Angela Merkel wants to ban the burka?

[barbos]

I say it again. Special rights should not exist on the basis of people having imaginary friends. Try going through airport security or walking up to a bank teller wearing the hoodie and mouth covering or ski mask. See how that goes for you. Now watch the Muslim women do it and claim it is their right under "freedom of religion"...

Go into the same place with a dagger on your hip. Make it a dull dagger (they wont know) to match Sikh guys. See how that goes for you.

Now walk into a courtroom passed those signs saying no head coverings allowed except for religious ones, and declare it just a suggestion and wear a baseball cap or ski mask while she walks in wearing a burka and he walks in wearing a turban. Watch in amazement as they are declared to be exercising religious freedom, and you are escorted out of the room by the bailiff.

"Religious Freedom" doesn't mean special rights based on imaginary friends? Really? Open your eyes... Explicit bans on burkas are unfair if others can cover their faces yes, but this needs to run both ways.... It was only a little while back that people were not even allowed to give testimony in court without swearing on a fucking bible.

It's true but in this particular case there are other more serious aspects and Merkel talked about it. It's apparent lack of any kind of integration into Europian culture which is becoming very dangerous. Burka and all that crap simply makes any kind of integration impossible.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We are ill-equipped to live in groups of millions when all our instincts come from time when we were living in small tribes where everyone knows each other and is likely related to each other. We are subject to social pressures from our own "tribes", and sometimes those pressures might victimize you into thinking you are a lesser human. Forcing one to wear distinctive and restrictive clothing is one such method of oppression, to be blunt a form of brainwashing. It's not that the women being victimized are any less mentally capable to decide what to wear, it's a situation where they have been forced into.

Ok, fine. I agree about the psychological mechanism. But the same applies to westerners. The fashion industry is often accused of being oppressive. Beauty ideals in fashion, globaly, are basically Aryan. That's not cool. That is oppression and tribalism. The west isn't any different in this regard. The Muslim trend of wearing Islamic dress really started in the 1830'ies in Egypt (and spread from there). Yes, they had Islamic dress before this (but that's a long story which has quite little to do with Islam, so I'll spare you). The Islamic dress of the 1830'ies caught on because it was a reaction to the western liberalism and social demand to dress for sexual attraction. You can't deny that is the prevailing Western norm. I have full understanding for women who are sick of it. Islamic dress is an alternative.

I think you're being chauvinistic. I think you've asserted that the Western tribal dress is superior and more free somehow. Norms for dress is never free. Especially not for women. Not anywhere. The west is no different.

Secondly in the West, Muslim women seem to be more into Islamic dress than their husbands. That is based on everything I've read on it. Islamic immigrant men seem more anxious about fitting into western societies than their wives. I'm well aware these articles may be biased and I may be wrong. But humanity is a bizarre irrational species. I've haven't seen any evidence for that it's widespread that Islamic women are forced to wear this. I think it's mostly projection by westerners. And too often xenophobia and sometimes even racism. I'm sure there exists Islamic men who forces their wives into this. But I don't think it's normal.

Yes, children are forced to wear it. But then again... children are always forced what to wear. So I find it hard to judge.

 

[Bomb#20]

They simply systematically ignore the psychology of domestic violence. ..

What is that "psychology"? That the abused somehow stand up to the abuser?

You have no basis in what I wrote to imagine what I meant was "That the abused somehow stand up to the abuser". You made that up out of whole cloth. In any event, I wasn't talking to you. I don't intend to waste my time engaging with you. Trying to persuade you of anything is futile. Life is too short to blow on the sort of people who write:

Hey what if their families decide to move back to Saudi Arabia or wherever they came from as a result of this? I mean if we've already established that the state has an interest in protecting people from their own decisions then does the state have a right to make sure the woman stays here?

Why stop there. According to LP, “Furthermore, it's basically a statement that Muslim men are animals, not humans”. The state can and does put down animals for their misbehavior,

That looks for all the world like an attempt to paint Loren as having said Muslim men are animals. You owe him an apology. But it will be a cold day in hell when you choose to behave in a civilized manner.

What is surreal is that erst libertarians are jumping up and down on the "Oh, Islam makes me stain my panties, so let's curtail someone else's liberty".

Not sure what an "erst libertarian" is, or what it has to do with my post. Jayjay isn't a libertarian, and neither am I.

 

[Warpoet]

You do bring up a few reasonable points, and if it weren't for the personal insults and misrepresentations you keep littering about, I might bother responding. But when you again bring up inane accusations of my being anti-muslim because I have criticized some "backwards muslim congregations" or oppose wahhabist mosques being built, it's clear that you are not interested in debating the topic but just mental masturbation over some personal vendetta.

