The face of Israeli justice

[Derec]

Israel found the perpetrators because of the public pressure and rioting. If the Palestinians, like the victim's cousin in question, hadn't protested there would probably have been no investigation at all.

No, they found the suspected perpetrators because they launched a criminal investigation as soon as the crime happened. Investigations take time. The violent "protests" had nothing to do with it.

It's not my business to tell them how to resist the occupation, but it is their right to do so and the occupier should not be surprised to see resistance.

There is no justification for terrorism. Palestinians could have had their state a long time ago but they always keep sabotaging it. That's because a State of Palestine is not good enough if they don't get to push the Jews into the sea in the process.

Israelis choose to bring kids into a war zone, is it any surprise that some of those kids get killed?

They were killed because a group of Palestinians decided to kidnap and murder Jewish kids. No other reason. That you keep defending the indefensible is disgusting.

If someone entered your house (or town or country), said it belongs to him, what the hell would you do about it?

The only reason Judea and Samria are occupied by Israel is that Arabs started the 1967 war against Israel. Btw, that was never Palestinian territory, because there was never any state of "Palestine". Before 1967 it was Jordnian territory and would still be had Arabs not repeatedly tried to annihilate Israel.

Just roll over? The reality of the situation is that these kids "home" happened to be in a territory that was illegally occupied by the fanatic religious parents. Their blood is on their hands as much as it is on Hamas.

How about negotiate? Ehud Barak offered Arafat 97% of Judea and Samaria but Arafat responded with calling for violence and terrorism (so-called "Second Intifada"). That is always the Palestinian response to good faith efforts by Israel. As Abba Eban said, they "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" ...

 

[untermensche]

There is no justification for terrorism.

There is only one justification.

Winning by using it. Which is the justification for all the Israeli terrorism.

They are winning. Their terrorism is justified.

If the Palestinians win by using it, their terrorism will be justified too.

 

[Samhain]

I see no current theft of land. The settlements are not expanding despite news fabrications to the contrary. Rather, they are simply building within the current borders.

And the order of events makes a very big difference on cause and effect.

Every settlement is theft.

If you can't see theft then you have no eyes.

It makes little difference in any case. There is current theft going on as has been well documented in other threads. The settlements expand every year, more land gets taken for "security reasons" and then when they build that up they simply take more for the same reasons. Loren denies that this occurs, but I have yet to see him actually rebutting the evidence that exists in contrary to his beliefs.

 

[Jayjay]

They were investigating already.

And I stand by that judgment because compared to the reaction that Israeli government and police had to the kidnapping of the three Jews, they appeared to be doing nothing.

Israel certainly did a lot more investigating the murder of an Arab than the PA did investigating the murder of the three Jews. But then again, you think the murder of the Jewish kids was justified.

What the fuck does it matter what PA does? They are not the ones in charge.

Tell me, how many houses did Israel raid to search the Jewish murderers? How many people did they detain and question? Were the perpetrators houses burned down? Thes are all actions that Israel took to find the Arab killers, which were very visible even before they foudn the bodies or who did it. But until the arrests of the six Jewish murderers, there was very little visible action. Obviously there was an investigation going on and we know it now, but at the time when I made my post there was no indication yet whether that investigation would yield any results, or if it was just going to be swept under the rug.

 

[Jayjay]

No, they found the suspected perpetrators because they launched a criminal investigation as soon as the crime happened. Investigations take time. The violent "protests" had nothing to do with it.

The protests certainly made it a high profile case. There's no way to tell what the police would have done otherwise.

It's not my business to tell them how to resist the occupation, but it is their right to do so and the occupier should not be surprised to see resistance.

There is no justification for terrorism. Palestinians could have had their state a long time ago but they always keep sabotaging it. That's because a State of Palestine is not good enough if they don't get to push the Jews into the sea in the process.

Palestinian failures and delusions are not an excuse for Israel to steal more land. The profit motive that Israel has to keep the war going is just as much to blame for continuing the conflict as anything the Arabs did, and certainly the Jews had not been at risk of being pushed to the sea in almost half a century now.

Israelis choose to bring kids into a war zone, is it any surprise that some of those kids get killed?

They were killed because a group of Palestinians decided to kidnap and murder Jewish kids. No other reason. That you keep defending the indefensible is disgusting.

Nasty stuff happens during a war. Is it my fault that state of Israel has allowed over 300,000 civilians to settle in occupied territory, which is a war crime per Geneva Convention, and that some of them are children? The settlements are fair targets, and presence of children who are being used by human shields doesn't change that.

