The face of Israeli justice

[Loren Pechtel]

So what if he got a bit hurt resisting arrest? He was trying to kill them.

With a slingshot? Do you know of a single case where Israeli police would have been killed by a slingshot? Besides you don't know if the slingshot was used to hurl stones at people, or vehicles or buildings.

You might as well say that the police tried to kill him, but failed. There are certainly more cases of protestors being killed by the police, than vice versa.

Besides, the kid's cousin was captured and burned alive by Israelis, and the police is not lifting a finger to bring the murderer to justice. You think he might have reason to be a bit pissed off at the police, no?

A slingshot can kill. When you shoot a slingshot at someone you don't have an option of non-lethal force.

And you're simply assuming Israel is guilty in the other case--something that's unlikely.

- - - Updated - - -

Resisting arrest is a reason for beating the jellybeans out of someone? That's new to me.

I always thought resisting arrest is a reason for overpowering that person, not busting her/his face open with repeated bludgeonings, whch is not an uncommon practice the world over (not that popularity is an excuse).

When someone is resisting arrest the cops aren't exactly going to be gentle in taking them down. If you don't have enough people to immobilize them it means using enough force to get them to quit resisting.

 

[Jayjay]

You are confusing your asssumptions with fact. 1st, you assume the Israeli police statement is accurate. 2nd, there is no claim in the statement that the teenager was trying to kill anyone.

Note the slingshot. You're saying he had it for no reason??

Yes, but it's silly to say that the reason was to kill anyone. Sure you could kill someone with a slingshot but that would take either extraordinary skill or jut really bad luck... and you can kill someone with police baton, rubber bullets, or even just by punching them in the face also. If you are using the slingsot as evidence that the kid was trying to kill the police, then by the same standard you have to admit that the police were trying their best to kill him.

Second, being in possession of a slingshot is not evidence that he used it against a person. Who's to say he wasn't carrying it but didn't have time to use it? Or that he didn't target vehicles or buildings instead of people?

What doesn't get stressed enough is that the illegal settlements and general treatment of the Palestinians by the IDF is the root cause of nearly all of the violence. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately depending on how you view the situation), neither the IDF nor Israel in general have a moral leg to stand on in this conflict. But you're right, if nothing else can possibly be said about the legality of Israel itself, it is certainly fact that the settlements are illegal and immoral and indefensible. Yet in the fervor of discussing these more minor issues of the occupation, sight is is lost of the larger issue, which is the illegal settlements.

So they have a time machine?

The violence started long before there was any occupation.

Just as there was violence by the Jews against the Arabs long before there were protests.

 

[Jayjay]

A slingshot can kill. When you shoot a slingshot at someone you don't have an option of non-lethal force.

Hitting someone in the face with a baton can also kill. Again I ask you, show me a case where Palestinians have killed someone with a slingshot. It could be a lethal weapon, but very unlikely against a policeman wearing protective gear... if the slingshot was used against the police at all, which has not been proven.

 

[Derec]

Was his cousin who was burned to death "resisting arrest" as well?

He wasn't killed by the police. In fact, Israeli police arrested suspects in his death. What are the chances of PA police arresting the suspects in the murder of the Jewish teens? No, PA is more likely to pay a reward to the families of these monsters instead. That is why there can and never will be a hint of moral equivalence between Israel and Palestinians. Israel punishes Israelis that murder Palestinians, Palestinian Authority rewards Palestinians who murder Israelis.

Besides, the three Israeli teens that were murdered were entering an illegally occupied hostile territory.

They were coming home from school. Reality check please.
But it's hardly surprising for the pro-Palestinians to condone murder of Jews.

 

[laughing dog]

You are confusing your asssumptions with fact. 1st, you assume the Israeli police statement is accurate. 2nd, there is no claim in the statement that the teenager was trying to kill anyone.

Note the slingshot. You're saying he had it for no reason??

No. Assuming the report is true, there is no reason to assume his intention was to use it to kill anyone. People use slingshots for a variety of reasons. Killing someone with a slingshot is pretty difficult. I find it revealing you accepted the police's explanation as fact and used it to extrapolate to the most damaging reason for the possession of the slingshot. Why not wait for the facts to emerge rather than engage in extremely biased guesswork?

 

[laughing dog]

They were coming home from school. Reality check please.