My last exchange with you literally broke my bullshit translator outright. I had to send it to the shop to get it fixed, but it's working now and here's what it made of your post:

I am unable to deal with the multitude of valid points you've raised about how my personal feelings over a piece of cloth are clouding my judgment, so I'll just use your tone as a convenient excuse not to attempt to defend my position, given how I've lost every time I've done so in the past.

Rewrite your post, clean out the insults and swear words, and I will reply. When you learn to make your points in a concise manner that discuss the topic and not the person, you will have better luck engaging with other people.

Piss off - you've made these same terrible arguments, rooted in the same terrible logic, more times than I care to count. I've shot you down over and over again for it, and rather than do any kind of reflection and ask yourself why your reasoning stands up so poorly to scrutiny, and if maybe you ought to rethink your position, you just further entrench yourself in the same shitty thinking. You've lost any right to demand that I play nice with you.

 

[Warpoet]

I say it again. Special rights should not exist on the basis of people having imaginary friends. Try going through airport security or walking up to a bank teller wearing the hoodie and mouth covering or ski mask. See how that goes for you. Now watch the Muslim women do it and claim it is their right under "freedom of religion"...

Oh, just do us all a favor and quit hiding behind the security angle. It's a load of duplicitous bullshit and we all know it. You, and pretty much everyone else supporting this idiotic idea, want it for ideological reasons, not security reasons. And besides, the proposal extends far beyond the narrow set of circumstances you're describing. You're looking for excuses because of your own irrational response to a piece of cloth. So own up already.

 

[Warpoet]

I think the footbinding analogy was great. People's personalities and intellectual capabilities form in childhood, and parents who neglect their children can ruin their lives as much as mauling their bodies. I don't think freedom of speech applies to children any more than the right to decide about one's body does.

This is interesting, and pretty much cuts through all the bullshit to the heart of the issue. Zoidberg questioned you about it:

So your solution is what? Taking children away from all parents and raising them in secular orphanages where they're taught to think critically? It's not an option taking children away from these parents. Instead of starting a war against them, how about inviting them in? That's how you change people and that will be the only way we'll ever reach these children.

I looked and didn't see an answer. How come?

It's going to be extremely difficult for you to argue that a piece of cloth should be banned because it represents oppressive ideology, but that religion itself shouldn't be, when it leads to the indoctrination of children, at a young age, into belief systems that run counter to rational thought. And certainly, by any objective metric, the cumulative effect of this is far greater than that of the fucking burqa.

So, should religion be banned or not? Or is it just certain religions that should be banned? Or maybe just low-hanging fruit like the veil, which provoke a knee-jerk, irrational response?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That looks for all the world like an attempt to paint Loren as having said Muslim men are animals. You owe him an apology. But it will be a cold day in hell when you choose to behave in a civilized manner.

When you can't address somebody's point, build a straw man and make up motives for them appears to be the way a few folks on here like to operate.

LP has a good point though. I have spoken with numerous muslims about why women are supposed to wear the veil, and the answer indeed is that it is for modesty and to keep men from looking because they are considered unable to control themselves from temptation. Same reason why they separate the men from women in the mosques. My response has always been "Then why should this create an imposition on the women? Why shouldn't the men wear blinders?"

The alliance between feminists/regressives and muslims really is an odd one, isn't it? The former usually wants to defend the latter based on identity politics; their being an "oppressed minority", but the latter usually has no tolerance for the former.

 

[barbos]

I say it again. Special rights should not exist on the basis of people having imaginary friends. Try going through airport security or walking up to a bank teller wearing the hoodie and mouth covering or ski mask. See how that goes for you. Now watch the Muslim women do it and claim it is their right under "freedom of religion"...

Oh, just do us all a favor and quit hiding behind the security angle. It's a load of duplicitous bullshit and we all know it. You, and pretty much everyone else supporting this idiotic idea, want it for ideological reasons, not security reasons. And besides, the proposal extends far beyond the narrow set of circumstances you're describing. You're looking for excuses because of your own irrational response to a piece of cloth. So own up already.

I want it for both reasons, ideological and security ones.

 

[Warpoet]

LP has a good point though. I have spoken with numerous muslims about why women are supposed to wear the veil, and the answer indeed is that it is for modesty and to keep men from looking because they are considered unable to control themselves from temptation. Same reason why they separate the men from women in the mosques. My response has always been "Then why should this create an imposition on the women? Why shouldn't the men wear blinders?"