Besides I disagree with your contention that the purpose was to murder the kids, at least initially. Most likely they were going to be used as hostages for a prisoner swap, which actually is worse in my mind because it doesn't help fighting the settlers, it just pisses them off. Their murders are legitimate only to the extent that they make settlers reconsider living in West Bank, not how many prisoners Hamas can free. I'd rather not see anyone die, but I'm not the one to tell them how to resist or what means they have at their disposal.

If someone entered your house (or town or country), said it belongs to him, what the hell would you do about it?

The only reason Judea and Samria are occupied by Israel is that Arabs started the 1967 war against Israel. Btw, that was never Palestinian territory, because there was never any state of "Palestine". Before 1967 it was Jordnian territory and would still be had Arabs not repeatedly tried to annihilate Israel.

That's a silly argument, because the Israeli opression and Arab policy has made them outcasts and created the Palestinian national identity even if there never was one before. There was "never" any state of Israel either, until 1948 when there suddenly was one.

Besides, what Arabs did ages ago is no excuse for present atrocities by the Jews. The 1967 war justifies a military occupation only. It does not justify stealing land unilaterally and mass transfers of civilian population, and forcing the original residents into ghettoes without civil rights whatsoever. Every people have right to resists (or not resist, if they don't think it's worth it), because nobody else is going to do it for them, and there is no outside arbiter that can say who's got the moral high ground.

Just roll over? The reality of the situation is that these kids "home" happened to be in a territory that was illegally occupied by the fanatic religious parents. Their blood is on their hands as much as it is on Hamas.

How about negotiate? Ehud Barak offered Arafat 97% of Judea and Samaria but Arafat responded with calling for violence and terrorism (so-called "Second Intifada"). That is always the Palestinian response to good faith efforts by Israel. As Abba Eban said, they "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" ...

Good faith my ass. Israel has a profit motive to scuttle all fair peace deals. That's precisely why transfer of civilian populations was penned down as a war crime in Geneva Conventions: wars of conuest should not be profitable. As long as Israel benefits from prolonging the conflict, it will try to do whatever it can to prolong it, including trying to make offers with poison pills and blaming the other side. If Barak was ready to offer 97%, that also means that Israel refused the peace deal because of measly 3%.

 

[Arctish]

Israel certainly did a lot more investigating the murder of an Arab than the PA did investigating the murder of the three Jews. But then again, you think the murder of the Jewish kids was justified.

The PA fully assisted Israel in its search for the missing teenagers, even though the kidnapping took place in a part of the West Bank under complete Israeli control (where the PA is not allowed to operate), and despite the fact the PA police were not notified of the kidnapping until the next day.

The kidnapping and killing of those 3 boys was a terrible act of injustice and hate. The burning alive of an even younger boy in revenge was even more horrible. These were teenagers who should not have been condemned for choices their parents made, or for being born into the "wrong" ethnic and religious group. Whoever committed these acts are the worst sort of murderers. They should be roundly condemned by anyone who gives a crap about human rights, no matter what cause they claim to be fighting for.

 

[Arctish]

No, they found the suspected perpetrators because they launched a criminal investigation as soon as the crime happened. Investigations take time. The violent "protests" had nothing to do with it.

It's not my business to tell them how to resist the occupation, but it is their right to do so and the occupier should not be surprised to see resistance.

There is no justification for terrorism. Palestinians could have had their state a long time ago but they always keep sabotaging it. That's because a State of Palestine is not good enough if they don't get to push the Jews into the sea in the process.

No matter how often you repeat this propaganda, it remains propaganda.

The Zionists who created Israel forcibly removed Palestinians from their homes, farms, and properties. The Palestinians want their stolen property back. You can frame that as pushing Jews into the sea all you want, no Palestinians ever claimed that as a goal. They want to be treated with respect, they want to be treated fairly, and they want to go home.

Israelis choose to bring kids into a war zone, is it any surprise that some of those kids get killed?

They were killed because a group of Palestinians decided to kidnap and murder Jewish kids. No other reason. That you keep defending the indefensible is disgusting.

If someone entered your house (or town or country), said it belongs to him, what the hell would you do about it?

The only reason Judea and Samria are occupied by Israel is that Arabs started the 1967 war against Israel. Btw, that was never Palestinian territory, because there was never any state of "Palestine". Before 1967 it was Jordnian territory and would still be had Arabs not repeatedly tried to annihilate Israel.

Just roll over? The reality of the situation is that these kids "home" happened to be in a territory that was illegally occupied by the fanatic religious parents. Their blood is on their hands as much as it is on Hamas.

How about negotiate? Ehud Barak offered Arafat 97% of Judea and Samaria but Arafat responded with calling for violence and terrorism (so-called "Second Intifada"). That is always the Palestinian response to good faith efforts by Israel. As Abba Eban said, they "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" ...

