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March for women. A message from Conservatives

But then getting lectured for decades now by feminists about how sexist it is to asscociate pink with girls (e.g. toys, dresses, bedroom color, etc, etc).
Bullshit. It's not about banning pink for girls, but opposing morons who insist on making the association, who can't seem to get that pink as a symbol of femininity is cultural, transient, and arbitrary in meaning, and who expect and even demand that everyone follow along with it or else, as if it's a moral issue, while completely oblivious to the actual moral issues of human rights.

Not sure I follow. Are you saying the problem is the toy companies, girls clothing companies, etc are somehow demanding that girls (or their parents) buy their pink products? The consumer can always say no, and if enough do, the companies will start losing money and come up with something else. Speaking of having the pink forced on you, I think the bigger problem is all the pink shit during Breast Cancer Awareness month in October. I practically have to wear sunglasses in the grocery store to keep from vomiting its so overpowering. Not to mention the NFL players who are pushed to wear pink shoes, etc during games. Anyway, I still don't think I get the whole "pink is simultaneously degrading and empowering to women" thing, and I will just have to accept that my brain will never rid itself of the cognitive dissonance.
 
Speaking of having the pink forced on you, I think the bigger problem is all the pink shit during Breast Cancer Awareness month in October. I practically have to wear sunglasses in the grocery store to keep from vomiting its so overpowering. Not to mention the NFL players who are pushed to wear pink shoes, etc during games. Anyway, I still don't think I get the whole "pink is simultaneously degrading and empowering to women" thing, and I will just have to accept that my brain will never rid itself of the cognitive dissonance.

Another snowflake in need of a safe space?
 
Speaking of having the pink forced on you, I think the bigger problem is all the pink shit during Breast Cancer Awareness month in October. I practically have to wear sunglasses in the grocery store to keep from vomiting its so overpowering. Not to mention the NFL players who are pushed to wear pink shoes, etc during games. Anyway, I still don't think I get the whole "pink is simultaneously degrading and empowering to women" thing, and I will just have to accept that my brain will never rid itself of the cognitive dissonance.

Another snowflake in need of a safe space?

I think I do need a safe space away from the pink. :)
 
Women have a better than in a lot of other countries, but their life could be better and equal to men.
 
As usual I am late to the party. I am sure that everything that can be said has been said.

From a conservative friend on Facebook today

Something a friend posted today: I found a lot of truth in this, for me...
"I am not a "disgrace to women" because I don't support the women's march. I do not feel I am a "second class citizen" because I am a woman. I do not feel my voice is "not heard" because I am a woman. I do not feel I am not provided opportunities in this life or in America because I am a woman. I do not feel that I "don't have control of my body or choices" because I am a woman. I do not feel like I am " not respected or undermined" because I am a woman.
I AM a woman.
I can make my own choices.
I can speak and be heard.
I can VOTE.
I can work if I want.
I control my body.
I can defend myself.
I can defend my family.
There is nothing stopping me to do anything in this world but MYSELF.
I do not blame my circumstances or problems on anything other than my own choices or even that sometimes in life, we don't always get what we want. I take responsibility for myself.
I am a mother, a daughter, a wife, a sister, a friend. I am not held back in life but only by the walls I choose to not go over which is a personal choice.
Quit blaming.
Take responsibility.
If you want to speak, do so. But do not expect for me, a woman, to take you seriously wearing a pink va-jay-jay hat on your head and screaming profanities and bashing men.
If you have beliefs, and speak to me in a kind matter, I will listen. But do not expect for me to change my beliefs to suit yours. Respect goes both ways.
If you want to impress me, especially in regards to women, then speak on the real injustices and tragedies that affect women in foreign countries that do not have the opportunity or means to have their voices heard.
Saudi Arabia, women can't drive, no rights and must always be covered.
China and India, infanticide of baby girls.
Afghanistan, unequal education rights.
Democratic Republic of Congo, where rapes are brutal and women are left to die, or HIV infected and left to care for children alone.
Mali, where women can not escape the torture of genital mutilation.
Pakistan, in tribal areas where women are gang raped to pay for men's crime.
Guatemala, the impoverished female underclass of Guatemala faces domestic violence, rape and the second-highest rate of HIV/AIDS after sub-Saharan Africa. An epidemic of gruesome unsolved murders has left hundreds of women dead, some of their bodies left with hate messages.
And that's just a few examples.
So when women get together in AMERICA and whine they don't have equal rights and they're marching in their clean clothes after eating a hearty breakfast, I have to shake my head. If you want to protest, and as long as it's peaceful have at it; I will not be there."

