need a higher education to be successful in the jobs market, and these people didn't have that. When he interviewed poor Muslims they were saying the same thing. They thought they couldn't get jobs because of racism. When the truth was that they didn't have higher education, and that was why. But the perception pushed them towards radical Islam. I like how he tied it all up in a neat narrative.

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=3661

Thoughts?

 

[DBT]

Today you need a higher education to be successful in the jobs market, and these people didn't have that.

I think that's true, but on the other hand there are a limited number of positions as Lawyers, Doctors, etc, law firms tend to skim the cream of the crop with the surplus of law graduates left to fend for themselves, drive taxis or whatever.

Plus traditional jobs such as manufacturing has largely shifted overseas, retail work mechanized/computerized, which further restricts options for school leavers and those who may not have the aptitude or inclination to consider a profession....and what if they did? Would there be positions available for full employment within that sector?

 

[zorq]

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

To me, it seems likely that the poor have never actually been "represented" by the elite. Perhaps what has really changed over the past 30 years is that the illusion of "representation" that had worked before is unraveling.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Today you need a higher education to be successful in the jobs market, and these people didn't have that.

I think that's true, but on the other hand there are a limited number of positions as Lawyers, Doctors, etc, law firms tend to skim the cream of the crop with the surplus of law graduates left to fend for themselves, drive taxis or whatever.

Plus traditional jobs such as manufacturing has largely shifted overseas, retail work mechanized/computerized, which further restricts options for school leavers and those who may not have the aptitude or inclination to consider a profession....and what if they did? Would there be positions available for full employment within that sector?

Let's be honest about the situation. There is more money and more jobs available today then there ever has been. The wheels of commerce have never before been spinning as fast.

The feeling that things are bad now is just a feeling. Things really are great, if you've figured out how this new world works. The reality is that things are, generally, better than ever. The problem is that the jobs market is changing.

Before you just needed to have the right attitude. Some eagerness to learn and can-do spirit. Today companies are so desperate to find people that you don't need that anymore. Today you just need to be qualified. For the qualified, life has never before been as easy. The IT market is still expanding. It expands exponentially based on numbers of graduates. The more IT graduates the greater the shortage of IT graduates. But if you're not qualified this whole world is closed to you. If you're not qualified you're just shit out of luck.

Throughout human history doing what your parents did was always a safe bet for the coward or the lazy. Today it's the recipe for guaranteed failure. What he was saying in the lecture is that these poor white people want back to the old shitty world. They're just unable or unwilling to adapt to the new, better, reality.

 

[DBT]

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

To me, it seems likely that the poor have never actually been "represented" by the elite.

Never seen it. Only lip service when lip service is needed, which funnily enough coincides with election time. Or a public display of generous donations to a worthy cause, sometimes by genuinely caring people (some who donate anonymously)...but this does not address the fundamental problem.

 

[DBT]

Before you just needed to have the right attitude. Some eagerness to learn and can-do spirit. Today companies are so desperate to find people that you don't need that anymore. Today you just need to be qualified. For the qualified, life has never before been as easy. The IT market is still expanding. It expands exponentially based on numbers of graduates. The more IT graduates the greater the shortage of IT graduates. But if you're not qualified this whole world is closed to you. If you're not qualified you're just shit out of luck.

Not only the right attitude but the right aptitude and interest. The IT market may be expanding (with other sectors shrinking), but they may have trouble attracting the right applicants because only a certain percentage of students have the aptitude and/or interest in IT. It's not for everyone.

 

[barbos]

I think that's true, but on the other hand there are a limited number of positions as Lawyers, Doctors, etc, law firms tend to skim the cream of the crop with the surplus of law graduates left to fend for themselves, drive taxis or whatever.

Plus traditional jobs such as manufacturing has largely shifted overseas, retail work mechanized/computerized, which further restricts options for school leavers and those who may not have the aptitude or inclination to consider a profession....and what if they did? Would there be positions available for full employment within that sector?

Let's be honest about the situation. There is more money and more jobs available today then there ever has been. The wheels of commerce have never before been spinning as fast.