The bolded part of your post is also propaganda. The Camp David proposals offered the Palestinians less land, less autonomy, and less security than the Oslo Accords, while allowing the PA no effective control over the West Bank due to the Israeli controlled "Jews Only" road system, and Israeli control of Palestinian aquifers, civil matters, and borders. That 97% number ignores the fact the offered land was sectioned off into discrete parcels, making it a huge endeavor just to run a school bus system or mail delivery, much less police patrols or emergency response units. It was a shitty offer. It was so shitty it pissed off people used to getting shitty deals. And when Barak declared this was Israel's final, ultimate offer, the Palestinians were infuriated.

Israel reneged on it's obligations under the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians know it, and Zionist attempts to bury that unpleasant truth under a pile of bullshit won't work. Anyone who knows anything about the conflict knows Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for agreeing to a Palestinian State in the West Bank, and his successor Ehud Barak tried to take it all back.

 

[untermensche]

Note the slingshot. You're saying he had it for no reason??

First of all I don't believe the proper punishment for carrying a slingshot is a beating to the head.

Second, I am very skeptical there was a slingshot. Who knows what happened? All we know is that the Israeli police like to beat up young Palestinians.

The West Bank is their huge Abu Ghraib after all.

 

[Bomb#20]

What evidence were you relying on when you made that claim?

The police had not made the arrest at the time of the protest, nor at the time when I wrote that.

So, you get your understanding of investigative procedure from watching "Law & Order" and "24"? Which you can't tell apart, so you assume events on "Law & Order" unfold in real time? So you expect if police are lifting a finger then the crime will be solved in half an hour, leaving the other half hour for the trial?

And I stand by that judgment because compared to the reaction that Israeli government and police had to the kidnapping of the three Jews, they appeared to be doing nothing.

So, you assume if police are performing autopsies and collecting fingerprints and sticking tacks in maps and interviewing witnesses and subpoenaing phone records and browbeating suspects' relatives into giving them up and so forth, then there will be a camera crew with the police recording it all, for the sake of broadcasting all this finger-lifting to the viewing you, because there's always a camera crew at the studio where they film "Law & Order"?

 

[Jayjay]

The police had not made the arrest at the time of the protest, nor at the time when I wrote that.

So, you get your understanding of investigative procedure from watching "Law & Order" and "24"? Which you can't tell apart, so you assume events on "Law & Order" unfold in real time? So you expect if police are lifting a finger then the crime will be solved in half an hour, leaving the other half hour for the trial?

And I stand by that judgment because compared to the reaction that Israeli government and police had to the kidnapping of the three Jews, they appeared to be doing nothing.

So, you assume if police are performing autopsies and collecting fingerprints and sticking tacks in maps and interviewing witnesses and subpoenaing phone records and browbeating suspects' relatives into giving them up and so forth, then there will be a camera crew with the police recording it all, for the sake of broadcasting all this finger-lifting to the viewing you, because there's always a camera crew at the studio where they film "Law & Order"?

I don't watch Law & Order so you're going to have to spell out the analogy you're trying to make. That's the show where the police investigate during the first half of the show, and the rest is legal drama?

Within the same time frame, when investigating the kidnapping of the three Israeli kids, the investigation was very visible. And it wasn't just for show, the extent of the interrogations was a key to solving the crime as quickly as it was. Furthermore, in that case Isral pointed the finger squarely at Hamas. In this case, until the arrests, the official line from Israel was still that they don't know who did it, and combined with the lack of visible progress it was a reasonable speculation that maybe the crime would not be solved. I am not privy to internal workings of the Israeli police, I can only assess the facts that had been made public at the time.

 

[Sabine Grant]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/tampa-teen-released-from-israeli-jail/2187376

The U.S. State Department said it was "profoundly troubled" by reports of his beating and demanded an investigation. Israel's Justice Ministry quickly launched a formal investigation.

It does not appear that Tariq's beating will just be "swept under the carpet" as the US placed pressure on the Israeli government. The fact that Tariq was released and sentenced to 9 days under house arrest and will be able to return to his home in Tampa(without any further judiciary action against him) seems to indicate that the Israeli government is not taking the angle that he is a "low degree enemy combatant" ( ref. to Loren's previous comments) despite of being allegedly in possession of a sling shot while being physically present at the protests preceding his cousin's funerals.

At the time when both innocent Israeli and Palestinian teens have become targets of opportunities for radicalized groups, it would be very bad PR for the Israeli government to appear to condone what appears to be an abuse of force on Tariq. Considering that the video reveals he was already on the ground, hand cuffed and certainly not showing any signs of "resisting" at the very time he was both being kicked and punched.