Thoughts?

SLD

What a shock. A conservative who is happy with the way that things are.

There is nothing in this that is unreasonable or that wouldn't have been unreasonable for a woman to have said in 1964, if she is happy with the current state of women in the workplace and in society in general.

To summarize, she is saying, I am happy so why aren't you? Then she unnecessarily adds that women have it much worse in most under developed countries. Somehow omitting the equally true observation that women in most developed countries have it better than women in the US.

The problem is that the fact that this woman and women like her are happy is not enough for the majority of women.

This is apparently a common mistake that conservatives in general make. It is one of many mistakes that conservatives make. To clear these up once and for all,

  • The fact that you are happy with the way that things are doesn't mean that everyone else has to be.
  • The fact is that most of our current problems are caused by some of the things that you are happy with and all of the things you choose to ignore.
  • The fact that you make enough money doesn't mean that everyone else can make enough money.
  • The fact that you have never been discriminated against doesn't mean that no one has been discriminated against.
  • The fact that there is a law or regulation against something doesn't mean that the something disappears, the laws and regulations have to be enforced.
  • The fact that the police have always treated you with respect doesn't mean that they treat everyone else that way.
  • The fact that some people are able to overcome harsh economic conditions to succeed doesn't mean that we should maintain harsh economic conditions.
  • The fact that the few succeed doesn't mean that the many can succeed.
  • The fact that you believe otherwise doesn't negate the simple fact that that 99% of man's progress has been accomplished by collective action.
  • The fact that you believe otherwise doesn't negate the fact that progress means that we are becoming more dependent on society, not less.
  • The fact that the self-regulating market has failed to supplant government in the past when we had a much simpler economy means that it is certain to fail now with the more complex economy that we have today.
  • The fact that you are happy with reduced means to provide the already rich with more doesn't mean that everyone has to be happy with reduced means or with providing the already rich with more.
  • The fact that you are happy with a misogynous, proto-fascist for a president elected with the aid of the other most dangerous world power doesn't mean that everyone else has to be happy with him.
  • ...

Please bookmark this and re-read before you post anything. It will save a lot of time in the future.

The link is, https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...-Conservatives&p=376666&viewfull=1#post376666
 
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thebeav said:
ot sure I follow. Are you saying the problem is the toy companies, girls clothing companies, etc are somehow demanding that girls (or their parents) buy their pink products? The consumer can always say no, and if enough do, the companies will start losing money and come up with something else. Speaking of having the pink forced on you, I think the bigger problem is all the pink shit during Breast Cancer Awareness month in October. I practically have to wear sunglasses in the grocery store to keep from vomiting its so overpowering. Not to mention the NFL players who are pushed to wear pink shoes, etc during games. Anyway, I still don't think I get the whole "pink is simultaneously degrading and empowering to women" thing, and I will just have to accept that my brain will never rid itself of the cognitive dissonance.

