Why create the damned?

[WAB]

The whole business about "the elect" is more or less exclusive to Calvinists, isn't it? I know that covers a number of denominations, but still, I don't think it's fair to paint all Christians with this broad brush.

Actually, if one believes in a temporally omniscient god, god already knows who the "winners and losers" are. All that has to be done then is to replace the losers with agents who play the role the losers would have played.

This is actually an interesting theory, which has been talked about for years: Maybe we're in a super-advanced game or program, and the 'suffering masses' are just sprites that haven't really suffered, we just think they have, from our perspective.

Of course, this is a grave and colossal insult to the millions of real individuals who have suffered throughout humanity's ugly history. If this is a game, I would sure like to know it. I won't treat it as a game unless and until I wake up in a vat somewhere, and KNOW I'm in a vat.

 

[WAB]

Heh, good one.
You're worried about an insult to a god that solves the problem of grown men being taunted by children with sending bears to tare them up.

But being unfair is somehow beneath him...

Of course I'm worried! Who wouldn't be! What if the universe actually IS run by a sadistic super being? I don't think that's the case, as I've been careful to point out.

'Heh' is one of the more annoying cliches on the Internet. It's close to 'um', and 'erm' in sheer lack of creativity and communicative power.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Heh, good one.
You're worried about an insult to a god that solves the problem of grown men being taunted by children with sending bears to tare them up.

But being unfair is somehow beneath him...

Of course I'm worried! Who wouldn't be! What if the universe actually IS run by a sadistic super being?

Then that worry would be completely separate from a worry about whether or not he could be insulted by pointing out that he's been exhibiting dickish behavior.

I don't think that's the case, as I've been careful to point out.

Yes, you have. It's just funny how anyone could read The Books and decide that the guy who considers genocide 'plan B' is someone they want to admire.

'Heh' is one of the more annoying cliches on the Internet. It's close to 'um', and 'erm' in sheer lack of creativity and communicative power.

It doesn't communicate that i laughed lightly at your post? I mean, it's a word, with a meaning. "used typically to indicate interrogation and often to express scorn, amusement, or surprise."
How odd that i used the word i wanted to express my intended meaning, well within the parameters of scholarly definition, and you view it as a 'cliche.'

Maybe i should take the cheap internet apologist route and just start using random words, and then get upset when you don't grok or you mistake my banana in conversation?
That's more of a 'cliche,' in my humble autocollimator.

 

[DBT]

If an Omniscient/Omnipotent Being created the World, the World and its events unfold in precisely the way it was intended. Each and every act that an agent makes was known by the OOB long before the act of creation, in fact it must always have been known, a condition that makes any reference or use of the term 'free will' absurd.

 

[Kharakov]

Of course I'm serious, and don't call me Shirley.

So I shouldn't call you Dockeen?

 

[Kharakov]

The whole business about "the elect" is more or less exclusive to Calvinists, isn't it? I know that covers a number of denominations, but still, I don't think it's fair to paint all Christians with this broad brush.

No. Martin Luther was explicit. Free will is impossible. See his book "Bondage of the will". As were a lot of theologians following Luther/Calvin. Arminians believe in free will. Methodists follow Arminianism.

Yeah dummy. Free will has nothing to do with will that is formed by experience- which your will is. No excuse except idiocy when one does evil. Free will is constrained by knowledge- have you had a good time at any point in your life? You've learned how to act in some small situation.

 

[DBT]

''Free will'' constrained by 'knowledge,' determinism, environment, unchosen genetic conditions, neural architecture, shaped by social and cultural conditioning and life events, looks more like....

 

[dockeen]

Of course I'm serious, and don't call me Shirley.

So I shouldn't call you Dockeen?

I take it you haven't seen "Airplane"

 

[dockeen]

Heh, good one.
You're worried about an insult to a god that solves the problem of grown men being taunted by children with sending bears to tare them up.

But being unfair is somehow beneath him...

Of course I'm worried! Who wouldn't be! What if the universe actually IS run by a sadistic super being? I don't think that's the case, as I've been careful to point out.