Logic check: that does not rebut that they were entering hostile territory. That entrance justifies their kidnapping or murder. Nothing to date justifies the killing of that Arab young man or the beating this particular teenager received.

 

[Bomb#20]

In fact, Israeli police arrested suspects in his death.

Besides, the kid's cousin was captured and burned alive by Israelis, and the police is not lifting a finger to bring the murderer to justice.

What evidence were you relying on when you made that claim?

 

[Jayjay]

He wasn't killed by the police. In fact, Israeli police arrested suspects in his death. What are the chances of PA police arresting the suspects in the murder of the Jewish teens? No, PA is more likely to pay a reward to the families of these monsters instead. That is why there can and never will be a hint of moral equivalence between Israel and Palestinians. Israel punishes Israelis that murder Palestinians, Palestinian Authority rewards Palestinians who murder Israelis.

Israel found the perpetrators because of the public pressure and rioting. If the Palestinians, like the victim's cousin in question, hadn't protested there would probably have been no investigation at all.

Of course there is n equivalency between Israelis and Palestinians. The former have institutionalized their violence, they have all the power. The latter have nothing so they resort to only tactics at their disposal: terrorism and taking pot shots here and there. It's not my business to tell them how to resist the occupation, but it is their right to do so and the occupier should not be surprised to see resistance. Israelis choose to bring kids into a war zone, is it any surprise that some of those kids get killed?

Besides, the three Israeli teens that were murdered were entering an illegally occupied hostile territory.

They were coming home from school. Reality check please.
But it's hardly surprising for the pro-Palestinians to condone murder of Jews.

If someone entered your house (or town or country), said it belongs to him, what the hell would you do about it? Just roll over? The reality of the situation is that these kids "home" happened to be in a territory that was illegally occupied by the fanatic religious parents. Their blood is on their hands as much as it is on Hamas.

 

[Jayjay]

Besides, the kid's cousin was captured and burned alive by Israelis, and the police is not lifting a finger to bring the murderer to justice.

What evidence were you relying on when you made that claim?

The police had not made the arrest at the time of the protest, nor at the time when I wrote that. And I stand by that judgment because compared to the reaction that Israeli government and police had to the kidnapping of the three Jews, they appeared to be doing nothing.

 

[Samhain]

What doesn't get stressed enough is that the illegal settlements and general treatment of the Palestinians by the IDF is the root cause of nearly all of the violence. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately depending on how you view the situation), neither the IDF nor Israel in general have a moral leg to stand on in this conflict. But you're right, if nothing else can possibly be said about the legality of Israel itself, it is certainly fact that the settlements are illegal and immoral and indefensible. Yet in the fervor of discussing these more minor issues of the occupation, sight is is lost of the larger issue, which is the illegal settlements.

So they have a time machine?

The violence started long before there was any occupation.

In what way does this make a difference in your mind to the settlements and theft of land that is occurring right now?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note the slingshot. You're saying he had it for no reason??

Yes, but it's silly to say that the reason was to kill anyone. Sure you could kill someone with a slingshot but that would take either extraordinary skill or jut really bad luck... and you can kill someone with police baton, rubber bullets, or even just by punching them in the face also. If you are using the slingsot as evidence that the kid was trying to kill the police, then by the same standard you have to admit that the police were trying their best to kill him.

Second, being in possession of a slingshot is not evidence that he used it against a person. Who's to say he wasn't carrying it but didn't have time to use it? Or that he didn't target vehicles or buildings instead of people?

Over there slingshots are used to shoot potentially lethal projectiles at the police. It would take a lucky hit to kill but it's certainly possible.

Batons and rubber bullets generally let you choose where to strike and thus normally are not classed as lethal.

As for what he targeted--look at what happens over there. They don't shoot buildings or vehicles without people in them.

What we have here is a low level enemy combatant.

So they have a time machine?

The violence started long before there was any occupation.

Just as there was violence by the Jews against the Arabs long before there were protests.

Look at history. The Arabs are always the ones starting it.

 

[untermensche]

One of the murdered Israeli teens was a US citizen. I did not see any threads started by you then. Why is that?

As I said, any talk about Palestinian response to this brutal unending occupation and theft is completely irrelevant. People are allowed to resist their brutal oppressors. They are allowed to resist them with violence.