 

[braces_for_impact]

So what if he got a bit hurt resisting arrest? He was trying to kill them.

With a slingshot? Do you know of a single case where Israeli police would have been killed by a slingshot? Besides you don't know if the slingshot was used to hurl stones at people, or vehicles or buildings.

You might as well say that the police tried to kill him, but failed. There are certainly more cases of protestors being killed by the police, than vice versa.

Besides, the kid's cousin was captured and burned alive by Israelis, and the police is not lifting a finger to bring the murderer to justice. You think he might have reason to be a bit pissed off at the police, no?

They're Jews. David and Goliath remember? A slingshot is a feared weapon!

 

[Sabine Grant]

By Loren Pechtel : So what if he got a bit hurt resisting arrest? He was trying to kill them.

It does not appear that the Judge who released Tariq and only gave him 9 days under house arrest, that it would be the type of sentence corresponding to "trying to kill". I am rather certain that whether it be in Israel or the US, "trying to kill" better known as attempt to commit murder would meet a far more severe sentence than house arrest for 9 days without any further judiciary prosecution. This " he was trying to kill them" is another speculation on your part while you have been challenged to show evidence of Israeli police being killed due to the use of a slingshot. And please, do not reply by stating that there is always an intent to kill since this Israeli Judge's delivered sentence certainly does not reflect the type of severe sentencing that would result from a conclusion that there was intent to kill on Tariq's part with his being allegedly in possession of a slingshot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I see no current theft of land. The settlements are not expanding despite news fabrications to the contrary. Rather, they are simply building within the current borders.

And the order of events makes a very big difference on cause and effect.

Every settlement is theft.

If you can't see theft then you have no eyes.

And they aren't building any more. Thus no more theft.

- - - Updated - - -

Look at history. The Arabs are always the ones starting it.

That requires a selective vision of the term "history". You do realize history did not begin in 1948.

And when you go back farther you still find the Arabs starting it.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no justification for terrorism.

There is only one justification.

Winning by using it. Which is the justification for all the Israeli terrorism.

They are winning. Their terrorism is justified.

If the Palestinians win by using it, their terrorism will be justified too.

Terrorism is not justified, period.

And calling Israeli actions "terrorism" doesn't make it so.

- - - Updated - - -

They were investigating already.


Israel certainly did a lot more investigating the murder of an Arab than the PA did investigating the murder of the three Jews. But then again, you think the murder of the Jewish kids was justified.

What the fuck does it matter what PA does? They are not the ones in charge.

Tell me, how many houses did Israel raid to search the Jewish murderers? How many people did they detain and question? Were the perpetrators houses burned down? Thes are all actions that Israel took to find the Arab killers, which were very visible even before they foudn the bodies or who did it. But until the arrests of the six Jewish murderers, there was very little visible action. Obviously there was an investigation going on and we know it now, but at the time when I made my post there was no indication yet whether that investigation would yield any results, or if it was just going to be swept under the rug.

Houses burned down? I haven't heard that one.


And the hunt for the first kidnappers was much more obvious because it was opposed by the people. The second was not, thus the police operated quietly like they normally do.

- - - Updated - - -

The bolded part of your post is also propaganda. The Camp David proposals offered the Palestinians less land, less autonomy, and less security than the Oslo Accords, while allowing the PA no effective control over the West Bank due to the Israeli controlled "Jews Only" road system, and Israeli control of Palestinian aquifers, civil matters, and borders. That 97% number ignores the fact the offered land was sectioned off into discrete parcels, making it a huge endeavor just to run a school bus system or mail delivery, much less police patrols or emergency response units. It was a shitty offer. It was so shitty it pissed off people used to getting shitty deals. And when Barak declared this was Israel's final, ultimate offer, the Palestinians were infuriated.

Then Arafat should have made a counter-proposal.

Israel reneged on it's obligations under the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians know it, and Zionist attempts to bury that unpleasant truth under a pile of bullshit won't work. Anyone who knows anything about the conflict knows Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for agreeing to a Palestinian State in the West Bank, and his successor Ehud Barak tried to take it all back.

Israel gave up on Oslo when the Palestinians reneged.

 

[laughing dog]

[

And when you go back farther you still find the Arabs starting it.

Unless you can show that the Jews were the original settlers there and did not displace anyone, your claim appears to more selective history. More importantly, it is irrelevant to dealing with the current situation. It is simply childish reasoning to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

An issue that doesn't get talked about much is the fact that these settlements are indisputably illegal, that the people who live there are effectively squatters occupying land that they have no right to live on, and that technically anything the Palestinians could do to those settlers would count as self-defense under international law.