I'm amazed that one would need this explained: Oppressed groups sometimes take over a word or symbol that has been used to label or degrade them. Terms like 'gay' and 'queer' used to be considered derogatory, until the group they applied to took control of them. The color pink can be thought of the same way. I'm sure if you actually manage to sit down and think, you can think of other examples. I expect, that somewhere during the process, there are people who still think about the symbol as still derogatory, while others consider the taking over of the symbol as empowering.
 
thebeav said:
ot sure I follow. Are you saying the problem is the toy companies, girls clothing companies, etc are somehow demanding that girls (or their parents) buy their pink products? The consumer can always say no, and if enough do, the companies will start losing money and come up with something else. Speaking of having the pink forced on you, I think the bigger problem is all the pink shit during Breast Cancer Awareness month in October. I practically have to wear sunglasses in the grocery store to keep from vomiting its so overpowering. Not to mention the NFL players who are pushed to wear pink shoes, etc during games. Anyway, I still don't think I get the whole "pink is simultaneously degrading and empowering to women" thing, and I will just have to accept that my brain will never rid itself of the cognitive dissonance.

I'm amazed that one would need this explained: Oppressed groups sometimes take over a word or symbol that has been used to label or degrade them. Terms like 'gay' and 'queer' used to be considered derogatory, until the group they applied to took control of them. The color pink can be thought of the same way. I'm sure if you actually manage to sit down and think, you can think of other examples. I expect, that somewhere during the process, there are people who still think about the symbol as still derogatory, while others consider the taking over of the symbol as empowering.

Actually, this is a good point and I had thought this might be the case here. But yours is the only response with this explanation. Nor have I heard this from mainstream feminist writings. I'll have to research it a bit more.
 
Bullshit. It's not about banning pink for girls, but opposing morons who insist on making the association, who can't seem to get that pink as a symbol of femininity is cultural, transient, and arbitrary in meaning, and who expect and even demand that everyone follow along with it or else, as if it's a moral issue, while completely oblivious to the actual moral issues of human rights.

Not sure I follow. Are you saying the problem is the toy companies, girls clothing companies, etc are somehow demanding that girls (or their parents) buy their pink products? The consumer can always say no, and if enough do, the companies will start losing money and come up with something else.

No. The toy and clothing companies are following the culturally manufactured dictate that "pink means girl", and making a huge % of their products pink, and at least in pink packaging. They create ads that run during cartoons where the girls are wearing pink and playing with pink toys in pink rooms.

Little girls want what is in the the "girls" aisle at the toy and clothing stores and what they see girls wearing in the commercials, and thus they want pink. And it starts before then too. Before the kid is born, the parents get gifts for their upcoming "girl" that are pink, pink, and pink. Part of that is family and friends who buy into the "Pink means girl" mantra, but part is because those who do not give it any thought are highly likely to buy something pink just because they went to the "girls" aisle and that's all they had.

The product makers and advertisers are not the originators of the idea, but they make it impossible for any parent in the US to raise a boy or a girl without that association being formed by the time the kid is old enough to even point at what they want, and it gets stronger everyday. While so much pink is nauseating, that isn't really the problem. The total cultural dominance of the pink association is more a symptom of the real problem, which is the cultural dominance of strict gender roles about every aspect of life that are also drilled into everyone from the womb.

I recently had an vivid experience highlighting this issue. I wanted to buy some plain 1 year and 3 year toddler t-shirts so I could iron-on some patches from a local brewpub that is the only restaurant my friends two little girls had ever been to. The 3 year old calls it "The restaurant", and she associate with me because I often meet them there for dinner.

I could not find hardly any 1 or 3 year old t-shirts in the girls section that were just plain of any color. Almost everything had flowers on it. The few things that were plain were hot pink or really bright florescent hues of other colors, which clashed with black and the earth-tone colors in the patch. There was nothing grey or any earth-tone brown or green. So, I bought plain grey shirts in the "boys" section which were easy to find.

BTW, the kids and their parents loved them.

Getting back to the march: Yeah, whether intended or not, they reinforced the stereotype and strengthened the "pink means girl" association in the minds of every kid they saw it. Any other more complex political message isn't going to change the fact that every kid interpreted it as "They are wearing pink, because its by and about women." Besides, few marchers had a more complex intended message behind the pink beyond using its association with females to show unified support of females.