The feeling that things are bad now is just a feeling. Things really are great, if you've figured out how this new world works. The reality is that things are, generally, better than ever. The problem is that the jobs market is changing.

Before you just needed to have the right attitude. Some eagerness to learn and can-do spirit. Today companies are so desperate to find people that you don't need that anymore. Today you just need to be qualified. For the qualified, life has never before been as easy. The IT market is still expanding. It expands exponentially based on numbers of graduates. The more IT graduates the greater the shortage of IT graduates. But if you're not qualified this whole world is closed to you. If you're not qualified you're just shit out of luck.

Throughout human history doing what your parents did was always a safe bet for the coward or the lazy. Today it's the recipe for guaranteed failure. What he was saying in the lecture is that these poor white people want back to the old shitty world. They're just unable or unwilling to adapt to the new, better, reality.

Please curb your optimism, I want to throw up.

 

[barbos]

Before you just needed to have the right attitude. Some eagerness to learn and can-do spirit. Today companies are so desperate to find people that you don't need that anymore. Today you just need to be qualified. For the qualified, life has never before been as easy. The IT market is still expanding. It expands exponentially based on numbers of graduates. The more IT graduates the greater the shortage of IT graduates. But if you're not qualified this whole world is closed to you. If you're not qualified you're just shit out of luck.

Not only the right attitude but the right aptitude and interest. The IT market may be expanding (with other sectors shrinking), but they may have trouble attracting the right applicants because only a certain percentage of students have the aptitude and/or interest in IT. It's not for everyone.

Exactly. And this desire to force everyone into IT has a side effect of lowering average and actually make it harder for more qualified people to succeed, they are simply overwhelmed by mediocre careerists.

 

[DrZoidberg]

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

To me, it seems likely that the poor have never actually been "represented" by the elite. Perhaps what has really changed over the past 30 years is that the illusion of "representation" that had worked before is unraveling.

Depends what you mean. Representation is a vague concept. How do we measure the degree to which you are represented?

I'd argue that it's the feeling of being represented that is important. That's what it means to be represented. There is nothing beneath it.

We all know that everybody, including politicians, are just barely holding it together. We're all muddling through lifehoping that the choices we made were good. I'm convinced that no politician feels like they talk for people. I'm pretty sure they're reading the news, like the rest of us, trying to keep up with the zeitgeist. Hoping they won't get left behind at the next turn.

 

[iolo]

Manifestly the majority of people are of no interest to those who run our societies, and are at best manipulated by liars like Trump, Here, Bliar's theory when he destroyed the Labour Party was that they had no-one else to vote for. He was, of course, wrong - they vote fascist (BNP here, Trump there). The difficulty is that politics is now seen entirely as a career, rather than as a chance to change things or appease a social conscience, so the politicians have to lie to an electorate they regard merely as a lot of mugs. People don't like being treated as a lot of mugs, even if they are.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Manifestly the majority of people are of no interest to those who run our societies, and are at best manipulated by liars like Trump, Here, Bliar's theory when he destroyed the Labour Party was that they had no-one else to vote for. He was, of course, wrong - they vote fascist (BNP here, Trump there). The difficulty is that politics is now seen entirely as a career, rather than as a chance to change things or appease a social conscience, so the politicians have to lie to an electorate they regard merely as a lot of mugs. People don't like being treated as a lot of mugs, even if they are.

I see a lot of complaining from you. What's your solution? I think you're wrong btw. I think you're overly simplistic to the point where it just becomes wrong. I suspect you've read something reasoned and well thought out but failed to retell it. Because this ain't winning any arguments for you.

- - - Updated - - -

Before you just needed to have the right attitude. Some eagerness to learn and can-do spirit. Today companies are so desperate to find people that you don't need that anymore. Today you just need to be qualified. For the qualified, life has never before been as easy. The IT market is still expanding. It expands exponentially based on numbers of graduates. The more IT graduates the greater the shortage of IT graduates. But if you're not qualified this whole world is closed to you. If you're not qualified you're just shit out of luck.