Brutal occupations and oppression are immoral.

Resisting them in any way is completely moral. The oppressor is responsible for the response to their oppression.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So they have a time machine?

The violence started long before there was any occupation.

In what way does this make a difference in your mind to the settlements and theft of land that is occurring right now?

I see no current theft of land. The settlements are not expanding despite news fabrications to the contrary. Rather, they are simply building within the current borders.

And the order of events makes a very big difference on cause and effect.

 

[Jayjay]

Yes, but it's silly to say that the reason was to kill anyone. Sure you could kill someone with a slingshot but that would take either extraordinary skill or jut really bad luck... and you can kill someone with police baton, rubber bullets, or even just by punching them in the face also. If you are using the slingsot as evidence that the kid was trying to kill the police, then by the same standard you have to admit that the police were trying their best to kill him.

Second, being in possession of a slingshot is not evidence that he used it against a person. Who's to say he wasn't carrying it but didn't have time to use it? Or that he didn't target vehicles or buildings instead of people?

Over there slingshots are used to shoot potentially lethal projectiles at the police. It would take a lucky hit to kill but it's certainly possible.

Batons and rubber bullets generally let you choose where to strike and thus normally are not classed as lethal.

As for what he targeted--look at what happens over there. They don't shoot buildings or vehicles without people in them.

So now slingshots are used to bring down vehicles and buildings as well? Really, if IDF only could master the massive destructive power of slingshots, they would have destroyed Hamas a long time ago.

Fact is, no Israeli police or military has ever died from a slingshot. Much less anyone who is inside a car or a building... a rock might smash a window but that's pretty much it. And show me the source where slingshots are "classed as lethal".

What we have here is a low level enemy combatant.

You could say the same about the Israeli police force when they operate outside their own territories. They are like Nazi military police during the occupation of France: technically "police", but by any reasonable definition can be classified as enemy combatants and legitimate targets for the resistance.

The violence started long before there was any occupation.

Just as there was violence by the Jews against the Arabs long before there were protests.

Look at history. The Arabs are always the ones starting it.

Yes, the Arabs are the ones who forced the ionists to conspire with the British and migrate to mandate of Palestine. The Jews were helpess but to comply... after all the dastardly Arabs were armed with slingshots.

 

[untermensche]

In what way does this make a difference in your mind to the settlements and theft of land that is occurring right now?

I see no current theft of land. The settlements are not expanding despite news fabrications to the contrary. Rather, they are simply building within the current borders.

And the order of events makes a very big difference on cause and effect.

Every settlement is theft.

If you can't see theft then you have no eyes.

 

[Jayjay]

In what way does this make a difference in your mind to the settlements and theft of land that is occurring right now?

I see no current theft of land. The settlements are not expanding despite news fabrications to the contrary. Rather, they are simply building within the current borders.

Let's say I took $100 out of your wallet, and you want it back. Too bad that according to your logic, the money now belongs to me because there is no "current theft" once I have the hundred dollar bill in my possession!

 

[Frikki]

This case must give Loren the biggest boner.

 

[untermensche]

I see no current theft of land. The settlements are not expanding despite news fabrications to the contrary. Rather, they are simply building within the current borders.

Let's say I took $100 out of your wallet, and you want it back. Too bad that according to your logic, the money now belongs to me because there is no "current theft" once I have the hundred dollar bill in my possession!

Actually his logic is: As long as I steal no more, there is no theft. My prior theft magically disappears when it is over.

So no matter how much land is stolen, as long as there are periods of time where there is building up of the land taken, so that the people you took it from will have a hard time taking it back, and not further theft, the thief and their accomplices will always have times where they can claim there is no theft.

Israel is building in the settlements. Bringing more people in IS expansion.

 

[Derec]

The police had not made the arrest at the time of the protest, nor at the time when I wrote that.

They were investigating already.

And I stand by that judgment because compared to the reaction that Israeli government and police had to the kidnapping of the three Jews, they appeared to be doing nothing.

Israel certainly did a lot more investigating the murder of an Arab than the PA did investigating the murder of the three Jews. But then again, you think the murder of the Jewish kids was justified.

 

[laughing dog]

Look at history. The Arabs are always the ones starting it.

That requires a selective vision of the term "history". You do realize history did not begin in 1948.