But again, that association isn't really the problem, just a symptom. So, using it in the service of fighting against very real problems women face does more good than harm (even if some of those problems are partly due to gender role presumptions that the pink association is symptomatic of).
 
No one's saying the association with pink is a problem! It's blind, constantly reinforced assumptions that are punished when violated as if they are moral codes.

Not that long ago, all babies wore dresses and gowns for their first few years. Pink was once associated with boys. The colors and styles are arbitrary and irrelevant.

Yet we have a substantial chunk of our population ready for outrage and condemnation of their fellow human beings over shifting cultural colors and styles.

It's not only that fear of change dominating our culture is an impediment to progress and well being. It's that our right wing disease doesn't stop with just being a nuisance. They continue on with punishment for the sinful rule breakers and catapulting to highest power people they believe will carry out that punishment. In the minds of our red state morons, women are almost always a highlighted target for punishment.

So yeah, some feminist or other might say "Fuck pink!" and I would understand her completely. For some, though, that's just an excuse to miss the point and pretend the whole complex issue boils down to that one particle.

Sometimes I wonder if some people think in such simple terms that they are unable to notice when someone else doesn't. Right wing mentality likes things simple, very simple, very black and white and no ambivalence is tolerated. How would I expect such a mind to recognize another mind that doesn't think that way? So of course our motivations are going to be questioned by someone who is only familiar with superficial thinking. Of course our views and actions are going to be automatically twisted and belittled by people who harbor inhumane, ignorant beliefs about women.
 
Speaking of having the pink forced on you, I think the bigger problem is all the pink shit during Breast Cancer Awareness month in October. I practically have to wear sunglasses in the grocery store to keep from vomiting its so overpowering. Not to mention the NFL players who are pushed to wear pink shoes, etc during games. Anyway, I still don't think I get the whole "pink is simultaneously degrading and empowering to women" thing, and I will just have to accept that my brain will never rid itself of the cognitive dissonance.

Another snowflake in need of a safe space?

It appears to me that entire Trump phenomenon is based on snowflakes.
 
Apart from LBTG which is a possible concern what's the rest got to do with Trump taking office being a bad thing. Many of these are old issues and a valid but have been around long before Trump even contemplated running for the Whitehouse..

Did the previous Which Philosophy forget to check this one as 'already bleated' or are you a parrot?

I can't copy a parrot but I love to hear the sheep bleating. When I saw all these people in pink I thought it was Barbie Convention.
 
It appears to me that entire Trump phenomenon is based on snowflakes.

Exactly. Republican snowflakes who are so sensitive to cultural change they have to lash out at anybody not like themselves. Republican snowflakes who can't find jobs so they expect the government to come in and give them jobs. Don't they believe in the free market? If Donald Trump can use all the tax laws to his benefit so that hey pays little to no taxes and that "makes [him] smart", why can't companies use all the laws available to them to maximize their profits by moving jobs overseas? If you aren't educated enough to find a different job or too lazy to look for one, why is that the government's fault? If I look at indeed.com, there are hundreds of thousands of job ads out there. The government telling companies who they can hire and where they can buy their materials sounds a lot more like socialism than capitalism. I thought Republican conservatives were against socialism. So, my advice to those people is get over yourselves, go learn a trade or something, and find your own damn job.
 
Did the previous Which Philosophy forget to check this one as 'already bleated' or are you a parrot?

I can't copy a parrot but I love to hear the sheep bleating. When I saw all these people in pink I thought it was Barbie Convention.
That reflects much more about you than it does about the people the March.
 
The only complainers are the women who can't accept the election result.
I didn't realize you cannot accept the USA election result.
No one's stopping them bleating, I mean protesting.
No one has stopped your incessant whining and mischaracterizations. So what exactly are you babbling about now?
Did you check out the leaders.
What are you babbling about?

The election was carried out according to the US election laws whether or not the system is acceptable
There is nothing wrong with protests and there is nothing wrong with critical comments about those protests. They are allowed to protest
Do you know who is leading these protests.
 
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