Not only the right attitude but the right aptitude and interest. The IT market may be expanding (with other sectors shrinking), but they may have trouble attracting the right applicants because only a certain percentage of students have the aptitude and/or interest in IT. It's not for everyone.

Sure, but these people have to do something. Something is better than nothing. Right now they're doing nothing. Why not aim to have a job you're bad at, rather than no job?

 

[barbos]

Sure, but these people have to do something. Something is better than nothing. Right now they're doing nothing. Why not aim to have a job you're bad at, rather than no job?

That will work great for doctor and airline pilot jobs
Or president, or anything really.
Speaking of bad IT workers. Porn site was hacked with a bunch of Pentagon and White house people account hacked. You know why? they say because these idiot IT monkeys used MD5 hash which was cracked ages ago

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have limited skills and am under-educated... damn Obama and Clinton!

Also, no one works in the cities, people only work in the economically bustling middle of no where.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have limited skills and am under-educated... damn Obama and Clinton!

Also, no one works in the cities, people only work in the economically bustling middle of no where.

I'm not saying there are no jobs for people like you. I'm just saying there aren't as many as their used to be. It should be, damn those robots and computers.

 

[SimpleDon]

Another good podcast. This time from London School of Economics. This talk is about a guy who went around interviewing poor white people (in the UK and USA) to ask them what they thought was wrong with the world and how the world has changed. The same researcher has done similar studies on poor Muslims (not immigrants). Interesting talk. Just some basic info on how Trump could win and how the fuck Brexit happened. The most interesting thing for me was when he talked about "authenticity". They felt that their country had lost authenticity. Of course bullshit, since it assumes there's some way a country should be, and that once upon a time it was. Like LARPers they're swooning about a past that never was. The interesting bit was the concrete formulations.

It's also interesting how these people really weren't privileged by life. If they were they were certainly low on evidence. In fact they felt unfairly treated. Of course they weren't. Dunning-Kruger paradox. Today you need a higher education to be successful in the jobs market, and these people didn't have that. When he interviewed poor Muslims they were saying the same thing. They thought they couldn't get jobs because of racism. When the truth was that they didn't have higher education, and that was why. But the perception pushed them towards radical Islam. I like how he tied it all up in a neat narrative.

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=3661

Thoughts?

I tried to listen to the podcast but it was no use, I couldn't understand them well enough.

It is true that the world is leaving increasing numbers of people behind. The poorly educated and the rural and the intercity populations.

It is also true that the modern industrial economy produces an ever increasing surplus of goods and services above the basic human needs for survival. This converts into an ever increasing surplus of money.

This means that there is room for a solution. More than there ever has been in history. But our policies are now set to do the opposite, to increase distance between the haves and the have nots.

Where is this surplus going?

A sizable portion of it is sitting in the accounts in off shore tax haven banks. Vastly more money than could ever be loaned out. More than could ever be invested. More than could even be spent by the wealthy incredibly small portion of humanity to whom it belongs.

It is estimated to be in region of 21 trillion dollars, more than the annual GDP of the United States.

A thoughtful society would be working hard to expand educational opportunities for the have nots. At least in the US we are doing the opposite. The schools in the areas that we should be concentrating our largest efforts on have the least amount of money. This is because of the way that we finance the schools.

 

[funinspace]

I have limited skills and am under-educated... damn Obama and Clinton!

Also, no one works in the cities, people only work in the economically bustling middle of no where.

I'm not saying there are no jobs for people like you. I'm just saying there aren't as many as their used to be. It should be, damn those robots and computers.

I think something got lost in the sarcasm router....damn those UDP packets....Jimmy is an enGineer, unless he has been a fibbin.

 

[bilby]

The new element in this problem is not that poor people are not being represented by the powerful - they never were. The cause of their angst is that they now expect to be represented by the powerful, and are upset that it isn't happening.

People are now asked for their opinion constantly. Nobody ever used to care what the proletariat were thinking, unless they were actively engaged in violent revolt. And of course, that's still true of those in power - they couldn't care less, and never did. But every time people are exposed to information these days, they are given a space to make their own (usually valueless) opinion publicly known - most news articles come with comment options; many include utterly unrepresentative and pointless polls; and Facebook and Twitter allow everybody who wishes to do so to make their point in a public forum.