So if somebody squats on your land and won't leave, kidnapping him and then killing him while he's helpless is legal?

In this case "him" is an entire nation state and the population it has illegally transferred into someone else's sovereign territory under the cover of a powerful military organization. Strictly speaking, that makes the settlers a component of an invasion force, and they would be legitimate targets.

I'm still wondering why the Palestinians aren't shooting rockets at the West Bank settlements. They're a lot more vulnerable than Israel proper and probably much easier targets. My guess is that they don't have the militant infrastructure in the West Bank that they do in Gaza, plus the fact that Israel's military presence in the West Bank is much more pervasive.

 

[untermensche]

There is only one justification.

Winning by using it. Which is the justification for all the Israeli terrorism.

They are winning. Their terrorism is justified.

If the Palestinians win by using it, their terrorism will be justified too.

Terrorism is not justified, period.

And calling Israeli actions "terrorism" doesn't make it so.

If one supports current Israeli policy then one is with the terrorists.

One is fully in support of terrorism on a massive scale.

 

[Arctish]

Every settlement is theft.

If you can't see theft then you have no eyes.

And they aren't building any more. Thus no more theft.

So the theft of land where the settlements are built magically becomes not-theft as soon as the building is done? That would be a pretty slick trick if the Israelis could pull it off. But unfortunately for them, theft remains theft even when the thieves have finished making alterations to the stolen property.

- - - Updated - - -

Look at history. The Arabs are always the ones starting it.

That requires a selective vision of the term "history". You do realize history did not begin in 1948.

And when you go back farther you still find the Arabs starting it.

When you go further back you find Arabs started it. When unbiased researchers go back they find Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together, working together, and marrying into each other's families up until Europeans decided to impose their will on the Middle East, and blew apart that social structure.

The bolded part of your post is also propaganda. The Camp David proposals offered the Palestinians less land, less autonomy, and less security than the Oslo Accords, while allowing the PA no effective control over the West Bank due to the Israeli controlled "Jews Only" road system, and Israeli control of Palestinian aquifers, civil matters, and borders. That 97% number ignores the fact the offered land was sectioned off into discrete parcels, making it a huge endeavor just to run a school bus system or mail delivery, much less police patrols or emergency response units. It was a shitty offer. It was so shitty it pissed off people used to getting shitty deals. And when Barak declared this was Israel's final, ultimate offer, the Palestinians were infuriated.

Then Arafat should have made a counter-proposal.

Arafat's counter proposal was to stick with the Oslo Accords, and not replace them with an inferior substitute.

Israel reneged on it's obligations under the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians know it, and Zionist attempts to bury that unpleasant truth under a pile of bullshit won't work. Anyone who knows anything about the conflict knows Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for agreeing to a Palestinian State in the West Bank, and his successor Ehud Barak tried to take it all back.

Israel gave up on Oslo when the Palestinians reneged.

Have you forgotten that Netanyahu boasted he, personally, was the one who sabotaged the Oslo Accords? Why won't you take Bibi at his word? You believe everything else he says. Why not this?

BTW, the one time I know about where you looked for support for the claim that Palestinians failed to honor their obligations under the Oslo Accords, your source turned out to be lying about what was, and what wasn't in the Oslo Accords. Even worse, he deliberately misled his audience about Rachel's Tomb. I hope you aren't still relying on him for information. He's not trustworthy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[

And when you go back farther you still find the Arabs starting it.

Unless you can show that the Jews were the original settlers there and did not displace anyone, your claim appears to more selective history. More importantly, it is irrelevant to dealing with the current situation. It is simply childish reasoning to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

I don't see the Canaanites attacking the Jews.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When you go further back you find Arabs started it. When unbiased researchers go back they find Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together, working together, and marrying into each other's families up until Europeans decided to impose their will on the Middle East,and blew apart that social structure.

No. When you go back far enough you find Muslims in charge, the Jews and Christians second class citizens. That's what's really driving this--the closest parallel in history is a slave revolt. The creation of Israel was a successful slave revolt, it's no wonder the Muslims went ape.

Arafat's counter proposal was to stick with the Oslo Accords, and not replace them with an inferior substitute.

1) Arafat had already abandoned Oslo.

2) Oslo was never meant to be an answer.

Have you forgotten that Netanyahu boasted he, personally, was the one who sabotaged the Oslo Accords? Why won't you take Bibi at his word? You believe everything else he says. Why not this?

I've seen that video--it doesn't say what you claim. He said he knew it would fail, not that he caused it to fail.