'Heh' is one of the more annoying cliches on the Internet. It's close to 'um', and 'erm' in sheer lack of creativity and communicative power.

If the universe is being run by an evil being, well, let's face it, odds are you are screwed.

I would submit that a god who is worried about any insults I might throw in his direction has definite security issues.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I would submit that a god who is worried about any insults I might throw in his direction has definite security issues.

Not at all. I was all set to burn out a Red Ant hill in my back yard this one time, but i heard a little black ant say i was being a dick, so i dumped the entire can of gasoline on HIS hill and it burned for fourteen minutes. Got bit by red ants three times while i was watching the fire, but i sure showed that little fucker! I laughed all the way to the store. to buy more gas and some lotion for ant bites.

Now, does 'laughed all the way to the store' sound like someone with security issues? I think NOT!

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

No. Martin Luther was explicit. Free will is impossible. See his book "Bondage of the will". As were a lot of theologians following Luther/Calvin. Arminians believe in free will. Methodists follow Arminianism.

Yeah dummy. Free will has nothing to do with will that is formed by experience- which your will is. No excuse except idiocy when one does evil. Free will is constrained by knowledge- have you had a good time at any point in your life? You've learned how to act in some small situation.

Why does everything you post seem to be a derail or senseless?

 

[Kharakov]

''Free will'' constrained by 'knowledge,' determinism, environment, unchosen genetic conditions, neural architecture, shaped by social and cultural conditioning and life events, looks more like....

Us.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah dummy. Free will has nothing to do with will that is formed by experience- which your will is. No excuse except idiocy when one does evil. Free will is constrained by knowledge- have you had a good time at any point in your life? You've learned how to act in some small situation.

Why does everything you post seem to be a derail or senseless?

<snip>

 

[Kharakov]

So I shouldn't call you Dockeen?

I take it you haven't seen "Airplane"

Aight doc. You get how I work word.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Free will in theological terms refers to God's predestination of events, this also known as providence. I was answering a question about Calvinism which holds to this dogma. Obviously you did not understand the question, nor the answer. Again, Calvin an Luther relying on scripture deny free will is possible in a Universe where all is predetermined to a plan. You can never add anything to these discussions, can you?

 

[WAB]

Of course I'm worried! Who wouldn't be! What if the universe actually IS run by a sadistic super being?

Then that worry would be completely separate from a worry about whether or not he could be insulted by pointing out that he's been exhibiting dickish behavior.

I don't think that's the case, as I've been careful to point out.

Yes, you have. It's just funny how anyone could read The Books and decide that the guy who considers genocide 'plan B' is someone they want to admire.

'Heh' is one of the more annoying cliches on the Internet. It's close to 'um', and 'erm' in sheer lack of creativity and communicative power.

It doesn't communicate that i laughed lightly at your post? I mean, it's a word, with a meaning. "used typically to indicate interrogation and often to express scorn, amusement, or surprise."
How odd that i used the word i wanted to express my intended meaning, well within the parameters of scholarly definition, and you view it as a 'cliche.'

Maybe i should take the cheap internet apologist route and just start using random words, and then get upset when you don't grok or you mistake my banana in conversation?
That's more of a 'cliche,' in my humble autocollimator.

Keith: I'm not an apologist, for the love of Pete! Maybe don't take me so seriously? If I'm an apologist, I'd think I'm doing a pretty crappy job, since at this new Talk Freethought forum I've posted poems by atheists, videos by atheists (Frank Zappa's 'Dumb All Over' no less!), and I've tried to make sure I don't get too preachy or out of line for this community. I realize it's a community for those who are trying to stay away from the cultish and mind-fucking institutions that have kept the human spirit in chains for thousands of years.

My vision of God and Jesus Christ are extremely unorthodox and most Christians would consider me in league with the Debbil hisself. I really don't care what other Christians think of me, or what anyone else thinks of me. The only Beings I'm concerned about getting absolutely straight with are Those Who may possibly have been instrumental in my change from card-carrying FRDB atheist to whacko follower of Christ.