Back in the day, when someone didn't like a government policy, they had the choice of writing to their representative (who they expected to fob them off with a stock reply letter); writing to the newspapers (who would only publish a handful of letters, and vetted them to some extent for reasonableness and clarity); or grumbling to their mates (who they knew were in no better position to influence change than the grumbler himself). But now, people get lots and lots of opportunities to push their opinions - and as most people firmly believe that they are right, and that every reasonable person would agree with them if only they had the chance to say their piece, they are devastated when the government fails to conform to their opinion.

People have the ability to be heard publicly in a way that they never had before; And they are shocked to discover that this ability has made almost no difference to anything. It is far more hurtful to the ego to be asked and then ignored than it was to simply never be asked. Back in the day, you could console yourself that the reason that the government didn't (for example) simply set fire to refugees in public to discourage illegal immigration, was that only you and your mates down the pub were sufficiently ingenious to come up with this fairly obvious solution to the nation's woes.

Now you get to see that you, and the majority of your echo-chamber dwellers, are not voiceless - but your voice is being disregarded. That hurts. Previously they were simply not hearing you, but now they are hearing what you say, and actively discarding your advice, which is tantamount to calling you stupid.

 

[prideandfall]

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

Thoughts?

poor white people are fucking idiots, political elites did not represent them 30 years ago - in fact, overall they represented them even less than they do now.

also, i can't help but dispute the whole "you need a higher education to get a job" thing, even though i know it's anecdotal and the sample size is too small.
my circle of direct peers and myself all have high school (or less) levels of education and all make over 50k a year, and each of us either had an idea of what we wanted and just sort of slid into it, or stumbled into our careers by accident.

my view is that opportunity is far more important than education, and that education only starts to become relevant when opportunity is scarce.
this plays out in the real world: small rural BFE towns with no opportunity are full of poor people who are too uneducated to get any of the rare decent jobs, because those are in positions that require education.
whereas us city folk have so many opportunities for jobs that give varied experience and skillsets we can kind of flop our way through our teens and twenties and wind up with a reasonably viable set of job skills.

 

[Elixir]

To sum it up, poor white people don't feel represented by the political elites. Thirty years ago they did. Today they don't. Problem.

Thoughts?

poor white people are fucking idiots, political elites did not represent them 30 years ago - in fact, overall they represented them even less than they do now.

also, i can't help but dispute the whole "you need a higher education to get a job" thing, even though i know it's anecdotal and the sample size is too small.
my circle of direct peers and myself all have high school (or less) levels of education and all make over 50k a year, and each of us either had an idea of what we wanted and just sort of slid into it, or stumbled into our careers by accident.

my view is that opportunity is far more important than education, and that education only starts to become relevant when opportunity is scarce.
this plays out in the real world: small rural BFE towns with no opportunity are full of poor people who are too uneducated to get any of the rare decent jobs, because those are in positions that require education.
whereas us city folk have so many opportunities for jobs that give varied experience and skillsets we can kind of flop our way through our teens and twenties and wind up with a reasonably viable set of job skills.

I largely agree. Bilby's post speaks to the dynamic in play as well - people prefer to be unheard vs heard and ignored. Now they feel ignored, and they're pretty mad about it.
One point though - education fails by teaching facts and stuff. Opportunity relates to the ability to learn, and our ed system teaches to tests, and ignores the importance of teaching how to learn almost entirely. Anecdotally, I and my slightly more educated partners (I'm a high school dropout, but none of the three of us are college grads) have created our own opportunities in this rural area-full-of-uneducated-people, by conceiving of a business and starting it on a shoestring. It took several years of hand-to-mouth living, but now we all make a more than adequate living, and employ some 20 odd other people at what is an actual living wage. None of us knew jack about doing what we do now - we have had to learn. Probably not typical, but I put that down to the failed educational system.

 

[TSwizzle]

I tried to listen to the podcast but it was no use, I couldn't understand them well enough.

It descended into a lot of navel gazing pretty quickly, then I bailed.