This is not some issue that affects only Muslims. Women of all creeds and backgrounds modify their dress and even behavior based on how men behave in response. A non-Muslim woman might easily opt to wear something more conservative because she doesn't want to be ogled or cat-called. She shouldn't have to make that choice. But it's still her choice to make, regardless of why. You sure as hell don't get to take that choice away from her. No different here.

Facial veiling does not cross some sacrosanct boundary beyond which this suddenly becomes a human rights issue. The only line it crosses exists in the minds of third party observers who have some personal dislike for it. And you're free to feel that way, but the mere suggestion that you get to ban it as a result is outrageous.

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I want it for both reasons, ideological and security ones.

Your long record of being consistently (and persistently) wrong on basically all matters related to Islam suggests one matters a lot more than the other.

But in any event, you're wrong to support this proposal for either reason.

 

[barbos]

I want it for both reasons, ideological and security ones.

Your long record of being consistently (and persistently) wrong on basically all matters related to Islam suggests one matters a lot more than the other.

But in any event, you're wrong to support this proposal for either reason.

No, I have a record of being consistently right. Now even Merkel finally agreed with me.

 

[barbos]

We are ill-equipped to live in groups of millions when all our instincts come from time when we were living in small tribes where everyone knows each other and is likely related to each other. We are subject to social pressures from our own "tribes", and sometimes those pressures might victimize you into thinking you are a lesser human. Forcing one to wear distinctive and restrictive clothing is one such method of oppression, to be blunt a form of brainwashing. It's not that the women being victimized are any less mentally capable to decide what to wear, it's a situation where they have been forced into.

Ok, fine. I agree about the psychological mechanism. But the same applies to westerners. The fashion industry is often accused of being oppressive. Beauty ideals in fashion, globaly, are basically Aryan. That's not cool. That is oppression and tribalism. The west isn't any different in this regard. The Muslim trend of wearing Islamic dress really started in the 1830'ies in Egypt (and spread from there). Yes, they had Islamic dress before this (but that's a long story which has quite little to do with Islam, so I'll spare you). The Islamic dress of the 1830'ies caught on because it was a reaction to the western liberalism and social demand to dress for sexual attraction. You can't deny that is the prevailing Western norm. I have full understanding for women who are sick of it. Islamic dress is an alternative.

I think you're being chauvinistic. I think you've asserted that the Western tribal dress is superior and more free somehow. Norms for dress is never free. Especially not for women. Not anywhere. The west is no different.

Secondly in the West, Muslim women seem to be more into Islamic dress than their husbands. That is based on everything I've read on it. Islamic immigrant men seem more anxious about fitting into western societies than their wives. I'm well aware these articles may be biased and I may be wrong. But humanity is a bizarre irrational species. I've haven't seen any evidence for that it's widespread that Islamic women are forced to wear this. I think it's mostly projection by westerners. And too often xenophobia and sometimes even racism. I'm sure there exists Islamic men who forces their wives into this. But I don't think it's normal.

Yes, children are forced to wear it. But then again... children are always forced what to wear. So I find it hard to judge.

You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

 

[Warpoet]

No, I have a record of being consistently right. Now even Merkel finally agreed with me.

Well gee, you didn't mention that a politician trying to get re-elected has resorted to pandering to your xenophobic mentality. That changes everything.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

 

[barbos]

Well gee, you didn't mention that a politician trying to get re-elected has resorted to pandering to your xenophobic mentality. That changes everything.

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

 

[iolo]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

And you still refuse to join the civilized world, barbos?

 

[Warpoet]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up already.

It's either integration or deportation

See above

 

[barbos]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

And you still refuse to join the civilized world, barbos?

I would not call Islamic world civilized

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Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up already.

It's either integration or deportation

See above

No, you shut the fuck up.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up already.

See above

No, you shut the fuck up.

If we shut all the fucks up, nobody will have any fucks left to give. I don't give a fuck.

 

[barbos]

No, you shut the fuck up.

If we shut all the fucks up, nobody will have any fucks left to give. I don't give a fuck.

I did not know you were follower of 7th century pedophile PBUH.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

I'm a European born in the UK and have traveled in Europe but I never integrated so what chance to those entering coming have. Diversity is far more interesting provided there is tolerance and positive interaction.

 

[barbos]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

I'm a European born in the UK and have traveled in Europe but I never integrated so what chance to those entering coming have. Diversity is far more interesting provided there is tolerance and positive interaction.

Positive interaction with a person with a bag over her head who is not allowed to even interact with you in the first place?
Truth is, Merkel and other multi-culturalism theorists expected some level of integration/assimilation but more often than not they got zero amount of it.
And it's getting worse because with the number of muslims increasing they don't even feel the need to integrate they can happily live in their own little Saudi Arabias and occasionally go to Anti-Cartoon demonstrations.