I don't have any possible way to express my inner feelings to people except through total sincerity and massive amounts of humor. I have a strong sense that something or Someone very Important has grabbed hold of me. I've admitted that I could simply be crazy. I have no idea. All I can tell you is, some totally amazing things have happened to little me, and I think will continue to happen.

Or, I'm just insane, and you can pleasantly and easily ignore me or just keep on laughing at me. I don't mind at all. I think it's fun.



Sorry, but it's true that 'Heh' is a cliche, and it really does annoy the bejeebus outta me. I use cliches all the time, so do everyone else. That's why cliches are cliches! (With apologies to the French among us.)

 

[WAB]

Of course I'm worried! Who wouldn't be! What if the universe actually IS run by a sadistic super being? I don't think that's the case, as I've been careful to point out.

'Heh' is one of the more annoying cliches on the Internet. It's close to 'um', and 'erm' in sheer lack of creativity and communicative power.

If the universe is being run by an evil being, well, let's face it, odds are you are screwed.


I would submit that a god who is worried about any insults I might throw in his direction has definite security issues.

Absolutely! What's so 'woo'-ish about the idea of a super advanced life form, or super advanced AI, making a program called "Earth", which is just a game for some alien kindergarten student with overbearing parents and a nasty little attitude? The writers for Star Trek exploited ideas like that nearly a half century ago, and it's a common sci-fi theme now as well. I don't find such a situation entirely implausible: in which case, I'd like to get on the Alien Kindergarten Kid's good side, if I had the chance.

But I don't think that's the deal. I think some of us may have the chance to be 'saved' by some super duper God-like Being Whose Embassy on Planet Earth were people like Buddha and that wicked smart Jewish kid from Nazareth. These are just ideas. And they are not at all original to me or unusual.

**EDITED FOR CLARITY

When I say 'I think some of us may have the chance to be 'saved' ' yadda yadda (cliche), I'm not saying I believe it. I just find it to be a rather fascinating and interesting speculation which may amount to nothing whatsoever.

 

[WAB]

Free will in theological terms refers to God's predestination of events, this also known as providence. I was answering a question about Calvinism which holds to this dogma. Obviously you did not understand the question, nor the answer. Again, Calvin an Luther relying on scripture deny free will is possible in a Universe where all is predetermined to a plan. You can never add anything to these discussions, can you?

I think he's a riot! Be of good cheer, Charlie!

 

[Keith&Co.]

Keith: I'm not an apologist, for the love of Pete!

Good gods, William, when did i say you were? I was just talking about the people who are the worst about trying to communicate, and using words rather idiomatically.

I thought actually using words in the right places for the right things was what we were supposed to do.
Maybe it was a poor juxtaposition of content in a reply but it wasn't an accusation.
Sorry.

My vision of God and Jesus Christ are extremely unorthodox and most Christians would consider me in league with the Debbil hisself. I really don't care what other Christians think of me, or what anyone else thinks of me.

Except if you think they called you an apologist...

Sorry, but it's true that 'Heh' is a cliche, and it really does annoy the bejeebus outta me.

But not every use of a cliche is cliched.
And sorry, but it's true that it's the exact word i wanted to use for the exact idea i wanted to communicate. So calling it uncommunicative annoys the crap out of me.

- - - Updated - - -

What's so 'woo'-ish about the idea of a super advanced life form, or super advanced AI, making a program called "Earth", which is just a game for some alien kindergarten student with overbearing parents and a nasty little attitude? The writers for Star Trek exploited ideas like that nearly a half century ago, and it's a common sci-fi theme now as well.

The 'woo' comes in when you act like it's real.

 

[dockeen]

The 'woo' comes in when you act like it's real

And the evil comes when one demands that others honor it as if it is real.

That is a general observation Williams, not a comment about you and your beliefs.

 

[WAB]

OK, Keith, I hear you. Points accepted.

Only one thing, though: What if it IS real? Sorry for saying sorry all the time (I know it's annoying as hell) but I can't help but find the idea intriguing. If it has absolutely no basis in reality - and here I'm talking more about the super alien or super AI theory than the supernatural Deity theory - then so much the better for all of us, including the major loonies who INSIST that anyone who argues with their beliefs is an idiot. I can't stand those people either.